What do you do with a child who has poor reasoning?

[stephanie]

My ds12 has so much trouble with any form of mind benders, Dr. Dooriddles, 5 min. murder mysteries. We try to do Logic Lift-off, but he always comes up with some off the wall answer. He is my dc that does have trouble with comprehension, ADHD, and SPD so I do consider that. My question is should I just let him do critical thinking with his younger sibs. who do Logic Countdown, and way below grade level Mindbenders/Dr. Dooriddles? He can do those, but I did't know if it would benefit or not. I try to just do every day critical thinking skills with him, but he's a tough one. For example, we have a parakeet who needed some food. My dh went to the store and got some for us. My dh came in and handed me the bag and of course he asked what was in it. I said, "Bird food." Then he asks me what it's for. So I ask him to think about it and what does he think it could possibly be for. Why would we have bird food? BTW, he's the one who told me we were out of food. After a few minutes of me trying to prompt him with questions, he still shrugged his shoulders and said, "I don't know." Every day, all day he has this kind of struggle. I have no problem handling it,but if there's something I can use to help him then I'd love to hear about it! Thanks so much.

[Baseballmom]

My 12 ds is exactly the same way. We are struggling also with the fact that his younger brother is more on the gifted side. I look forward to others responses and ideas

[Karenciavo]

How does he do with games? Even something as simple as Tic-Tac-Toe? Is he able to reason enough to think ahead to possible outcomes? I would try fun games like Chinese Checkers, Blokus (2 players only at first), and Rush Hour.

[Tami]

I have an 11 year old adhder who is the exact same way. Adhders are "normally" behind their peers in this area. My gut feeling is that pushing too hard in the formal logic area too soon will only result in the child feeling like they are stupid. Adhders have enough to deal with already without the added pressure.

 

Your child may not be ready for logic curriclums until age 14, 15, or later. What is the hurry?

[Tami]

I don't know if your child has problems with social skills and "reading" people, but a really helpful book for this is Social Skill Activities for Special Kids by Mannix. The off the wall comments can lead to social problems, in my experience. It also has an extremely high annoyance value. : ) This book and others like it can help if it is an issue for you as it is for us.

 

Just a random thought!

[Myrtle]

We directly taught our ADHD 11yo son symbolic logic from an old 1960s algebra book.

 

The modern (as in still in publication) logic books for students that we have seen have the kid study logic as an academic subject rather than training them to think logically. In addition, many of these were simply asking to much of a younger child or one that can't focus very well. There seems to be a complete absence of good logic programs for middle school students. Also other programs which are age appropriate, while providing entertaining opportunities for students to use logic in activities, never explicitly teach the student how to go about doing this.

 

The areas that helped our son the most, and me as well, was learning what the converse was, why not to assume the converse, what the contrapositive is and why one can use it to arrive at a conclusion. He also learned how to negate expressions with "or" and "and" in them--both natural language, and mathematical expressions. In the end he was able to prove mathematical theorems using proof by contradiction and proof using the contrapositive "Prove that the additive identity is unique." He was also able to follow adult conversations that were political or philsophical in nature a little better than before. Let me emphasize, this is an eleven year old ADHD dyslexic kid with a tested IQ of only slightly above average.

 

The other program that we used with him that teaches how to apply logic was Mathew Lipman's Philosophy for Kids series. This is still being sold by the publisher and is quite expensive. The child reads a short novel and the teacher's manual (which is several inches thick) then provides activities and topics for discussion. While there is much more going on in the novel than logic, here is a short passage from Harry Stottlemeier which is the 5th/6th grade level.

 

Now, sitting at his desk, Harry turned over in his mind the conversation between Tony and TImmy. "If ther are many ways of forming a number, " he said to himself, couldn't there be lots of different words all equal t the same word? Like 'father' cold aslo be experessed as 'daddy' or 'dad' or 'pop'." Then, in a flash, he had an idea. "Coul it be that words like 'all' and "no' are really like the number ten that Tony was explaning to Timmy? Because if that were so, then all sorts of other setences could be changed into sentences begining with either the word 'all' or the word 'no'!

But when he tried to figure out some other setnences that he could change around the way he wanted to, he couldn't think of a single one...

 

 

It is unfortunate that logic was removed from the curriculum in the 1970s. Sometimes I joke that we are heading back into the Middle Ages when it comes to education, but even in the Middle Ages logic was taught.

[Claire]

The bird food example shows a problem with making inferences. A friend whose son has the type of problem you describe started with "Lollipop Logic" from Rainbow Resource.

 

Another approach you may want to consider is IdeaChain from http://www.mindprime.com . Most of us develop visualization skills automatically, but some people don't. IdeaChain teaches how to visualize in a very explicit way. Click on the "why people had problems with comprehension" tab in the upper lefthand corner of the website to get a walk-through explanation of how visualization skills affect comprehension. What I am wondering is if your son ever visualized (from your verbal conversations) birds actually eating bird food. I'm guessing he did not, which is why he was unable to make the connection and infer from the food that it would need to be given to the birds to eat.

[Sophia]

titled with children's names?

I was able to read some excerpts and found them interesting.

Thanks,

Sophia

[stephanie]

The bird food example shows a problem with making inferences. A friend whose son has the type of problem you describe started with "Lollipop Logic" from Rainbow Resource.

 

Another approach you may want to consider is IdeaChain from http://www.mindprime.com . Most of us develop visualization skills automatically, but some people don't. IdeaChain teaches how to visualize in a very explicit way. Click on the "why people had problems with comprehension" tab in the upper lefthand corner of the website to get a walk-through explanation of how visualization skills affect comprehension. What I am wondering is if your son ever visualized (from your verbal conversations) birds actually eating bird food. I'm guessing he did not, which is why he was unable to make the connection and infer from the food that it would need to be given to the birds to eat.

 

Claire, so what is it that he can't assume that it's for the bird? He saw the bird food bag, and being that he told me we were out, then what do you call it when he can't assume that? I'll try the Lollipop logic first then move up. It's not even that I have to do logic/critical thinking curriculum with him. I just want him to be able to make logical conclusions in his day-to-day life.

[Michelle T]

My guy is 11.5, also ADHD and LD's. He has the same problem, just absolutely no logical thinking, no common sense, and no skill at making inference or generalizing information.

 

We've been doing Logic Liftoff, and most of it is way beyond DS"s ability. I've just dropped it for now, but very interested in reading this thread.

MIchelle T

[stephanie]

My guy is 11.5, also ADHD and LD's. He has the same problem, just absolutely no logical thinking, no common sense, and no skill at making inference or generalizing information.

 

We've been doing Logic Liftoff, and most of it is way beyond DS"s ability. I've just dropped it for now, but very interested in reading this thread.

MIchelle T

 

It's so good to hear that I'm not alone in this. Some days I just wonder what I could have done differently for him. His 3 other sibs. I consider somewhat gifted. He is not my biological son so I understand that there are other factors that may come into play. I'm just relieved to hear there are so many others just like him.

[Claire]

Claire, so what is it that he can't assume that it's for the bird? He saw the bird food bag, and being that he told me we were out, then what do you call it when he can't assume that? I'll try the Lollipop logic first then move up. It's not even that I have to do logic/critical thinking curriculum with him. I just want him to be able to make logical conclusions in his day-to-day life.

 

It's a problem with making inferences. It's hard for someone who has no difficulty in this area to understand why someone else can't see the obvious. I'm trying to remember an example my friend sent me. I think it was a picture of a pile of leaves and another picture of a man with a rake. Her son could not connect the two pictures to infer that the man had probably raked the leaves into a pile. Incidentally, her son did improve a lot in this area but they had to work on it.

 

I have not used this or heard anything about it, but in Googling I came up with the card game to help teach how to make inferences. My bet is that you need to start at a very basic level and work up. Here is the website:

http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?id=896

[Kathy in MD]

This series is probably fine for children who have inate logical skills and just need to develop them. But for a child who truly struggles, the series leaves too many gaps in teaching HOW to think! (Do you get the idea that I don't like this series?:rolleyes:)

 

Building Thinking Skills is far better at teaching how to think. Each set of excercises start with the ultra-simple that are intuitively understood by the even the most logically handicapped. The teacher then demonstrates/pulls out the thought processes that allowed the student to solve it. The succeeding excercises build on this until they become complex. This is not a book you can just hand off to a struggling student though. You need to use the teacher's instructions, demonstrate and give alternate possible solutions. I would also start with a below age level book for a struggling student.

 

But I don't think even BTS on it's own can solve thinking problems such as your and my ds have. I didn't use Idea Chain with my ds, though I've considered it. What I did use was the home-based version of PACE and Learning Rx. Unfortunately the home based version is no longer available. If possible, I'd go to Learning Rx because they have a program focusing on logic and math skills not available through a PACE provider. If not, PACE would also be helpful. However I'd probably do Idea Chain before going to either PACE or Learning Rx. From reading descriptions Claire has writen in the past, Idea Chain would be the logical first step.

[unsinkable]

I might be way off base here...but I'll share anyway.

 

My dd (almost 14) regularly does says things like that. She has medical issues (epilepsy) and is a strong visual-spatial learner. She has a hard time finding the correct words quickly enough. SHe often has an elaborate explanation of why she just asked what bird food is for but she just can't get the correct words out quickly.

 

In her mind, she isn't even asking what I often think she is asking. In this case (and she has asked stuff like "what's the pencil sharpener for?") she might have noticed a difference in the bag and assumed it was a different kind of food or she might have known there was another bag of bird food in the house and was wondering why you just bought a new bag.

 

She also substitutes incorrect words all the time and she doesn't make sense but she can't understand why I don't understand and I can't understand why she can't understand. Like today, she thought she was saying petition and she was saying pension. She had a magnifying glass and was looking at an illustration to read the names on the pension.

 

I guess what I am saying is w/some kids their brain is thinking one thing and their mouth is saying another.

 

HTH

unsinkable

[Perry]

I have a 10 year old with similar issues. Another program you might want to take a look at is SRA Reasoning and Writing. We just started hs'ing him in April, so I can't speak to the long term effectiveness of it, but so far I really like the approach. Read more here, here, and here. The teacher presentation book can be difficult to find used, and new editions are expensive. If you decide to use it, you HAVE to have the teacher presentation book, which is not the same as the teacher guide. It is a scripted program, and all the teaching is in the presentation book.

[TracyR]

My 8yr old is the same way . Except she doesn't have ADHD . She reads GREAT but has poor comprehension and is just a BLONDE ( sorry all of you who are :>) She comes up with some of the strangest things I've ever heard if I ask her questions . I worry about her . LOL .No , I really do .

Math is a poor subject for her as well . She cringes and just plain out fights with me in doing word problems . I don't know what it is really .

She had seizure as an infant until she was 3yrs old and I like to blame it on that. She also has a hard time reading people . If your telling her something she thinks you hate her , or your mad at her when its not the case at all . She doesn't understand silly sayings and takes them literally . Like if you said its raining cats and dogs . She is literally looking out the window for where the cats and dogs are .

She isn't hyperactive by any stretch of the matter . So I'm not sure why she deals with the same thing .

[Sahamamama]

Wow, Stephanie, that's a stumper. :confused: Maybe time would help him? He is twelve years old, with some developmental issues, so perhaps you could continue with the logic puzzles that he CAN do, and gradually see if you can ease him into the next level up.

[Peela]

I am relieved by this thread, because I didnt realise so many other kids suffered a logic deficit! And, after seeing so many people here rave about the Dandilion Logic books I was rather disappointed to find that my poor son just struggled so hard with Logic Liftoff. we gave up fairly quickly before he felt too disheartened.

My daughter sailed through all her Logic books. I thought it must be easy, but my ds12 finds them sooooo hard.

 

I ended up giving up for now. I feel his mathematics book, in particular problem solving but all of it, really, teaches enough logical thinking for him, for now. It's important with my son, and probably many LD kids, to keep him feeling successful. Failing miserably at logic puzzles, even quite easy ones, was certainly not doing that. I would rather he do something he can do that challenges him a little, even if its several grades lower, than have him make too many mistakes.

I haven't gone any further with it. My son is improving all the time with his mathematics (he has an Australian maths book that is designed for LD kids who find it hard to follow instructions, and it is very clearly laid out,and it is still hard for him, but he is progressing).

I am thinking it may be another year or three before we are ready to tackle Logic as a separate subject, and if we don't get there, but he can untangle mathematical word problems,and follow instructions (neither of which are easy for him now- he more often than not just guesses) then I will be satisfied.

He did do some of the Mind Benders. He struggled but got through those first easy books. But the Logic Liftoff was very demoralising.

[kalanamak]

And cards! The games start easy and get complicated, you develop fine motor skills holding and playing them, they have numbers on them, you have to learn new rules with each game, they teach social things like private vs. public and losing gracefully.

 

Cards!

[Tami]

I am using a writing program this year that focuses on structure and organization. I have gone through and written it into my history plans, and I can recommend this to children who have poor organization, reasoning, and logic skills. It is a cheap program called "Four Square Writing." I have the Original and the one focused on writing in the content areas.

 

We are also giving Greek a try by learning our Greek letters over the summer and beginning Open Texture in the fall.

 

I believe that the logic stage will come to adhd kids, but at a different pace. We will probably introduce something like Thinking Tool Box in 8th or 9th grade, and go to Fallacy Detective after that. I noted that Ambleside does not recommend these until high school, and that made me feel a little better!

 

I plan to focus on logical thinking through writing essays and critiques in high school. However, what she really needs to work on right now is structuring and organizing her thinking, reasoning, and writing. Graphic organizers seem to work well for her, and I have high hopes for the Four Square Writing method.

[Tami]

Wow, Stephanie, that's a stumper. :confused: Maybe time would help him? He is twelve years old, with some developmental issues, so perhaps you could continue with the logic puzzles that he CAN do, and gradually see if you can ease him into the next level up.

 

What would you recommend? My dd is 11, but has the reasoning skills of a 8-9 year old. She would hate anything too babyish for her. I'd love some ideas!

[Peela]

We will probably introduce something like Thinking Tool Box in 8th or 9th grade, and go to Fallacy Detective after that. I noted that Ambleside does not recommend these until high school, and that made me feel a little better!

 

 

Hi Tami, those books are written for kids age 13 and up.

Its interesting how homeschoolers often try or expect to do things earlier. I have. We have read those books together,and my logic challenged child was ok with them- they are different to logic puzzles- but i don't think he engaged with them well enough to say he got much out of them. I intend on having both mind do them again when AO recommends them.

[Kathleen in VA]

Wow, I'm reading this thread and I'm thinking of my ds12, but then I start to realize I am really lacking in logic skills myself. Here's a for instance. One day I was trying to open a can of spaghetti sauce with my electric can opener. There was a dent in the top of the can and I knew when the can opener got to that point it would get stuck so I was completely perplexed and just stood there. I was almost on the verge of tears when dh walked over and turned the can upside down. He never said anything:). My problem was with the label. The label indicates that the can is "right-side up" and my brain could not get past that. I just couldn't think that without the label it is the same on both ends. Whew, did I feel stupid.

 

I'm going to turn 50 this year and I still do this sort of thing. I'm just glad dh and my dc accept me for who I am and help me figure stuff out. And just so you know, I actually have a very high IQ - reading comprehension is very high - I just don't see the obvious sometimes. It can be very frustrating - it was in school - because my teachers knew my IQ and couldn't figure out what the ding dong was the matter with me. They had very high expectations and very often I was just simply incapable of meeting them.

 

I suppose that is one of the reasons I chose homeschooling. I did not want any of my children to suffer that frustration and oftentimes, humiliation.

 

All that to say, some folks never do kick in with the logic. We manage somehow thanks to loving folks around us.

[Michelle T]

I am relieved by this thread, because I didnt realise so many other kids suffered a logic deficit! And, after seeing so many people here rave about the Dandilion Logic books I was rather disappointed to find that my poor son just struggled so hard with Logic Liftoff. we gave up fairly quickly before he felt too disheartened.

My daughter sailed through all her Logic books. I thought it must be easy, but my ds12 finds them sooooo hard.

 

 

He did do some of the Mind Benders. He struggled but got through those first easy books. But the Logic Liftoff was very demoralising.

 

 

Peela, my 12 yo DS also found Logic Liftoff too hard. He did enjoy the Lollipop Logic though. We have recently started Building Thinking Skills, the book for 4th - 6th graders, so on the young side for him. There are many pages that are definitely beyond him at this point, but I just pick and choose pages I feel will be somewhat challenging and yet doable. I figure the book is so thick that by the time we finish the easier pages, he'll be more mature and we can go back and do some of the pages that we are skipping now.

Michelle T

[Quad Shot Academy]

The bird food example shows a problem with making inferences.

 

:iagree: My son was helped the most by doing LA workbooks dealing with making inferences, drawing conclusions and such. Also, a map skills series was very good for him. All of the workbooks are about $5 and I have him work through one at a time.

[shalom22]

Wow, thanks for this thread. My dd(11) doesn't have very good logic skills and it has always baffled me. She has not been diagnosed with adhd or anything else, but what I have been reading on this thread gives me some insight into her thinking and reasoning. I will have to do more research on this matter.

[stephanie]

Wow, I'm reading this thread and I'm thinking of my ds12, but then I start to realize I am really lacking in logic skills myself. Here's a for instance. One day I was trying to open a can of spaghetti sauce with my electric can opener. There was a dent in the top of the can and I knew when the can opener got to that point it would get stuck so I was completely perplexed and just stood there. I was almost on the verge of tears when dh walked over and turned the can upside down. He never said anything:). My problem was with the label. The label indicates that the can is "right-side up" and my brain could not get past that. I just couldn't think that without the label it is the same on both ends. Whew, did I feel stupid.

 

I'm going to turn 50 this year and I still do this sort of thing. I'm just glad dh and my dc accept me for who I am and help me figure stuff out. And just so you know, I actually have a very high IQ - reading comprehension is very high - I just don't see the obvious sometimes. It can be very frustrating - it was in school - because my teachers knew my IQ and couldn't figure out what the ding dong was the matter with me. They had very high expectations and very often I was just simply incapable of meeting them.

 

I suppose that is one of the reasons I chose homeschooling. I did not want any of my children to suffer that frustration and oftentimes, humiliation.

 

All that to say, some folks never do kick in with the logic. We manage somehow thanks to loving folks around us.

 

Thanks for posting this! Often I find myself just not snapping to things whereas dh always just gets it. I often will be stumped by something, and he will easily solve it. So I get that some people are just more logically gifted than others. It seems lately that ds13 (he just turned 13) is worsening in his logic. I just told dh that maybe his hormones are causing him to hit a down time, but he's even having more problems in getting out what he's trying to say. His definitely hitting puberty and he's becoming more easily frustrated. For me there's a fine line between hormones and attitude so I've been trying to sit back and let him go through the motions while he gets comfy in his emotions. As for his logic, we've started playing a lot more games, he's been doing mosaic pictures that require him to do a lot of thinking, and I've let him start building things-like using dad's tools. He messes up, then has to start over after he figures out where he's gone wrong. I've found this works best for him-everyday life examples to learn critical thinking. More importantly, It doesn't leave him feeling defeated.

[stephanie]

Tami, I was looking at the Four Square Writing on it's website. Which set do you start with. I see that there are different areas of writing, but is there a method in it? What do you recommend?