Pam, thanks for mentioning this book. I just told dd about it and she wants to read it (something about it being the only way I'd allow her to read a book that cusses :)). Anyway, thanks so much! I've put a hold at the library.

Hey, I thought of you tonight... watched Home Improvement and it featured a family in ABQ! You know, I just can't see that chandelier in any room that I don't eat in :). Not that I don't eat in bed. And I'm talking food here. :)

I have a cute story for you... the woman that Julia Roberts portrayed was interviewed locally (they are Houston socialites) and she was so charming... she said (in her sweet, southern drawl) that Julia Roberts didn't do such a good job portraying her because she would NEVER tell one of her guests to get their own drink :). Robin

Well, there's a lot of minutea (sp?) to wade through in those books, but I sure wish I had a set. If you decide to get rid of them, let me know :).

I did about 30 years ago :). I don't mean to discourage you... your experience may be very different... but I found it difficult (in the sense that it took a lot of time, not that it was very hard), and if memory serves, I didn't like how much waste was involved... it seemed like too much stuff went down the drain. Good luck at your attempt, though. I could have been doing something wrong. I only tried it a few times then decided it wasn't worth it. That was back in the days we ate TVP (affectionately known in my home as kibbles and bits :)). I decided the store bought stuff was worth the cost. Kinda like the time I tried to make my own tofu. GAH!! Robin

Logic stage dd here... I'm actually right there with you. We're not technically at the rhetoric stage yet but I imagine you will actually be right about that, too! LOL

Oh, thanks for the encouragement! YEs, the look in the kitchen area is definitely tuscan and it is a very roomy kitchen and breakfast room - so propportion will be fine - the current fixture in the breakfast room now is not much smaller than my chandelier in height and width, it's just simpler and it's a dark iron color. I have a picture of my chandelier saved as a jpeg file, and I would post it here if I knew how to upload the picture to the body of my post. Anyone know I can do this? Regena, my old chandelier is not quite as large as the one currently in the dining room... the one in there is broader and has a LOT of crystal - the huge fixture in the foyer is all crystal, too... that's why I want to leave them together. I can dress down the brass before I can dress down the crystal. And yeah... I feel pretty good about the fact that I'm at least not trying this in the bathroom! LOL Thanks, y'all!! Robin

I saw an interview with her a while back and she is also a pretty good ballroom dancer. She's very impressive, all the way around!

New house has a chandelier in the dining room that matches the fixture in the entry way. For now, I'll leave it that way. Problem is, now I don't know what to do with my beautiful brass chandelier that dh and I bought with our first dining room set over 25 years ago... it's a traditional brass chandelier with two tiers of light, very heavy, very good quality. I love this chandelier and intend to use it somehow... it just doesn't go with the other fixtures in the formal area and I can't justify the expense of replacing them when there are other priorities around here (like window coverings! LOL) Because the chandelier is so traditional, I'm wondering if I couldn't somehow dress it down with lamp shades and use it in the breakfast room. Maybe golden or red lamp shades (I have cherry cabinets stained a rich golden color, black appliances, light terra-cotta colored tile, and solid surface countertops that are almost a sage green - sounds weird but the golden/sage/terracotta blends nicely and a rustic red would be a good accent color, I think). So, have you ever seen anyone hang a dining room chandelier in their breakfast room? Am I nuts? Help! I'm decorating challenged! LOL

This is a fantastic suggestion! Something I would have never thought of. Thank you! Robin (having a little trouble getting off the ground with TWEM, too)

Yes... and I'm certainly not advocating marriage at 15, either!! LOL I just think that when a girl is around 16 or 17, she is a LOT closer to being fully adult in my eyes than she is in the eyes of our culture. I realize there is no magic age, and probably mid twenties is a good age for the END of the spectrum (EVERYONE should be fully grown up by then... it's not like 25 should be the average age, with some grown up by 20 and others by 30).

For the record, that's not what I was doing... someone asked in this thread what we thought (in general) about it being legal to marry younger than 18 and produce a baby, but it's not legal to have sex outside of marriage when younger than 18. That is the part of the discussion I was referring to when I said it reminded me of my friend. In one court, the boyfriend was considered her husband and in another he would have been charged for statutory rape. I think I said this elsewhere, but I think I need to say it again... that little rabbit trail really had nothing directly to do with the FLDS situation. In hindsight, I think perhaps that particular bunny trail should have had its own thread. Otherwise, I agree about it being a plate of spaghetti.

Here's the link... scroll down to read... you have to buy a set with DVD/VHS to qualify for the $50 technical support. http://www.chalkdust.com/readme.html HTH

Holly, check and see... I think they provide customer service for users of the program who purchased on the secondary market - there's a fee involved. I can't remember how much... maybe about $50?

I'll be needing to stretch my legs by then :) Lucky you! Please post your pictures and tell us all about it when you get back!!

Okay, I didn't know that. If that is so, then I definitely stand corrected. No, not the same thing at all. I probably shouldn't make any more comments at the FLDS case because I'm really not up to speed on it, I've only heard snips here and there (and watched tons of footage of terrified children being bused like cattle to group homes in my area). It's just an awful situation all around, and I only hope the children's peace and joy can somehow be preserved and fostered in all of this... Editing to add an afterthought... you know, that sort of thing should be illegal no matter the age. The fact that she was so young makes it seem worse, but really... forced marriage/rape would be pretty traumatic at 18 or 20 or any age. That should be prosecuted regardless of the age of the victim. I'm not so sure we should make this an "age of consent" issue... if this happens, it should be a rape/imprisonment thing, and a 18 year old victim should have just as much recourse as a 15 year old victim, kwim?

I don't know, Peek... I really do think that our society overvalues extended adolescence. I would argue that our ability for decision making continues to mature throughout our entire lifetime. There's nothing wrong with younger couples doing some of that growing up together, or with teaching young couples that love and respect continue to grow in a marriage - you can't just wait until it's all there in perfect form - perfect maturity. And there's no guarantee that a later in life marriage will be less dysfunctional. That has more to do with how each partner was raised and what THEIR family dynamics are like - how they are taught to act in a marriage. One of the most functional families I know, that I really look up and wish I had the privilege of experiencing, is a very tight knit, loving family that values adulthood, marriage and children. It is a large family where all the kids married (or at least were engaged) young... before finishing college... and they are all healthy, mature, adults with kids of their own who are all very mature, responsible kids. None of them are chasing after their lost youth, or struggling with not being grown up enough for the life they are living - they grew up *because* of the life they are living, and wouldn't have it any other way. They'd rather be a happily married adult in their early 20s than some idiot (their words not mine) like you see on shows like "Friends" who is perpetually trying to figure out who they are and what they want. The cultural difference between this family and the norm in America is startling. BTW, the parents of this family are Italian immigrants. They just don't buy into all the "20-year-olds aren't grown up" junk. Late teens and early 20 year olds are sure grown up in that family.. probably because they are expected to be grown up, and because they are treated like they are grown up. Not that they are finishing growing and becoming wiser, but they are READY for adulthood because they have been prepared for it. They would be totally embarrassed to be caught acting or treated like anything else. And I tell you what else... by the time they hit their 30s and 40s, they are a LOT more sure of themselves and wiser and happier and financially secure than the vast majority of their peers who are just then starting to think about getting serious about life. There is a certain about of maturity that a person can not attain until they have taken on the responsibility of a family. Delaying the start of that until the 30s only delays the onset of that level of maturity. Sure there are some idiots out there marrying young for the wrong reason... but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how culturally we do not "expect" our kids to outgrow their adolescence at an appropriate ate. Teenager is a new term... they used to be called young adults. I think we give kids up to the age of 25 carte blanche way too often to NOT grow up because there no external pressures or expectations placed on them. They act the part we expect of them quite well. Rant over... sorry about all that! LOL

Something just dawned on me... one of the highly publicized prosecutions of the leader of this cult was for his involvement in a marriage between a 14yo girl and a 19yo boy. So yes, some of these *are* teenagers marrying young... that's only about one year's difference in age from my friend... she got pregnant only a few months after her 15th birthday. I am certain it wasn't their "first time" :). And the boy was out of high school, so 18/19 is right around the same age for him, too. But still, if girls are being traded off like chattel to old men, that's very wrong. I hope that goes without saying.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying... I was just speaking in generalities in response to the person who wanted to know what we thought about it being legal to marry and get pregnant as a 16yo, but not legal to have sex as a 16yo. I was speaking in generalities about that issue, not about the FLDS issue. I really don't know if girls there are being forced to marry and have sex against their will with 50 and 60 yo men. I know that's the allegation, but I've also heard that the original phone call was a hoax, etc., and that they really aren't finding all these teen girls who are pregnant or already mothers. I'm withholding judgement until we know for sure... There is another group in Texas that is amish-like (some people call them in cult, I'm not so sure about that)... there is no polygamy, but there is a lot of early marriage and starting families young. They are an agrarian group who don't usually go to college, instead they "homestead"... I think they are free to leave when they grow up, but I'm pretty sure a lot of pressure is put on them to pursue their parent's values. I really worry that groups like them will get drug through the mud because of this situation. You know, it's okay to be different and "Little House on the Praire" like if you wish, and marry young, and live like the Amish if you want to. And children usually ARE raised to embrace their parent's values... we are free to raise our children to that end, thankfully... I am leery of govt deciding what is okay to teach our kids and what isn't... I just want to be careful that this doesn't open the door for the government to increase their power to regulate our personal lives. Again, if the men committed crimes, arrest and charge them. The drama of the last few days is nothing more than muscle flexing as far as I'm concerned, and has been terribly demeaning to the dignity of the children (and many of the mothers, I'm sure). Let's just heap abuse upon abuse why don't we?... yeah, whatever gets the public worked up into a frenzy so they'll support our stretching our arms out a little longer... (can you tell I'm very frustrated with the way the authorities and the media have handled this?)

You may be right... I really don't know enough about the situation. I just think they should be very, very careful about this. And I also agree with those who say that if it were the men who were commiting crimes, then they should have been picked up and interrogated and charges filed. I'm not so sure traumatizing all those little children was the high road, kwim? There's probably a lot we don't know... on both sides of this story.

Thanks for all the comments. I will look more closely at the program and the components you all recommend. I appreciate all the responses!

This discussion reminds me of my best friend, who got pregnant at 15. Her boyfriend was 18. She was too young to get married in Texas so her parents drove them across the border where they could legally marry (either Louisiana or Arkansas). The boy wasn't treated as a rapist, although I guess legally he could have been. Her parents married at 15 and this didn't seem outrageous to them (country folk often marry very young). You know, it's such a cultural thing. Children need to be protected from molestation and incenst and agressors, no doubt, but it is a gray area as far as I'm concerned... obviously God has readied their bodies for sexual attraction and reproduction, but we as a society are saying no, you are too young, you have to reach an emotional/mental maturity before you can act on your natural instincts. I don't want to turn this into a debate over early vs. later marriage, I'm just saying that there are clearly some advantages to young marriage and I sometimes wonder about the wisdom of our culture placing such value on "youth" to the point that we extend our youthful ways (behavior, expectations, etc.) well into adult years, and delay the "onset" of adulthood by as much as a decade or so. It's an interesting thing to think about. Of course, this has nothing to do with any criminal allegations against FLDS including incest or molestation. But if a 16 year old girl in that group is willingly married to a young man and has become pregnant, I am hesitant to call that criminal. Only if it is forced or if it is incest.

Hey, you are welcome to gently inform me of posting etiquette any time! Lord knows I could use a few lessons in that department :)

Okay, can someone define Latin 1 for me? I would think that Henle *is* at least Latin 1, right? Or is Latin 1 what you do after Henle? We just did the first year of Latin in the Christian Trivium. Is that Latin 1? I think my dd is ready to move onto volume 2, but I really don't understand where we will be on the continuum... Latin 1 yet? Latin 1 still? Latin 2?

Okay, I just checked... you have no quick reply in *threaded* mode. I was getting that confused with linear. Sorry!