Algebra help please

[JeanM]

I'm planning to start algebra in the fall with my older ds. He will finish singapore 6b this spring and has already finished Life of Fred Decimals and Percents. He is young (10), but currently has plans to pursue a science-type career, and I think he has the capability of doing a rigorous algebra program.

 

I've read lots of threads on these boards (including the high school board) about different algebra, and I'm really confused. He really loves Life of Fred, but I'm not totally confident about the rigor of the program. He's used the whole Singapore primary program, and I've been pleased with it. So we could just move into NEM1. Or we could do some combination of Life of Fred and NEM, depending on how hard it is to do that.

 

The other thing is that I've read about people using older Dolciani algebra texts that involve proofs. This ds is very into logic and heard from a family friend about how high school geometry involves proofs. He told me last week that he wants to get through algebra quickly so that he can get to geometry and do the proofs. So then I thought maybe we should abandon the NEM and Life of Fred, and instead use Dolciani. Or somehow try to combine Life of Fred and Dolciani. Has anyone here tried the Dolciani stuff?

 

By the way, I'm fairly good at math and am not concerned about the teacher's guide issues or anything like that.

 

Thanks in advance!

Jean

[homemomandnild]

When my 10yo finished 6B, I was afraid the layout of the NEM books would look too overwhelming to her. So we did Jacob's Algebra. She is now starting NEM 1 and doing well.

 

Kathy in WV

[JeanM]

When my 10yo finished 6B, I was afraid the layout of the NEM books would look too overwhelming to her. So we did Jacob's Algebra. She is now starting NEM 1 and doing well.

 

Hmmm. I hadn't considered Jacob's. Now another program to look at.:001_smile: Are you finding too much repetition doing NEM 1 after having done Jacob's? Did you go through all of Jacob's?

[kiana]

Gelfand is "proofy" imo. It might also supplement Fred well if your kid loves Fred.

[homemomandnild]

We did all of Jacob's. My understanding is that NEM will go further than Jacob's while also introducing the other areas of math. So far it's presented so differently that I don't think repetition will be a problem. Algebra has been enough of a jump in skill requirements that she is finally needing some review as well.

 

Kathy

[JeanM]

Gelfand is "proofy" imo. It might also supplement Fred well if your kid loves Fred.

 

Thanks for the info! I'm now leaning towards this combo (Fred and Gelfand), but I'm still wavering.

[JeanM]

We did all of Jacob's. My understanding is that NEM will go further than Jacob's while also introducing the other areas of math. So far it's presented so differently that I don't think repetition will be a problem. Algebra has been enough of a jump in skill requirements that she is finally needing some review as well.

 

Kathy

 

Hmm, so after looking at samples and stuff, it sounds like the Jacob's is "lighter" than NEM. Would you agree with that? I assume that is why you are pursuing NEM after doing Jacob's?. In theory we have lots of time, since my ds is pretty young. OTOH, ds is very goal oriented and wants to move forwards. He might get upset at doing multiple algebra programs.

 

Thanks for the input!

[Matryoshka]

When my 10yo finished 6B, I was afraid the layout of the NEM books would look too overwhelming to her.

 

 

Have you looked at Singapore's Discovering Mathematics? I'm planning on using it as a bridge year between 6b and a traditional Algebra program (I'm thinking Foerster's and Fred for my kids). DM has a much friendlier, more PM layout/ look & feel than NEM (more white space, color, kids with bubble thought-hints), but covers much of the same material. Since I'm planning on moving them to a traditional US sequence anyway, I'm not too worried if it's not exactly the same as NEM - it's definitely got lots more to chew on than 6b, so it won't feel like standing still.

[Storm Bay]

I'm going to have my 11 yo, once she's done Russian Math & the CSMP she's doing, (the Russian Math is a harder gr 6 program than the SM 6 she finished this spring, although some areas are just easy review) do LoF Algebra along with Japanese Math 7. Then, mean mother than I am, I'm going to have her redo Algebra 1 with Dolciani & Gelfand's, or, perhaps just one. I had thought for a long time that we'd do NEM, but she would be visually overwhelmed with the crowded pages. This has always been an issue for this vs dd.

 

Have you thought of doing something like MEP before Algebra? It's fabulous, and well get your ds thinking in whole new ways. Also with CSMP. Unless you really think you need to do Algebra at 10, you may wish to go deeper into math first. There is so much more to explore;)!

[Piano&ViolinMom]

He told me last week that he wants to get through algebra quickly so that he can get to geometry and do the proofs.

 

Are you talking about Algebra 1 ?

 

If so, completing it soon would be okay in order to start Geometry. But, if he is doing Algebra 2 level, he may do it along with Geometry concurrently.

[nmoira]

Gelfand is "proofy" imo. It might also supplement Fred well if your kid loves Fred.

This would be a good combo, and one I'm considering.

 

Also, don't discount Fred; the pre-algebra books are light diversions compared to the fare that follows. Be sure to get the Home Companions.

[Storm Bay]

This would be a good combo, and one I'm considering.

 

Also, don't discount Fred; the pre-algebra books are light diversions compared to the fare that follows. Be sure to get the Home Companions.

 

 

Gelfand's has very long problems, and isn't for most kids under age 13 due to this. We have it, and I had to set it aside when dd was 11 once we got to the the really long problems; I took it out again when she was 13 and it went much more smoothly. It wasn't the intellectual ability, it was the maturity.

 

If all your ds wants to do is to get to Geometry for proofs, I'd do Fred for now, and do Gelfand's later. Charon is the one I first heard about Gelfand's from, and he suggested it mainly for dc 13 & up due to that. Plus, he's taken the answer key off the internet (unless he's put it up somewhere new, but Myrtle no longer seems to keep up her blog where I find the link), so you'd need to be able to work the problems yourself to get the answers or else get help on some of the hard ones here. At least one problem was hard for him & he has a masters in math.

[JeanM]

Have you thought of doing something like MEP before Algebra? It's fabulous, and well get your ds thinking in whole new ways. Also with CSMP. Unless you really think you need to do Algebra at 10, you may wish to go deeper into math first. There is so much more to explore;)!

 

I hadn't really thought about doing MEP, but maybe I should consider that or the Russian math. I am not in any rush to get to algebra, but my ds really wants to start algebra.

 

 

 

Gelfand's has very long problems, and isn't for most kids under age 13 due to this. We have it, and I had to set it aside when dd was 11 once we got to the the really long problems; I took it out again when she was 13 and it went much more smoothly. It wasn't the intellectual ability, it was the maturity.

 

If all your ds wants to do is to get to Geometry for proofs, I'd do Fred for now, and do Gelfand's later. Charon is the one I first heard about Gelfand's from, and he suggested it mainly for dc 13 & up due to that. Plus, he's taken the answer key off the internet (unless he's put it up somewhere new, but Myrtle no longer seems to keep up her blog where I find the link), so you'd need to be able to work the problems yourself to get the answers or else get help on some of the hard ones here. At least one problem was hard for him & he has a masters in math.

 

Thanks for the Gelfand info. Maybe I'll get the book and then see when/if we want to use it. I think it was Charon that I heard about it from, but I didn't know the answer key was off the internet. I wonder if there were copyright issues? I'm guessing that if I can't figure them out dh can, since he's taken more math than I have.

 

It is wonderful that there are so many options, but it does make it very hard to decide for the parent!

[JeanM]

Are you talking about Algebra 1 ?

 

If so, completing it soon would be okay in order to start Geometry. But, if he is doing Algebra 2 level, he may do it along with Geometry concurrently.

 

He has not yet started algebra 1. I'm not encouraging him to rush through it though, since I'd like him to get a solid grounding.

[Storm Bay]

, but I didn't know the answer key was off the internet. I wonder if there were copyright issues? I'm guessing that if I can't figure them out dh can, since he's taken more math than I have.

 

It is wonderful that there are so many options, but it does make it very hard to decide for the parent!

 

 

Actually, Charon wrote the answer key, so there were no copyright issues. He may have redone it; he did that several times, and it would take Myrtle awhile to change the link (she didn't always know about it right away.) However, Myrtle was having some health issues last fall (it was in her blog) and neither she nor Charon seems to post here anymore, his blog is gone, and hers hasn't been updated in months. Needless to say, some of us have been concerned for them.

 

ETA I was wrong--Myrtle came out of hybernation (her term) to post once on her blog in March. She still has health issues, but is still alive, etc.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Karin

[babysparkler]

My ds (age 9) will be starting Jacobs Elementary Algebra either in the fall or spring. I have heard rave reviews from many people, including my FIL who was a hs math teacher before retirement a few years ago. It is worth looking into :)

[Storm Bay]

My ds (age 9) will be starting Jacobs Elementary Algebra either in the fall or spring. I have heard rave reviews from many people, including my FIL who was a hs math teacher before retirement a few years ago. It is worth looking into :)

 

 

It is worth looking at, and has a gentle beginning. My dd found it very boring after some initial excitement to be doing Algebra, but we bought it because we'd heard rave reviews here by an former poster on the old AL Boards (KPzz, for those that were here/there then). We ended up doing something else.

[Corraleno]

This would be a good combo, and one I'm considering.

 

Also, don't discount Fred; the pre-algebra books are light diversions compared to the fare that follows. Be sure to get the Home Companions.

 

:iagree:

If he's desperate to get to Geometry, he could go through Fred Alg I plus the Home Companion, then do geometry, then do Alg II. Many Alg II programs seem to review most of Alg I anyway, so I wouldn't worry about trying to get him through a super-rigorous Alg I program at 10. (Not that Fred isn't rigorous, I think it's meatier than people give it credit for because it looks like fun -- "fun" and "rigorous" must be mutually exclusive, right? :tongue_smilie: )

 

Jackie

[abbeyej]

We're in a somewhat similar position and plan to use a newer edition of Dolciani (1990, I believe). In part because it's the text that Derek Owens uses in his Algebra 1 classes, and as I may well find myself needing to rely on him for future classes for ds, I thought we'd just go along and roughly follow his syllabi from now on...

 

It may not be perfect reasoning ;) but having heard such good things about this particular text and also about Mr. Owens, I figured I couldn't be going *too* wrong.

 

I've actually really enjoyed looking at the text for the coming year -- I guess we'll see if it turns out to be overly challenging and we need to slow down though...

[JeanM]

:iagree:

If he's desperate to get to Geometry, he could go through Fred Alg I plus the Home Companion, then do geometry, then do Alg II. Many Alg II programs seem to review most of Alg I anyway, so I wouldn't worry about trying to get him through a super-rigorous Alg I program at 10. (Not that Fred isn't rigorous, I think it's meatier than people give it credit for because it looks like fun -- "fun" and "rigorous" must be mutually exclusive, right? :tongue_smilie: )

 

Jackie

 

 

Is that really true though? I'm really familiar with alg I right now (I've been tutoring it), but haven't really looked at alg II since my high school days (ancient times). I would have said that they cover different things, and doing alg II rigorously will not make up for lack of rigor in alg I. That is not to say that you can't go back and do more alg I later. Maybe I'm mistaken, since I'm not totally sure what alg II covers.

 

I'm profoundly grateful that "fun" and "rigorous" are not mutually exclusive. I'm really hoping that we can make alg I both.

 

My current plan (subject to change) is to go with Life of Fred as a "spine" and to fill in with NEM. I haven't actually seen either of these books yet, so I'll have to see how this works out.

 

If this doesn't work out well, I'm keeping Jacob's on the list as a backup plan.

 

Thanks for everyone's input. I hope this helped others as well.

[Storm Bay]

Is that really true though? I'm really familiar with alg I right now (I've been tutoring it), but haven't really looked at alg II since my high school days (ancient times). I would have said that they cover different things, and doing alg II rigorously will not make up for lack of rigor in alg I. That is not to say that you can't go back and do more alg I later.

Thanks for everyone's input. I hope this helped others as well.

 

 

What I'd do is do a different, more rigourous Algebra 1 later, as you said at the end of your first paragraph. If you choose something like a 1965-1975 Dolciani (when it was at it's best) it includes the word Trigonometry, so it looks different, ifkwim. All my dc are going to do Algebra 1 twice because they're ready early, but so far are not mature enough for the programs I consider rigourous enough for my mathy dc. If any of my dc struggled with math, I would probably also have them do Algebra 1 twice, but perhaps not with such a rigourous second one, because not everyone has a math brain, including my otherwise brilliant mother. She can certainly do arithmetic, balance the books, etc, but Algebra, etc, was not as easy for her or my kid brother as it was for some of the rest of us.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Karin
Dolciani wasn't born yet in 1075 ;) edited again because 9075 hasn't happened yet

[Melinda]

We plan on using Art of Problem Solving classes online and Video Text when we finish Singapore 6B. Good luck with finding what works!

[JeanM]

What I'd do is do a different, more rigourous Algebra 1 later, as you said at the end of your first paragraph. If you choose something like a 1965-9075 Dolciani (when it was at it's best) it includes the word Trigonometry, so it looks different, ifkwim. All my dc are going to do Algebra 1 twice because they're ready early, but so far are not mature enough for the programs I consider rigourous enough for my mathy dc. If any of my dc struggled with math, I would probably also have them do Algebra 1 twice, but perhaps not with such a rigourous second one, because not everyone has a math brain, including my otherwise brilliant mother. She can certainly do arithmetic, balance the books, etc, but Algebra, etc, was not as easy for her or my kid brother as it was for some of the rest of us.

 

 

I like this idea a lot. Maybe what I can do is do Alg I next year as planned: Life of Fred and NEM. Then maybe do geometry the following year, and after that return to alg I before moving to alg II. That way the 2nd time we can do really tough stuff like Gelfand and Dolciani.

 

It is tough because this kid is really eager to move on and learn new stuff. When I discussed with him the possibility of doing another year of pre-algebra, he was very upset. He is still young though and, in my opinion, has lots of time to do advanced math.

[JeanM]

We plan on using Art of Problem Solving classes online and Video Text when we finish Singapore 6B. Good luck with finding what works!

 

I think the Art of Problem Solving Classes look very cool, but they are just out of our budget. Maybe if our finances turn around in another year or two.:001_smile:

[Spetzi]

By the way, I'm fairly good at math and am not concerned about the teacher's guide issues or anything like that.

 

 

 

Yea, that's what I thought until I had to "go back" to 8th grade Algebra this year! lol I do remember, it just takes a minute...

 

Any way, we decided to use Life of Fred. When he's finished, he'll take an Algebra 1 final or two (I got them off the internet) to see if there is full mastery of the concepts.

 

He is more than half-way done after just a few weeks with this book. He *seems* to be truly understanding the way Fred presents the material so I didnt' want to cloud it w/another program (unless it turns out that we need to.)

 

I've found that LofF goes quickly and that might be beneficial if one wants to get to proofs in geometry. LofF recommends Advanced Algebra after Begining Algebra, then continuing on to Geometry.

 

You might want to try Life of Fred alone to see if it works. It's fun and economical.

[JeanM]

Yea, that's what I thought until I had to "go back" to 8th grade Algebra this year! lol I do remember, it just takes a minute...

 

Any way, we decided to use Life of Fred. When he's finished, he'll take an Algebra 1 final or two (I got them off the internet) to see if there is full mastery of the concepts.

 

He is more than half-way done after just a few weeks with this book. He *seems* to be truly understanding the way Fred presents the material so I didnt' want to cloud it w/another program (unless it turns out that we need to.)

 

I've found that LofF goes quickly and that might be beneficial if one wants to get to proofs in geometry. LofF recommends Advanced Algebra after Begining Algebra, then continuing on to Geometry.

 

You might want to try Life of Fred alone to see if it works. It's fun and economical.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. We have been very impressed with the Life of Fred books so far.

[Brindee]

Yea, that's what I thought until I had to "go back" to 8th grade Algebra this year! lol I do remember, it just takes a minute...

I never was very good with math, so my dh has had to take over in the math area! :tongue_smilie:

 

Any way, we decided to use Life of Fred. When he's finished, he'll take an Algebra 1 final or two (I got them off the internet) to see if there is full mastery of the concepts.

 

He is more than half-way done after just a few weeks with this book. He *seems* to be truly understanding the way Fred presents the material so I didnt' want to cloud it w/another program (unless it turns out that we need to.)

 

I've found that LofF goes quickly and that might be beneficial if one wants to get to proofs in geometry. LofF recommends Advanced Algebra after Begining Algebra, then continuing on to Geometry.

 

You might want to try Life of Fred alone to see if it works. It's fun and economical.

That's what we do with our younger ds. He's not advanced--he did TT Algebra in 8th grade, then started the LoF Beg. Algebra. This year in 9th he finished the Beg, Algebra and is now finishing up the LoF Advanced Algebra. No supplementation, just LoF. He's done soooo much better, and loves the humor in LoF! Next year, 10th, he'll do the LoF Geometry with no supplementing. He's struggled with Geometry in the past, so this may take him all year to finish. We'll see if being older now helps him understand Geometry better. I hope so!

[JeanM]

Yea, that's what I thought until I had to "go back" to 8th grade Algebra this year! lol I do remember, it just takes a minute...

 

 

Well, I will confess that it took me more than a minute for it to come back. I've been tutoring math up through algebra online lately, so I'm fairly confident about the algebra 1 stuff. I spent a good bit of time brushing up before starting tutoring.

 

I've found that LofF goes quickly and that might be beneficial if one wants to get to proofs in geometry. LofF recommends Advanced Algebra after Begining Algebra, then continuing on to Geometry.

 

You might want to try Life of Fred alone to see if it works. It's fun and economical.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm still leaning towards ordering both Life of Fred and NEM, just to be thorough about it. Also, ds says he thinks we should get both, so I'm not going to say no if he is willing to do extra math.

[jlovebaker]

My 6th grader is using this program after finishing a traditional ps pre-algebra text which was ok. I love the "math language" and short videos - it is also just algebra and not stats or geometry. It's pre-alg, alg 1 and alg 2. He pretty much just self paces and is currently finishing the 2 DVD (A-F). Can be a one or two year course depending on your kid. I know a 10 yo who finished the whole thing already.

I love proofs too ... but algebra is logic so it should satisfy your kids somewhat.

[Capt_Uhura]

I apologize if you've mentioned this already but a quick scan didn't answer my question. You mentioned above that for DC ready early you'd do a less rigorous AlgI course and then later do a more rigorous Alg I course. Which less rigorous courses do you recommend?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

[Storm Bay]

I apologize if you've mentioned this already but a quick scan didn't answer my question. You mentioned above that for DC ready early you'd do a less rigorous AlgI course and then later do a more rigorous Alg I course. Which less rigorous courses do you recommend?

 

Thanks,

Capt_Uhura

 

 

With my first, we did trial and error. With my second, I'm planning to try something fun, Life of Fred. I can't technically recommend it since we haven't actually tried it yet. Life of Fred may well be a good complete program, but I'm guessing that it doesn't have all of the same things that Gelfand's Algebra, which is quite rigourous once you get into it, or an older Dolciani does. I say this, even though we have several other Algebra 1's on the shelf, and they're not necessarily bad. My second one will just love the humourous story concept of Life of Fred, and since she's currently doing a Russian Math from Perpendicular Press, it will be a fun change for her.

[babysparkler]

 

Have you thought of doing something like MEP before Algebra? It's fabulous, and well get your ds thinking in whole new ways. Also with CSMP. Unless you really think you need to do Algebra at 10, you may wish to go deeper into math first. There is so much more to explore;)!

 

I'm new to math abbreviations... what is MEP? My ds9 breezed through Saxon 76 and is begging not to continue with Saxon. We plan to use Jacobs eventually. He has a pretty solid understanding of elementary math, but I was wondering if I should bridge him to Jacobs Algebra with something else first or if I should just go ahead and start Jacobs? What would you all recommend?

[JeanM]

I'm new to math abbreviations... what is MEP? My ds9 breezed through Saxon 76 and is begging not to continue with Saxon. We plan to use Jacobs eventually. He has a pretty solid understanding of elementary math, but I was wondering if I should bridge him to Jacobs Algebra with something else first or if I should just go ahead and start Jacobs? What would you all recommend?

 

I can't really help you, since I haven't used Saxon or Jacobs. I can help you with MEP - here's a link:

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm

 

I haven't used MEP, but have heard it mentioned on these boards before.

[Storm Bay]

I can't really help you, since I haven't used Saxon or Jacobs. I can help you with MEP - here's a link:

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm

 

I haven't used MEP, but have heard it mentioned on these boards before.

 

That's the link. The full name is Mathematics Enhancement Project, I believe.

[Capt_Uhura]

Karin - thank you! I have LOF Fractions and plan on using it this summer. I too look at it and it seems like a wonderful enrichment but many say it's a complete program.

 

My issue is that after using RightStart, I want a program which focuses on conceptual understanding rather than giving an algorithm to follow. I also like seeing real-world application to give it relevance.

 

Capt_Uhura

Edited June 8, 2009 by Capt_Uhura
changed won't to want

[mcconnellboys]

He might like the Real World Algebra book by Zaccaro. It feels a lot like Singapore for the word problems. I'm going through it now with my 11 year old son.

[Peggy in Va]

Gelfand's has very long problems, and isn't for most kids under age 13 due to this. We have it, and I had to set it aside when dd was 11 once we got to the the really long problems; I took it out again when she was 13 and it went much more smoothly. It wasn't the intellectual ability, it was the maturity.

 

If all your ds wants to do is to get to Geometry for proofs, I'd do Fred for now, and do Gelfand's later. Charon is the one I first heard about Gelfand's from, and he suggested it mainly for dc 13 & up due to that. Plus, he's taken the answer key off the internet (unless he's put it up somewhere new, but Myrtle no longer seems to keep up her blog where I find the link), so you'd need to be able to work the problems yourself to get the answers or else get help on some of the hard ones here. At least one problem was hard for him & he has a masters in math.

 

In case anyone is interested, I happen to have a pdf copy of Charon's solutions:

Solutions to the Unsolved Problems in Gelfand’s Algebra Adrian S. Durham 2007

 

I saved it for future reference when he had it posted. I tried to attach it to this post, but the file is too large, 97 pages. If anyone is interested in it, I would be more than happy to send it to you via e-mail. I assume this would be o.k.; however, if anyone knows differently please let me know.

 

He and Myrtle were/are definitely a gold mind when it came to this sort of thing.

 

Just let me know.

[Storm Bay]

In case anyone is interested, I happen to have a pdf copy of Charon's solutions:

Solutions to the Unsolved Problems in Gelfand’s Algebra Adrian S. Durham 2007

 

I saved it for future reference when he had it posted. I tried to attach it to this post, but the file is too large, 97 pages. If anyone is interested in it, I would be more than happy to send it to you via e-mail. I assume this would be o.k.; however, if anyone knows differently please let me know.

 

He and Myrtle were/are definitely a gold mind when it came to this sort of thing.

 

Just let me know.

 

I have it, too, and can send it. I know that for a while I wasn't sure if I could send out the answers, but one day I checked it and it's okay since he put it in the public domain. I'm happy I had saved it before the page was gone, and that others did, too.

[Guest Dragoon]

In case anyone is interested, I happen to have a pdf copy of Charon's solutions:

Solutions to the Unsolved Problems in Gelfand’s Algebra Adrian S. Durham 2007

 

I saved it for future reference when he had it posted. I tried to attach it to this post, but the file is too large, 97 pages. If anyone is interested in it, I would be more than happy to send it to you via e-mail. I assume this would be o.k.; however, if anyone knows differently please let me know.

 

He and Myrtle were/are definitely a gold mind when it came to this sort of thing.

 

Just let me know.

 

 

If any of you happen to have a copy of Gelfand's Algebra solutions and possibly those for the Trig section, it would be incredibly helpful. There is a section my brain just doesn't want to understand and I really need to get this stuff down. ^_^'

 

Please email me at Christopher91786@hotmail.com if you happen to have a pdf of it. In addition to Gelfand's Trig if you happen to have that too. ^_^'

 

-Chris

 

PS. I've been looking all over the internet for the solutions...

Edited June 10, 2009 by Dragoon

[Guest Dragoon]

I have it, too, and can send it. I know that for a while I wasn't sure if I could send out the answers, but one day I checked it and it's okay since he put it in the public domain. I'm happy I had saved it before the page was gone, and that others did, too.

 

If any of you happen to have a copy of Gelfand's Algebra solutions and possibly those for the Trig section, it would be incredibly helpful. There is a section my brain just doesn't want to understand and I really need to get this stuff down. ^_^'

 

Please email me at Christopher91786@hotmail.com if you happen to have a pdf of it. In addition to Gelfand's Trig if you happen to have that too. ^_^'

 

-Chris