Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 I had never heard of the courtship model before I was married, however, I saw enough promiscuous dating and miserable marriages to know what I did NOT want. Dh and I wanted a marriage based on love and respect and common goals rather than physical attraction. We were both 25 and had been friends for 8 years then engaged for 13 months. Our first kiss was at our wedding. 17 years later, I have yet to meet anyone with a marriage as happy and stable and mutually fulfilling as ours has been. I just mention this because I don't think not kissing prior to marriage means that something is weird or awkward. I'm not pushing my own children to follow in our footsteps, but I will not be concerned if they decide on their own to take a similar route to marriage. What a great sharing. In a way, you've supported my point - that parent imposed courtship models can represent one level of decisions I do not agree with. In your past, you *chose* the courtship model. I, also, would not be concerned if "children" make that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 1) No necessarily; you might well be surprised. maybe in other topics, but i don't think so in this one. we view scripture [as opposed to *extra* Biblical rituals] so differently that there can't help but be a drastic difference in what you consider unhealthy and what i consider unhealthy. 2) That was not a necessary comment. why not? I absolutely do take great comfort in that i am not beholden to another's subjective perception of a word or idea when it is pretty clearly laid out in the context of scripture. I'm sure many take great comfort in knowing they don't have to believe the same thing i do either. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 We are conservative Christians but so far we have not had any promise ceremonies or anything of that sort with our now adult and two teens. We all get different kids. My older two are introverts who weren't socially outgoing. In particular, with my older daughter, I am not about to go into any promise ring thing or anything like that since she has issues with modesty. Issues like being terrified of surgery not because of cutting but because of not wearing a bra during it. With a child like that, the less I mention purity, chastity or anything like that the better. For a very long time she has been insisting that while she might marry, he better not want her to take off her clothes or have tea. Only just this summer has she stopped adding in the thing about no tea every time she mentions marriage. I don't think she has come arround yet to tea in marriage but I am not about to bring up any talk of purity with her. She has more than enough of that. Our youngest is around girls who talk about boyfriends or wannebe boyfriends but she has expressed no interest yet so no talks with her like that yet either. My oldest was embarassed by the whole idea of purity talks at a previous church. Oh your sweet dd! :) I was a lot like that at that age. I would attend a wedding and not understand how the bride and groom were not horribly embarrassed because *everyone* knew what they were going to be doing that night! :lol: Then I met my dh.... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 In a way, you've supported my point - that parent imposed courtship models can represent one level of decisions I do not agree with. except there are plenty of parent-imposed courtship models that have resulted in a bride and groom that are passionately in love with each other even tho they never kissed before their wedding day, so I don't think her post really matters in the grand scheme of things --you've already made up your mind. which is fine! --we're just establishing boundaries and discussing opinion at this point. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I don't think not kissing prior to marriage means that something is weird or awkward. I don't think so either. However, when I saw it played out on tv, it certainly did seem so. I totally think it depends on the people and beliefs and such of the individuals. And when we're talking about adults, I think it's a matter of conscience. I certainly don't think a couple should kiss if one or both believe it should wait for the wedding. I'm not convinced that a kiss between an engaged couple is definitely problematic though. I hope my children will simply consider God's principles and follow their consciences in regards to this (and everything else that is a matter of conscience). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 1) I'm not advocating for sex outside of marriage. I don't consider kissing "sex", however. 2) I do not see restrictions on normal affection before marriage in the Bible. I think this is one area where some courtship models move into ritualism and *extra*Biblical areas. I think you might've misunderstood me. I was wondering why you would consider affection Biblical, but you cleared it up, it's just not outlawed, so to speak ;) My comment about sex, was in regards to you saying sex was natural and normal. Many people assume that natural and normal equal healthy and I was just pointing out that circumstances could determine how healthy it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 except there are plenty of parent-imposed courtship models that have resulted in a bride and groom that are passionately in love with each other even tho they never kissed before their wedding day, so I don't think her post really matters in the grand scheme of things --you've already made up your mind. Of course there are plenty of passionately in love couples emerging from parent imposed courtship models. That answer was about why I believe brides and grooms should have kissed before the wedding; it was not meant to imply that the courtship model diminishes lust for their soon to be spouse. I do wish you'd stop tagging your posts with....those kind of comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I don't think not kissing prior to marriage means that something is weird or awkward. I would feel very awkward if I was expected to have intercourse a few hours after our first act of physical affection. I think it takes longer to warm up to the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 I think you might've misunderstood me. I was wondering why you would consider affection Biblical, but you cleared it up, it's just not outlawed, so to speak My comment about sex, was in regards to you saying sex was natural and normal. Many people assume that natural and normal equal healthy and I was just pointing out that circumstances could determine how healthy it was. Fair enough. ;) I agree about premarital sex is unhealthy for many reasons. I hope no one is reading endorsement of young, premarital sex into my posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well, I guess I'm weird then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 I would feel very awkward if I was expected to have intercourse a few hours after our first act of physical affection. I think it takes longer to warm up to the idea. This strikes me as very funny. :lol: While not my first act, I'd welcome a few hours to warm up to the idea. ;):D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 This strikes me as very funny. :lol: While not my first act, I'd welcome a few hours to warm up to the idea. ;):D I am glad! :) I think that you have been very gracious in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Of course there are plenty of passionately in love couples emerging from parent imposed courtship models. That answer was about why I believe brides and grooms should have kissed before the wedding; it was not meant to imply that the courtship model diminishes lust for their soon to be spouse. :confused: your explanation in the post specifically addressed that she chose the model herself, not about the kissing [which she said she refrained from]. So i will admit to being completely confused by your line of thinking now. I do wish you'd stop tagging your posts with....those kind of comments. what kind? the ones that point out on a discussion board the obvious, according to what i see and believe? in that case, i would say your OP was tagged with "those kind" of comments too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I do wish you'd stop tagging your posts with....those kind of comments.:iagree:Must we spar with everyone whose point of view is slightly different than our own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 My mom discouraged sex (and even tampon use!) In a way that made me ultimately feel dirty even before I "went there". My parents left me feeling similarly. Ten years into marriage I have thankfully managed to ditch that baggage. ;) I would feel very awkward if I was expected to have intercourse a few hours after our first act of physical affection. I think it takes longer to warm up to the idea. Ha! So true. ;) I cringed during the Very Duggar Wedding when it was announced at the altar that they had waited for any physical relationship. I would have been mortified! Dh and I waited, too, but we sure didn't announce it to all of our guests! :001_huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I had never heard of the courtship model before I was married, however, I saw enough promiscuous dating and miserable marriages to know what I did NOT want. Dh and I wanted a marriage based on love and respect and common goals rather than physical attraction. We were both 25 and had been friends for 8 years then engaged for 13 months. But surely physical attraction was there, too, I hope! Dh and I were friends first and are still best friends now. Before we started dating he was seriously dating another woman to whom he was not physically attracted. He had decided that he was going to find a spiritual, intelligent woman instead of whatever woman he happened to be physically attracted to. Guess what he learned? Physical attraction is a big part of the equation as well. After he stopped dating her, he thought of me and had a lightbulb moment: He could marry an intelligent, spiritual woman to whom he was attracted. :) Physical intimacy is part of the glue that holds a marriage together. I look at my parents, who have been married for over 30 years, and feel so sad for them because they don't have that intimacy. My mother was taught and continues to believe that ALL sex = bad, dirty, shameful. To her it was a necessary evil in order to have kids. I know many Christian women, particularly those who are older, who share similar thoughts. I don't think God approves. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilyK Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well, I guess I'm weird then. Don't forget "icky", "cringe"-worthy and not "developmentally appropriate.":blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well, I guess I'm weird then. Yep!;):lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycalling Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I would feel very awkward if I was expected to have intercourse a few hours after our first act of physical affection. I think it takes longer to warm up to the idea.This is the problem I have with waiting to kiss, also. That's a whole lot of expectations for one night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 :iagree:Must we spar with everyone whose point of view is slightly different than our own? Some do seem to "pit bull" every topic they can, don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 Don't forget "icky", "cringe"-worthy and not "developmentally appropriate." I invite and welcome discussion; that's why I started the topic. But please don't take my words out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I invite and welcome discussion; that's why I started the topic. But please don't take my words out of context. I think restricting affection, kissing are....icky so one out of three is at least spot-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 I think restricting affection, kissing are....icky so one out of three is at least spot-on. Peek? Have a great rest of the weekend! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 :iagree:Must we spar with everyone whose point of view is slightly different than our own? everyone? nah. only the ones that open w/ cringe....icky...unhealthy...and developmentally inappropriate for a parent to parent. :D why not? it's a discussion board. If you're gonna post it, be ready to get called on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Peek? Have a great rest of the weekend! :) you too! :D [no snark!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOM24WONDERS Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I, nor my sister, had had any type of sexual relationship before our wedding night - and neither had our spouses. We were not afraid in the least. My mom was so open and honest and just plain wonderful to explain everything to us (have I ever mentioned how awesome my parents are?), that we just felt extremely comfortable and at ease. Purity is about body, mind, soul - the whole works. It matters not if one "makes it" to their wedding night as a virgin if they've wasted their purity on lust, pornography, or the like. Purity isn't just about sex. It's about a lifestyle. It's about keeping your heart, your mind, your eyes, your thoughts, your soul -all of it pure. I am certainly not oblivious to the fact that young adults have natural reactions to one another - God made them that way. It's what they DO with those reactions in terms of not only physical actions, but their thought processes and such. It's something that's taught from birth. And trust me, there is nothing more amazing beautiful than being able to wear that white wedding dress before your family and friends and actually have it MEAN something. There is nothing more beautiful that spending that first night together, knowing that you each saved that special, one-time-only gift for the other person. Nothing could make you feel more beautiful and special and just plain wonderful. I had a wonderful mentor of mine tell me once as a young adult that she was pressured by some other young ladies to have sex. They constantly made fun of her, calling her prudish, etc. One day she told them something I'll never forget - she said, "Anytime, anyday, anywhere, and at any moment I can be just like you, but you can never be like me." Those are profound words and they stuck with me throughout all these years. I think knowing that our children will have these feelings is common sense. I think accepting that they will act on them is foolishness. You only have one first kiss, one first time - you should want to save that for the man of your dreams - it's an amazing gift to give him. It makes him know that you were waiting just for him. WOW! It gives me goosebumps all over again just thinking of it. As a woman, there wasn't anything more amazing my husband could have given me than to know that he'd never shared himself with anyone else, but that he'd saved himself for ME. That I was that precious and wonderful to him that he would save that one special gift for me. It makes me want to cry - something both my husband and I did on our wedding night because of the overwhelming feeling of love that we had for each other at that moment. I guess I'm just at the total opposite end of the spectrum. I want my daughters to be ladies and my sons to be gentlemen - in the truest sense of the word. Honor and respect are things that are sorely lacking in our depraved society today. I pray that I can at least raise 4 up to reject the perversity of this world and to choose the high road of beauty. It is the perfect plan - God wrote it and it can't get any better! Courtship is a beautiful, old, traditional way of life - one that my children have heartily embraced. We've never told them they'd be forced to do it, they've just chosen the high road. They want something special and better for their lives. They know that God has a plan for their life and they are waiting on Him to see where it leads and to whom. It will certainly be worth the wait. They have their parents, aunt/uncle, and grandparents (who, btw, did the same as their daughters) to look up to - to see what waiting on God can do - produce a marriage so wonderful and so full of love that it just stands out as odd in this day and time. Ok, good night. I want to go snuggle up against my husband, my love, and the most amazing man on earth. Thanks for the always insightful threads. They keep me intrigued and always searching, studying for the Truth. God bless you all :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOM24WONDERS Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 My parents just celebrated 40 years of marriage and they are the most loving couple I know. They hold hands, never leave without a kiss and an I love you, and call each other multiple times a day. Intimacy is a huge part of their relationship - probably more now that all the kids are gone than it was able to be before! They are more in love now than they were in 1969. I have always dreamed of that and I'm working really hard to achieve it! I am a Christian, come from a Christian background - and if you read my other post know that my parents, my sister and her husband, and I and my husband ALL waited - and we all agree - sex is GOOD. When asked why we have so many children, dh just says straightfaced, "We rather enjoy the process" - which is entirely true! :) But surely physical attraction was there, too, I hope! Dh and I were friends first and are still best friends now. Before we started dating he was seriously dating another woman to whom he was not physically attracted. He had decided that he was going to find a spiritual, intelligent woman instead of whatever woman he happened to be physically attracted to. Guess what he learned? Physical attraction is a big part of the equation as well. After he stopped dating her, he thought of me and had a lightbulb moment: He could marry an intelligent, spiritual woman to whom he was attracted. :) Physical intimacy is part of the glue that holds a marriage together. I look at my parents, who have been married for over 30 years, and feel so sad for them because they don't have that intimacy. My mother was taught and continues to believe that ALL sex = bad, dirty, shameful. To her it was a necessary evil in order to have kids. I know many Christian women, particularly those who are older, who share similar thoughts. I don't think God approves. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 Thanks for the always insightful threads. They keep me intrigued and always searching, studying for the Truth. God bless you all __________________ Emily, Your post was beautiful and sincere. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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