That church defined modesty as women in dresses or skirts, pants were not allowed. I don't hold a grudge any more (handed that over to One better equipped to handle it), but it does pop into my head whenever I read fashion police type things. I wonder if anyone considers the folks that turn away because of it, and if they do, do they think their 'rules' are worth more than the salvation of another.

:grouphug: Slog it out for tomorrow, see if you can work it out this weekend and if not maybe just an extra day or two would work? I've given ds days off, while also showing how he'd have to double up work to catch up. It must be the weather. I just haven't wanted to 'do' school this week, luckily both the boys are gung ho (or else haven't noticed that I'd be happy to throw in the towel).

:confused:

Of course we do. I do worry about a cultural leaning towards justification for males leering, oogling, and gandering (lol, sorry Sweeny Todd reference). Sure, we should do our best to make it easier for others to behave as they should (that responsibility also helps keep us safe), but I do not believe that saying anything like, 'she deserves it' thereby implying 'let em look!' is right, at all. Not to say you said that, I've just been thinking about this and the cleavage thread and it worries me for my ds. I mean, them leering/ogling/etc is wrong, period. I don't care if the woman is wearing dental floss and a neon sign blinking 'look,' I don't want my sons to trip over that block.

Thank you, I don't feel like a total crackpot now :)

I'm a little surprised you think TWTM is too much. It was/is the first/only hsing book I've read and I lend it out all the time to people who are interested.

I'm so glad it's worked out for you. :grouphug: I was going to recommend putting it all on his plate and saying what do you want me to do? Sometimes, making it their idea helps :)

See, and for us, dh and I, we just want to be together. I never said it was that way for everyone. You're not the first to imply there is something wrong with us for wanting to be together. Whatever, that's why we married each other, because we couldn't bear to be apart. I went to a three day cub scout camp and we texted and called for nearly the entire night. Again, not "normal" for some people, but then I couldn't imagine being okay with leaving dh for 12 days. From his pov (your sister's bf), if the doctors think it's okay then who is he to argue? If you want to rationalize something it's so much easier when you have an authority (like a doctor) telling you it's okay. Perhaps the doctors want to see if she's prepared for being on her own, perhaps they want to break her in gently (since this is a weekend pass). Having the doctors say something that he (bf) desparately wants to hear (you can go home!) is going to make all his concerns for her welfare fly out the window. After all, he's not being selfish, he's following doctor's orders, iykwIm.

That's pretty well what I thought. Where heavier garments up north make sense, as well as more coverage, that just does not work everywhere. I have been to one church where clothing was an issue. I was absolutely STUNNED to be turned away, because I was wearing jeans. I mean, I just can't see God saying, you wore jeans?!? To hell with you! I always imagined God saying something more like, don't worry about what you wear, I'll take care of it... oh, wait, He DID say that, didn't he :) As for whether or not non-Christians need to dress modestly... why should they? and why does it matter? I mean, wouldn't salvation of their soul trump hiding their cleavage? And, if CHRISTIAN men are leering, then WHY are we worried about the worldly girl they're leering at?!? Shouldn't we be more concerned with bringing our "brother" back to the straight and narrow? Jesus didn't say the world would be molded to make our walk easy. As a matter of fact, lamb among wolves comes to mind.

Have you talked to him about the whole situation? Just curious, because it could be he is more intimate with your sister than you are and he may be the person that needs to bring these problems (the cutting et al) to the fore front to be addressed. IOW, he sounds like he adores her, so wouldn't he try to protect her from herself?

Not in a sexual way. The man needs to worry about his own self, and avoid contaminating his spirit with lust etc. We are all free to look at eachother in public. A woman could wear a circus tent and men are still free to look at her, for that matter, so are women and children. Should she be surprised to become an object of lust, catcalls, or creepy offers? No. If you are displaying yourself, then you should expect to get window shopped, iykwIm. That does not make it okay for men to leer/jeer (or women), but it does make it harder for others to feel the need to "rescue" the displayed girl from unwanted advances. After all, you have to wonder how unwanted they are.

He sounds in love (awwwwwwww). I would not say needy. Dh stayed with me at the hospital the few times I had to stay. He would bring an alarm clock and spend the night with me (warm fuzzies :) ). I've never seen it as anything other than, we love each other and want to be together. I know there's couples that do much better with time apart, but there are those of us that are glad to be joined at the hip. The way dh puts it is, 'if I didn't like being with her (me), then I would not have married her.' I hope your sister stops cutting and if I were you, the only thing I would consider mentioning would be something along the lines of... can't you use your influence to make her stop cutting... and that would be to the bf.

I bought TWTM after running a few searches online and finding Peace Hill Press. I read the opening, by Jessie Wise and what she said about her son struck a deep chord with both myself and my husband. It was my first choice, because I could afford the book :) It's stayed my choice, because A. SWB turned out well, B. J Wise's opening could've been written about dh, ds or me, and C. I am one of those people that finds something they like and just stick with it. I'm just not much for change :p I'm not surprised that others (even hsers) haven't heard of it, but I joyfully hand over my written in/dog eared copy. I can't say enough good stuff about what this book has done for my dcs, my dh and myself. I do wonder... how many people get the blank stare and just return it. Iow, when someone says 'The well trained what?' Do people explain (and even tout it, like I do)? Just curious.

I'm still learning and I wondered what it was God had against braids... Lol, it seems silly now, but my thought was, 'why would it be mentioned specifically unless it was important?' So, braiding (scripterally) is used as an example of excessive concern with appearance, not that braiding is wrong, but it could be if you paid undue attention to it? I do think that too much focus on modesty could be immodest. If you're too focused on your appearance (be it flashy or wall flower) then you aren't focusing where you SHOULD be focusing (ie God). Sometimes it seems like you come in and straighten out the dissaray in my head, thank you Carmen :)

Well... all the hs peeps I know around here know about it... oh wait... I lent them my copy ;)

Holy guacamole! :blink: I think I would have piddled myself! :leaving:

Use your library for math. There are so many awesome resources out there. Keep running with him, until he reaches a point where you need to slow down. Just remember to slow down when he needs too :p I sometimes forget that. As for grammar, I would go with FLL. She does not assume that children are writing well and I think most people that use it LOVE it. Way to go! Keep up the good work, and be prepared to be amazed :) If you let them run, it's incredible to see how far they can go.

Hardly, I love reading your posts :) Although, I do wonder how many people have me on ignore....:auto: :lol:

I went ahead and put the two things I was responding to above. Now, if you want generally agreed upon terms, you'll have to stick with a particular group or church. Are you hoping that an entire country can come to generally agreed upon terms without enforcement??? Because, that's never going to happen. What is modest in Maine is not modest (rather uncomfortably dressed) in Hawaii. Why? Because the climate is very different, the society is very different, the culture is very different. I think the problem with generally agreed upon terms is that they assume that everyone everywhere will agree, and is in a position to agree. Someone in Phoenix might find the modest dress of someone from New England to be laughable, due to the mid day temps. That's why modesty is a personal decision or the decision of one specific community (see a particular church). Because the world is full of variety and what is lewd, crude and socially unacceptable here is normal day to day behavior elsewhere. I, personally, would be more interested in courtesy and etiquette becoming nationalized than a dress code. Why? Because I'm more offended by the high pace, cold attitude I see elsewhere than I am what they're wearing. However, I know that's not something everyone would agree on, so I know I'll never take a trip to New York and get to see them all chatting with each other and behaving like we do here. Do you think that still applies, braiding hair? I'm curious because I have long unruly hair and it is so much tidier if I braid it... but I haven't done that on Sundays for fear I'd be breaking God's dress code (the church doesn't care, they're just glad I'm there).

Mrs. F, I think the idea is that a man that is satisfied at home is not going to stray. Of course, personally, I disagree with the implication that men MUST be gratified sexually or that sex is ALL that will satisfy men. They're just as likely to cheat for emotional reasons as women. Imo, the intimacy should not be narrowed down to just physical. Men want understanding and companionship as much as women. Imo, a man is more likely to stray from a lack of emotional intimacy than physical. As for being turned on by cracks and things... imo, once you've crossed into lust, you've crossed into adultery. People have to guard themselves against that, and not through laws or stoning. Self control, faith and trust in God are all you can count on there, most definitely nothing in the world is going to protect you from immodest sights. It's not that modesty equals sexual repression, it's that ENFORCED modesty equals sexual repression. The laws in Iran concerning clothing for women, imo, equals repression. They're modesty laws, and it's not the modesty that makes it repression, it is the ENFORCEMENT.

First, ds has to write the definition of "contradict." Then, he has to look up whatever it is he disagreed with me on in our encyclopedias. Whomever is wrong (him) must concede, apologize and then keep it mum. :)

We're still using it, but I'm thinking of switching to composition notebooks (the kinds that are black and white on the cover and the pages are sewn in). I'm going to move science, spelling, reading, Latin, and math into those. Grammar and writing are already done in one, but for history we'll stick with the binder. Greek is done in a workbook, so there's no need for a folder :) My reasoning is that the cns are slimmer, none of the pages wear or fall out, and they're kept in order. I've gotten tired of having to fix pages with the hole mender sticker things and it gets so messy after awhile... hth

We try to keep the kids in motion at all times. That way the clutter doesn't collapse on top of them. Lol, really though... our house IS cluttered all around the edges. We keep the working areas tidy and neat and try to hide the clutter in cabinets and closets, but it's there lurking and biding its time until it can finally break down the doors and pour all over some unsuspecting guest. Our house is a few hundred square feet smaller than yours, though. So it's a bit tighter here ;)

Some of us always find the fashion police funny :p