Libby in Texas Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Ok, our previously homeschooled 10th grade dd just finished her first year in a private, non-accredited Christian school. She mentioned to me over the weekend that she was concerned that in her math class they only got to lesson 80. The school uses Saxon and she was taking Algebra II (she took Algebra I in 9th). The Alg. II textbook has 129 lessons. Did they do enough work to be ready for the next Saxon level, which I think is Advance Mathematics? I'm really concerned! That's almost 50 lessons missed!! Isn't this the level where you do not want to be skimping on math? She has asked me to homeschool her over the summer to finish the course, or at least most of it. She said it's that important to her. I don't know what to do. I wouldn't mind doing it. If you ladies on this board tell me she's not ready for the 11th grade I'll homeschool her. So do I? She is definitely going to college into a science field so I guess that's why I've hit the panic button. I'll wait for a clear concensus before I proceed. Thanks! Blessings, Libby in Texas :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaLisa Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Egads! What happened?! How did they only manage 80 lessons in 180ish school days? Anyway, yes, I would definitely finish the book this summer. The Saxon books are notorious for lots of review in the first lessons -- less so in the Algebra books, but still lots of review. The new stuff always comes in the later lessons with Saxon. Especially because Saxon is incremental; the first lessons will being to introduce the concept, but it will not be fully developed until later lessons. ::sigh:: Not what you want to hear, but probably what your dd intuitively knew. :tongue_smilie: Good for her for asking to finish during the summer! Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Learn it over the summer. Kudos to your daughter for taking charge of her education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Yes, what a wise and bright young lady you have. I would definitely be concerned with a school only doing 80 lessons in a school year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 :iagree: Learn it over the summer. Kudos to your daughter for taking charge of her education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeatherInWI Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 :iagree: Me, too!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Did they start with another book, first? Can you ask the teacher how that worked? I'd want to gently talk with the teacher and the principal.... (for the good of future students) Carrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet in WA Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Our experience with Saxon was that you could safely skip about the last 20 lessons. Because of Saxon's design, the concepts taught in them are thoroughly covered (not as review) in the next level. However, the problem sets in these last lessons do have value because they allow the student to complete the practice of previously learned concepts. However, all things considered, the last 20 lessons are safely skipped. But the last 49? Not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I'm rather appalled. I would definitely talk to the teacher and then inform the principal if you did not get a good response--Hopefully the teacher won't pull some carp like, Oh, some kids couldn't handle the lessons, so we just did what we could or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I'm rather appalled. I would definitely talk to the teacher and then inform the principal if you did not get a good response--Hopefully the teacher won't pull some carp like, Oh, some kids couldn't handle the lessons, so we just did what we could or whatever. I'd let the principal know either way....(good response or not) Because this would really put your child below where they should be. AND, because of her eagerness to finish the book (and I'm assuming she was making decent to good grades...) doesn't look like a student problem. Carrie:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Our experience with Saxon was that you could safely skip about the last 20 lessons. Because of Saxon's design, the concepts taught in them are thoroughly covered (not as review) in the next level. However, the problem sets in these last lessons do have value because they allow the student to complete the practice of previously learned concepts. However, all things considered, the last 20 lessons are safely skipped. But the last 49? Not so much. Our experience is that you can skip the first 20 lessons or so. The last lessons are the ones that have been the most valuable for us. But no one in my crew stayed with Saxon past 76 so Algebra may be a whole different thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I know in our public school (high school) math classes seldom get beyond Chapter 6 or 7 of a 12 chapter book. They keep advancing the kids anyway... and our scores (national and state) are in the pits. It's one of the BIG reasons I pulled mine out to homeschool when my oldest reached 9th grade... Part of our problem is that we have gone to block scheduling (one semester courses similar to college). However, unlike college, the kids do NOT put in much effort at home... so don't really pick up the material... so teachers need to slow down for them to learn (failure is NOT an option - just ask the parents that complain to the admin, etc). Then there are weeks devoted to testing and other such time issues. It's pretty sad... and very frustrating. According to my state evaluator, kids need only finish 2/3rds of a book to call it complete. Mind you, we don't get that far in ps, but I guess no one really checks. Edited to add... MY kids finish ALL lessons in their books... I'd have her finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Sounds suspicious to me. Was the rest of her coursework similarly inadequate/sub-standard? (May need to rethink the school, in other words.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornflower Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I would finish the book over the summer. I think at this stage of math the book needs to be completed. We have about 15 lessons in our math book to go. We are done with everything else, but keep pluggin away to finish math. Your daughter may feel more confident going in to next year if you work over the summer. Take care, Cornflower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoriM Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I think it's a great thing for your daughter to continue studying math over the summer. HOWEVER, I will say I completely disagree with the consensus here, and say that finishing 80 lessons of Saxon is about the norm for a classroom setting. In fact, our Saxon training rep specifically stated to us that the books are designed so that lessons 30-80 are the core content of the text. Anything after lesson 80 is the "introduction" of the concept (and thus will be in the "core" content of the next text), and prior to lesson 30 is remediation of prior material. So, at most, your daughter has missed out on the "toe-dipping" stage of learning in those concepts, and will have to wade right in next fall. Your daughter will see everything she needs for Advanced Math in the lessons she covers in Advanced Math next year. But more practice in the end of Algebra 2 is fine for facility and experience. I'm all for additional numeracy in our students. Honestly, it's one of the reasons why Saxon is so strong in the homeschool market--we do about 30% more work than the average classroom student! I constantly comfort homeschoolers who are sad they were unable to finish the book in a year (for a variety of reasons) that they are right on par with their PS counterparts. Now, since most hsers are not satisfied to be "on par" with the PS, I do usually say just finish the book after a break, and pick up the new book when you are done...but Lesson 100 is absolutely sufficient. If I were you (and your daughter) I might do 20 more lessons over the summer, but would NOT feel required to finish the textbook. Ironically, I am finishing my 6th grade class with Lesson 76 and my Algebra 1 class with Lesson 80 this year. My Pre-Algebra group finished the book, but only by condensing many lessons into "one" day's work, and my careful selection of a smaller subset of problems...not by working all 30 problems of every lesson. Now, my 6th graders were doing 7th grade math, so they are actually a full year ahead of the game (grin) not half-a-book behind...and we are adding in the new "Course 3" book for 7th grade, so they get another year at pre-Algebra. But I'd definitely take my own daughters into Advanced Math after finishing 80 lessons of Algebra 2. Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) I would certainly help her to finish the book over the summer break, but I'd be doing some other things too: Checking to be sure that previous lessons were adequately covered Checking to be sure that class work in other subject areas was adequate Re-thinking educational venue for the fall ...and, to top it all off, {probably because, remember, I'm grumpy today...} I'd be asking for a refund of money spent on tuition. :angry: IMO, you didn't get what you paid for, and should at least be compensated for the cost of a tutor over the summer (even if the tutor is you). A little behind would have been ok with me. Not great, but ok. That far behind...in a sense, they've robbed your family of both money and time that cannot be regained. Edited June 5, 2009 by Julie in CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaLisa Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) HOWEVER, I will say I completely disagree with the consensus here, and say that finishing 80 lessons of Saxon is about the norm for a classroom setting. In fact, our Saxon training rep specifically stated to us that the books are designed so that lessons 30-80 are the core content of the text. Anything after lesson 80 is the "introduction" of the concept (and thus will be in the "core" content of the next text), and prior to lesson 30 is remediation of prior material. So, at most, your daughter has missed out on the "toe-dipping" stage of learning in those concepts, and will have to wade right in next fall. Gee, I hate to quibble with one of our math experts :tongue_smilie: but I like my kids to do the last lessons because new concepts are introduced more fully. As I recall, the next time you see them in Saxon, Saxon assumes you've seen the concept and worked some problems, so the explanation may not be as thorough. Now, if you're LoriM and you can wing your way through the review lesson and teach circles around it, it may not matter. But, for me, it just helps me out to have seen the concept in the later lessons before we review them again in the next book. (And I'm speaking upper math here. I can wing my way through a fraction lesson. :001_smile:) HTH, Lisa Edited June 5, 2009 by FloridaLisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libby in Texas Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 I really have no idea how this happened. My daughter enrolled in late Thanksgiving; she said that she picked up right where they were at that particular time. I know some of you are questioning the quality of education she was receiving and honestly so was I. For instance, they had one end-of-the-year science fair in late April for the middle & high school. The subjects & experiments these students chose weren't as sophisticated and elaborate as another science fair my other homeschooled children had participated in March-----and this was a fair for K-8. The younger homeschooled kids definitely were more advanced in their ideas than these high schoolers. Then the school's Spanish teacher quit abruptly in early April and my daughter was told she'd be given full credit. In her science class she was put in a corner all year by herself to teach herself A Beka's 9th grade Science of the Physical Creation since the rest of the class was doing Biology (she had taken Biology in 9th already). No labs, no nothing. No communication from the teacher other than to give her the reading assignments, tests, and quizzes. The history teacher is a member of their church and his daughter was in the same grade with mine. Before my daughter started attending this school, his daughter was supposed to be what the school considered "a genius". Well, when the entire school took their California Achievement Test in March the history teacher's daughter scored 90% in only 2 subjects while my daughter scored 90% in 3 subjects. This history teacher got a "friendly rivalry" going between his daughter & mine about who would be the valedictorian in their senior year. Those were his words, "friendly rivalry". Interestingly, his class was the only class my daughter seemed to struggle in. Got high B's sometimes. Didn't understand that one when she had high A's in all her other subjects. Even Algebra II. Oh yeah, his son just graduated this year and he was the valedictorian. When I'd check her online grades there seemed to be varying discrepancies from subject to subject between what the school said my daughter got and what her real grade was on her actual assignment--which she produced for proof time and again to me. There was never any contact or parent meetings initiated by the school or teachers throughout the entire year. I took mental notes of all these incidents. At the science fair I was excited to finally meet her teachers to introduce myself and try to set up some sort of meeting. They seemed disinterested (or maybe distracted by the science fair going on). I then tried making further conversation about my daughter's progress but again, nothing. The last straw was when her final report card was emailed to us my daughter was furious because they said she made 4 A's and 3 B's. She showed me all her paperwork and grades and they seem to back up her claim. Her history teacher kept all her assignments for the last 2 weeks of school. History was one of her B's. He was not her English teacher but for some reason he gave her her final grade, a B. She'd had high A's all year. I don't mean to make the school sound so bad, but this is really what happened. These people seem really nice. When I'd drop off my daughter or pick her up her teachers would wave or something, stuff like that. The principal was always pleasant from a distance. I never really made an effort to deal with all this because I kept trying to remain positive & optimistic. Kept trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. You know, trying to be the "good Christian" and not be so quick to judge. I was always rushing when I'd drop her off & pick her up because back home I still had 3 others kidlets waiting for me. I kept telling myself I needed to do something, anything, but I kept procrastinating. Probably because the group of kids at the school are really sweet and my daughter seemed to like it there. She seemed so happy socially but unsure academically. All the teachers are chosen only from the church body. It's a tiny church. The school had a total of 150 students from K-12. I really think they need to raise their standards and take them a lot more seriously. So, after reading all your advice I've decided to homeschool her and at least get up to lesson 130 or so. For science she'd been doing the labs here at home on the weekends and we're halfway through those. Just not sure how many labs she needs to do for the course to be officially considered a "lab course". Anyone? I guess I don't really expect anyone to answer to what I've mentioned about the school. I mostly just had to let it out. If anyone would like to further let me know what they think, about the math/science, or the school itself as a whole, I'd really be interested. I feel soooooooo much better though for having shared this. Thanks for letting me and for "listening". Oh and by the way, she's not returning next year. Sincerely, Libby in Texas :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Oh and by the way, she's not returning next year. :) That would sum up my thoughts exactly. I would be peeved to say the least... but it sounds like you won't get anywhere protesting. Besides the obvious lack of education provided, programs like this give Christianity a bad name and reputation... It's sad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoriM Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Gee, I hate to quibble with one of our math experts :tongue_smilie: but I like my kids to do the last lessons because new concepts are introduced more fully. As I recall, the next time you see them in Saxon, Saxon assumes you've seen the concept and worked some problems, so the explanation may not be as thorough. Now, if you're LoriM and you can wing your way through the review lesson and teach circles around it, it may not matter. But, for me, it just helps me out to have seen the concept in the later lessons before we review them again in the next book. (And I'm speaking upper math here. I can wing my way through a fraction lesson. :001_smile:) HTH, Lisa Last year (the year before I was hired) the school was dismayed by the fact that the previous class finished the math textbook in March (working 1 lesson per day in typical Saxon fashion) and the teacher had to finish out the year with extra material...but the parents were pretty sure no one understood math. When I got those kids in August, they may have *finished* the book, but they didn't know their math. So, I had to supplement and fill in many extra days' lessons on basic fraction, decimal and percents that I would expect a sixth grader to have mastered previously. Couple that with the fact that we skipped a book this year and bumped up our math a level...and you get 80 lessons of the textbook in the year. Trust me, we did 180+ lessons. They just didn't match the numbers in the Saxon textbook. :) I'm thrilled to be in the teaching situation I have now. I will have the same group of students again next year in 7th grade math, and will be able to pick up on the areas my weakest students need to review, and really push my strong students to excel. I do plan a "self-paced" classroom next year for 7th grade, so I may have some students finish the book early on. It makes it *very* challenging for me as a classroom teacher--imagine 15 students the same age all homeschooling at their own pacing, and correcting each one's papers (and trying to figure out WHICH lesson is which--'cause trust me, like typical middle schoolers, they don't label anything well or consistently!), and timing testing and evaluations. Now, add on the fact that I'll have 6th graders...and 8th graders with Algebra 1...and Life Science for 6th graders...and Investigative Science for the 7th graders...and directing and running the Science Fair, the Math Olympics...and planning my daughter's wedding. :) I covet your prayers! And I'm really looking forward to the rest of summer. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Last year (the year before I was hired) the school was dismayed by the fact that the previous class finished the math textbook in March (working 1 lesson per day in typical Saxon fashion) and the teacher had to finish out the year with extra material...but the parents were pretty sure no one understood math. When I got those kids in August, they may have *finished* the book, but they didn't know their math. So, I had to supplement and fill in many extra days' lessons on basic fraction, decimal and percents that I would expect a sixth grader to have mastered previously. Couple that with the fact that we skipped a book this year and bumped up our math a level...and you get 80 lessons of the textbook in the year. Trust me, we did 180+ lessons. They just didn't match the numbers in the Saxon textbook. But there are MANY degrees inbetween. You had to make up for a bad situation and got 80 lessons done. ANd possibly that was the case in the OP's school also. But generally, it sounds like, from what you said, a good teacher could finish MOST of the book in a school year (not early, but by the week) AND the kids understand the work they did all year. From what you said, that would be TWO extra months of lessons trickled in where kids were struggling. And if they missed the last chapter, that would be another couple weeks worth of work that could be practiced during the school year. But 80 lessons period seems problematic to me. That is less than a lesson every 2 days! There might be SOME classes that need that sort of thing, but not the average class with the average situation. If I were running a school and my teacher had to do like you had to do, I'd be investigating and making changes. Well, I'd investigate the first time it happened. I may not make changes that time as it could be an isolated incident. But I definitely would make changes if it became a pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Libby, Could your dd finish up with the new Saxon Teacher CDs? She seems dedicated & could be counted on to stick with it. Glad to hear you aren't going back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaLisa Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I covet your prayers! And I'm really looking forward to the rest of summer. :) See, your school must now know what a gem they found in you! How fortunate to have teachers like you and Janie pouring into your students. Blessings ~ Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolfoasia Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Ok, our previously homeschooled 10th grade dd just finished her first year in a private, non-accredited Christian school. She mentioned to me over the weekend that she was concerned that in her math class they only got to lesson 80. The school uses Saxon and she was taking Algebra II (she took Algebra I in 9th). The Alg. II textbook has 129 lessons. Did they do enough work to be ready for the next Saxon level, which I think is Advance Mathematics? I'm really concerned! That's almost 50 lessons missed!! Isn't this the level where you do not want to be skimping on math? ) I have heard that schools rarely finish the textbooks, but that seem like REALLY not finishing! I always get through every lesson of every book! I am a "closure" type. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Did they do enough work to be ready for the next Saxon level, which I think is Advance Mathematics? No one actually hit this one (from the replies I read). DS1 did Saxon Alg. 1 (every single lesson, every single problem) and recv'd an A (93% I believe). DS1 did Saxon Alg. 2 (every single lesson, every single problem) and recv'd a B (89.7% -- which he's upset over, but he tells me I'm not allowed to round). DS1 is now working on Adv. Math. . . and we had to stop, and back track, and are now taking it at 1/2 speed because he's seriously struggling. The instruction in this particular book seems to be seriously lacking, and I bought a CD, Saxon Teacher, that's supposed to help (it's worthless, as all it does is show the problems, but doesn't actually explain anything). There's a young lady next to us, that has finished her Jr. year in college -- double major: math and education. (honors classes) She has finished all her math coursework, and has only her ed. requirements to finish and she volunteered to tutor my son. And then, she gave the book back and said, nope, sorry, I haven't even covered a lot of these topics (or something to that effect). She has been very helpful in learning the graphing calculator though. (Which is great, because there's virtually no instruction on that and the user manual that comes with it is 600 pages long!) So, this is just our personal experience. And based on that, I would seriously recommend doing the entire book -- from lesson 1 through lesson 129. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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