If given the opportunity to do what he wants, how would he spend his time? I just eliminated all tv, video games, and internet games from our home and my first grader and second grader play chess with each other during their free time, they did a bunch of kiddie sudoku, and spend more time outdoors. My older one, about the age of your child, is finding more books to read. Have you tried project kits such as Snap Circuits, robot kits, etc? He just doesn't like any of it? What have you tried? How does he choose to spend his free time?

Insert a line height command such <span style="LINE-HEIGHT: 1.4"> at the beginning to unscrunch the lines. Don't forget to close it at the end with a back slash thing. To prevent problems with deleted photos get an account through a photo hosting website and upload your pics there and then use the URL option in blogger to enter the URL of that particular pic. I've never been able to have the picture pop up where it's supposed to be, I cut and paste the code to where I want it to show up.

Well, here's an experiment. Stick me in your ignore list and PM me to let me know that you did it. I'll try to PM you back a few times. Then take me out of the ignore list and I'll let you know "Yes, I tried it and it wouldn't go through" and we'll know that it worked. My guess is that putting someone on "ignore" really does result in them not getting to you in any way!:001_smile:

The algebra program we explicitly taught logic before it began algebra. It then used the logic to explain the algebra, but the kind of logic that was taught was mathematical logic. Cothran teaches informal logic and specifically eschews mathematical logic or symbolic logic, Venn diagrams, logic tables, etc, which is exactly the kind of formal logic that rigorous math programs depend on when they teach the subject or use symbolic logic to express and teach math (quantification, "for every epsilon there is a delta..." all done up in symbols) And as a digression, since Cothran brought up Bertrand Russell, I think, and this is speculation, that he might really be reacting against logical positivism that used symbolic logic, because of the role that logical positivism played in various assaults on theology. Here is how logic is applied when we teach algebra. For example, when we explained why it was that the square root of 9 was not -3 we did it using the language of logic, via a discussion of bidirectional implications and discussion about assuming the converse etc. (the book does this, so we do this as well) But you could just state the whole lesson on the square root function as a rule to be memorized without the in depth discussion in logic. It is in this way that studying logic helped him, it helped him to understand the rule and why it worked that way. It wasn't so much that learning logic made him more logical, but that it gave him a set of concepts and terms by which we could explain to him errors in thinking, otherwise we are stuck with, "That's wrong and I don't know how to explain to you why it's wrong, just keep practicing and you'll get it." That being said, we started logic late last spring and worked on specifically those concepts that we knew we'd be touching on in algebra rather, which is more like studying "applied logic" rather than studying logic as a subject for its own sake. So this year, we specifically looked for a curriculum that teaches logic with the intent on applying it to math and we'll start that in the fall. You are right that starting up two heavy duty subjects like concurrently this can be overwhelming. The other sweet thing about beginning the study of logic slightly before the study of algebra was that my son was already familiar with how to work with defintions, axioms, and derivations and only had to apply that to a new field. I think having issues with this is probably a common problem, and in my unsolicitied opinion, one that has more to do with familiarity with these kinds of systems rather than problems with abstraction, so that being familiar with logic and its formal rules made it easier to deal with algebra, but in retrospect had we done both at the same time it wouldn't have removed the hurdle; I think it might just give him the same hurdle in two different subjects, whereas if you did it one at a time, the second go around with the second subject is a bit easier. Next year we'll pick up on logic again only this go around it will be an entire course of mathematical logic. Rather than teaching only the basic concepts, vocabulary, and symbols, the course will teach him how to account for assumptions being made. This translates into becoming more aware of assumptions that are being made while solving a complex problem or proving a theorem. Historically, algebra was not taught with mathematical rigor (logic) but rather heuristically, I'm thinking 19th century algebra, and in fact you can see gaffes in the instruction and even errors in solutions in these books. Logic was taught prior to geometry, though, since it was geometry was taught rigorously, and so you see older geometry texts giving lessons in logic before the geometry is taught.

Kelli, actually I have tried to private message you over a post that I saw on the general board, but I can't for the life of me remember what the topic was now. In general I have PMd people over curriculum or other information that they might find useful, or personal details that are of a nature, say about discipline that I'd prefer not to be public. Sometimes I feel that I'd be hijacking a thread by responding publically and I prefer to PM. I can see where PMs might be particularly helpful if there is a conflict or miscommunication happening on the board and it's just easier to get one one one with someone and ask them about it rather than doing so in a more tense environment where other people are jumping in with comments that make things worse. Other times I have PMd someone when I think they might not come back and check the thread (perhaps they weren't the thread starter and the thread is not a popular one, likely to sink to the back pages quickly) Sometimes there is information that I think they might find useful but I don't want to give it to them publically ("hey, I know what library has a copy of that book, I know it's out of print here's the link") I also emailed someone a link to the only used copy for sale of a particular book and had I made that info public someone else might have gotten it first. So, had any of these people chose not to get PMs they would have not gotten the information at all. I assume that people have thought this all out ahead of time and have really good reasons for not wanting private messages so I'm not going to try to bother them once they've made it clear that they don't want to be bothered and so I'll opt to not to say anything at all rather than post it in public.

In my math curriculum some topics take longer than others. Fractions didn't take a long time for my oldest son but long division did. However, after that we flew through some topics. Just because fractions are hard, doesn't mean that all the topics will go as slowly. My daughter took a year just to learn her addition facts to 20 and according to how it's scheduled in the curriculum, it should only take about 4 months. During that year I did flashcards and manipulatives, and pictures, and flashmaster AND Saxon drill sheets AND Rod and Staff timed sheets.. but wait there's more! (It's Ginsu math) I did not only Singapore's primary series, but also Singapore's My Pals Are Here Math AND Intensive Practice AND Christian Liberty Press...and that was just for her to get her number facts. How will she make it to algebra by the ninth grade at this rate? We're using a curriculum with less than 180 lessons per academic year. The grade with the least lessons has about 120 and the grade with the most lessons has 140. We also chose a curriculum that prepares kids for algebra by 7th grade, so even if she's a year late, she'll be in algebra by 8th. If she's two years behind she'll be ready by ninth. She can work on Saturdays...even Sundays...and summers. Non mathy people just have to work more to compensate.

No doubt it's in NEM! The trend in America seems to be to push this down into elementary school. Graphing isn't in the primary series and some see this as a gap since they may be familiar with their neighborhood school that does this earlier. Since we aren't planning on using NEM for high school I haven't gone through it with a fine tooth comb to see how it covers induction (see Cali state standards for analysis (pre-calc) or how often their inequalities require applying the transitive property of inequalities to solve. I don't know that I'd worry about it even if I found that there were pre-calc "gaps" since the kid would finish the series at the end of the 10th grade, we'd have time to do pre-calc when pre calc is normally done anway.

I must be a dolt. :crying: I am familiar with the items on the mathematics section of the SAT and for the life of me I don't know what kind of reasoning distinguishes it from what happens in a good math program (or perhaps what ought to be a good math program if there are none). When I see the test items I just see the sort of questions that are found in a rigorous math program...the kind that given 10 minutes per item would be not be difficult to solve, but given 50 seconds per items would lower one's success rate. So speed is definitely a limiting factor here. And then there are questions in which you have to mentally recall and coordinate several concepts at once, which isn't so much a different kind of reasoning but a bigger better mousetrap as far as test items go.

Gwen, I was wondering about that too. Let's say I am characterizing the argument correctly by summarizing it as, "The SAT is about reasoning and is not about math. Therefore no math program helps prepare a student for the SAT. " (Or maybe the argument is that it uses math to assess reasoning? Maybe it's just a glorified IQ test?) Is the missing premise "No math program helps students to reason"? Can a student be good at math but not good at reasoning? That seems like like a contradiction based on things I've heard mathematicians say. This is confusing. I also find it difficult to come up with a conclusion based on multiple anecdotes of "yes it does work" or "no it didn't work" since the plural of anecdote is not data.

With 2 bedroom condos going for half a million dollars in and around Providence and the conclusion is that going out to eat more than twice a year is what's causing the pinch in their finances?

Since 4 7/8 is the sum of two numbers, your child should know that he can mentally convert this to 4 + 7/8, such that 10 - 4 7/8 can be solved in the following two steps.... 10 - 4 = 6 6 - 7/8 = 5 1/8 If your child can not mentally subtract a fraction from a whole number then you need to back up and work on that first. If you give him 3 - 2/3 and are met with a blank stare, back up yet again and take fractions away from "1" such as 1 - 7/8 and 1 -2/3...or flip back through your book, maybe a grade level back and review those problems in which this is taught.

Singapore is praised for NOT covering certain topics that one sees in American math. This is what is meant by American math programs being "a mile wide and an inch deep." On the whole I don't consider the lack of certain topics in the curriculum a problem at all, on the contrary, I look at this is a benefit. Side by side scope and sequence is nearly useless. I will try to explain using an example of a topic found in a pre-calc course: While the inclusion of a topic into a textbook allows for someone reviewing the book to check it off on a list, one gets no insight into if the topic is treated in such a way as to do any good. Since mathematical induction is on the list and of personal interest to me I will use it as an example and discuss its inclusion and treatment in several texts that I have: 1. One textbook I have tells the student to prove a particular result by mathematical induction. A sketch is given of the proof as a footnote at the bottom of the page. No example is given before the student attempts his proof. 2. Another textbook includes it as the last chapter in a doorstop tome. Fat chance anyone will get to it. It's technically there though. 3. Another "teaches" induction by giving such a generalized example of how it works that only a mathematician would get anything out of it. Student is provided with only three difficult practice problems. 4. The textbook that I'm using gives 8 complete examples of mathematical induction, each with not a detail left out so that each proof takes up an entire page in small print (the much decried mindless formalism, but that's magically what it took for me to finally understand) Forty practice problems are given beginning with the easist and most concrete and ending with very general formulas. Many of the problems provide a result which will be used in a later problem so that increasingly sophisticated results are obtained. 5. Thomas and Finney (A college level calculus text, I was curious how a student who didn't get around to induction in high school might end up learning it in college) teaches mathematical induction by use of an informal sketch in a side bar. I haven't gone through the entire calculus book to see which problems require this, but let's hope students got a good dose of it in high school before getting to Calculus, because I don't think the token gesture of including it as a topic would be enough for me. No doubt, if I had to rely on side bars for learning important topics I'd be one of the 50% who drops that class. It's a far easier thing to come up with a list of topics that ought to be taught than it is to formally characterize how these topics need to be covered. Side bar coverage, foot notes, sketches, authors' digressing into monolgues on the topic in the text but without giving the student any problems as well as inadequate problem sets may permit a box checker to check a box saying that "we teach that too!" but they are very nearly tantamount to not including the topic at all. My conclusion is that "covering" a topic without covering it with adequate depth or without providing an adequate foundation is pedgogical ignorance at its best. It results in kids not being ready for algebra, the school seeing that the kids aren't ready for algebra in the ninth grade push algebra and algabraic topics down into the lower grades. (Begin Rant) How do these turkeys reason that if they can't get the ninth graders to do these things that they are now magically going to get the eighth graders to do them?? And so they push the topics lower--when they see the kids can't graph equations, rather than working harder on the equations themselves, they push things like graphing down into sixth grade. But it wasn't the act of graphing caused the problem of not being able to graph equations it was difficulty with the equations! Another example. When kids have trouble on word problems which require use of calculators teachers use up valuable instructional time on technology rather than math. Does it really take six years to teach someone how to use a graphing calculator? I think not. God help these kids when they find out they are going to have to do their math in a spread sheet--math that they didn't learn because they were too busy learning about a specific kind of technology. I am not saying that there doesn't arrive a point in which someone needs to use a calculator, I am saying that these kinds of things shouldn't be shoved down into the sixth grade as if it requires years of training to figure out. The absence of these kinds of topics do not make me worry one bit. I've never heard of an engineering major dropping out because he couldn't figure out how to use a graphing calculator. I have heard of them dropping out because they were weak in various topics in calculus. And while I'm on the "what about the topic of calculators" I can't seriously believe that someone who is college material really can't pick up the instruction booklet and figure out how to use a calculator is a matter of a few evenings on his own...that's the way that I learned to do it in college, that's the way that my husband learned to do it...in fact, I had specialized training on how to use a slide rule!!! Somebody should have spent a little more time teaching me matrix algebra and a little less time on slide rules. Technology comes and goes, but the math stays the same. So the more difficult issue to consider isn't the exclusion of all the 3,230,679,102 topics that publishers cram into their textbooks so that they can market themselves as in "We do this topic! We do fractals in the third grade and limits in the fourth, peano arithmetic in kindergarten, and calculator projects in fifth!" the difficult issue is trying to determine the relative importance of the topics left out. Now, I do not have the American Singapore program, we are still using the third edition from Singapore because that is what I happened to buy at the time, but there were a few things that I was worried about. For example, I didn't see division of decimals and fractions and order of operations done in depth in by the end of the sixth grade. However, it shows up in the first few chapters of NEM I which is just a continuation of arithmetic and I plan on doing the first few chapters of NEM to cover those (I did this with my older son). In the lower grades, Singapore doesn't do calendar work, for example. But do you really think that a kid who has been solving word problems such as "Samy spent 3/4 of his money on 3 mangoes and 6 apples. If a mango cost 3 times as much as an apple, how many apples, could he buy with the rest of his money?" isn't going to figure out the calendar in two seconds in the sixth grade assuming he didn't already figure it out? I'd bet that half the general public can't do that word problem, but can figure out what the date is a week from today, or how many weeks it is until Christmas. I can figure out how to include a little calendar work on the side in a particular context with little kids. I don't need to be told how to get my kid to memorize how to write a date, his birthday, when the vacations are, etc. It's clear, that calendar skills, while dealing with numbers, are not math problems per se...although (and I'm still ranting) it seems to be the case that if a problem has a numeral involved in it somewhere, somehow, a publisher will consider it worthy of its own topic and training in a math book for kids...or how about Roman numerals? I teach those by pointing out a real clock in our living room. The kids ask about page numbers in a preface of a book I'm reading. Tally marks are learned while playing dominoes. These things are important because they indicate cultural literacy more than numeracy itself. I don't worry about them. Not knowing how to do such things isn't why a student has trouble in algebra and any middle class parent that interacts with their kids is going to have a multitude of "teachable moments" in real life in which to make their kids culturally literate.

Inquiring Minds! I will have a second and third grader. My plans include teaching the grammar once they are old enough for Henle, but what to do until then? I have Minimus and it doesn't seem so much like teaching Latin as an entertaining "Latin Appreciation"...:glare: I am also trying to avoid Latin books that present words without context such as lists and matching activities, I saw a sample of Prima Latina and that's not what I'm looking for either. :confused:

Constanta, Romania, where Ovid was exiled by Augustus. I'd take my Ovid with me and read it by the seaside. Monasteries, tulips, and wine tours come to mind also.

That was fabulous help! Thanks for the many details. I'll try to get a copy right away.

I don't think one can have a true sense of identity without knowing one's background. Western Civilization and the thought that produces goes our ideas of fairness, justice, government, democracy, criticism, free speech, freedom of religion, logic, literature, jury system, attitudes toward education, empire, multiculturalism, elitism and even Christianity itself, is based, not on modern France, not on modern Hispanic civilzation, nor on Germany (other popular languages to study) but on Rome and Greece. The way to directly tap into the cultures that gave birth to us is by studying their languages, literature, history and what their greatest orators and thinkers had to say. You will discover in the process that there is nothing new under the sun about the experiences, travails, difficulties, and politics in modern society. Other than architecture, art, literature, language, sanitation(sewage), aqueducts, education, irrigation, calendar, coins, cement and bricks, public heated baths, turnips and carrots, paved streets and pavements, apples, pears and grapes, welfare (free food) for poor citizens, roads, wine, towns, glass, street cleaners, shops, laws, tenement blocks, public order, firemen and police, parks, cabbages & peas, and public libraries, and our alphabet what did the Romans ever do for us? :D Tracy Lee Simmons' book "Climbing Parnassusa" gives all the historical details about the role of Latin and Greek in education for the past 2000 years up to the modern day and its inspiration accounts for why we choose to pursue a Classical Education.

I was swamped when I did a search for this on these boards. Specifically, I want to know the grade level at which this program begins. In other words, is it for high school students? Would one begin it at the same time one would ordinarily begin Henle (junior high)? Or is it for middle school students? I had no problem with teaching Henle to my son in the fifth grade so if you tell me it requires the same level of maturity that will give me an idea! I'm wondering if Henle plus an immersion approach might not be overkill, but I guess I can figure that out when I get physically get to see the book. If it's okay for younger students that would be great too.

I have not encountered a shortage of math topics to teach that can honestly be included in an algebra course. My son will finish algebra I, the first half of seventh grade and it will take him another 9-12 months to do a rigorous proofy geometry book. So what then for high school? Beginning in the ninth grade our kids will have these options for math classes: Algebra II, college geometry (Solomonovich) yes again, but it's at a much higher level more abstract and formal than a traditional Euclidean geometry book, trig, Pre-Calc (such as the old Doliciani)...from the Anneli Lax Mathematical Library Series there are mini-courses (books) available that teach Topology and Number Theory (even cryptoanalysis!) at the high school level, art of Problem Solving has a text that can be used to teach Probability. This should keep them more than busy for at least three years in high school without going off to the community college to take engineering calculus which is required course in a profession that they may not even be interested in pursuing.

It's my understanding that the official Singapore Science program doesn't begin until 3rd grade, which is the year in which the child turns nine. I have some of the texts for first grade and I ended up not using them because they were too babyish and not enough science. I think that part of that might be because of the ESL situation of the students using them, but I'm not sure. Since science isn't required until the third grade I've wondered if the 1st and 2nd grade i-science weren't token gestures because Sing Science really does seem solid in the 3rd grade. At any rate, I used My Pals are Here with my older son and he just recently finished sixth grade. I have a seven year old second grader and a six year old first grader that I will keep together in this series. (MPH, not i-science but only because I already had the MPH texts for my older son, not because there is anything wrong with i-science) So far I have been sporadically reading through the text with them and having them do copy work, from the outline given in the test booklet (it summarizes main points) in order to familiarize them with new vocabulary words and to help them since their reading level doesn't match what is required by the text. Also they've been checking out books from the library on science topics of interest that they've been coming across in the text. I will start the program in earnest (experiments and tests) in January which would correspond to the beginning of the third grade in Singapore. I'll try to include my daughter at this level even though technically she will be a year too young, and hopefully her reading skills and maturity will be enough to do this successfully. She's doing very well with the concepts, but she will need to improve her reading skills if there is any hope of her reading or taking tests independently of me.

I did check the URL to make sure that I hadn't accidentally clicked onto the Onion. I don't know what to say. Once they hit the world of working adults they will look back on their college days as nirvana.

DS 7 is in Sing 3A and just learned long division. DD 6 is in Sing 1B and did her first exercise with addition with regrouping. I suspect she'll take the entire second grade year to get through singapore 2. It took her an entire year to memorize her addition facts to 20! Singapore 2nd grade covers addition and subtraction with regrouping and multiplication and division within 5.

A Certain Ambiguity It's so good I'm limiting myself to a few pages at a time to make it last longer and to give myself time to think about some of the proposed philosophical problems before the answer is blurted out. What "Sophies World" is to philosophy, this is to math. I'm really anxious for someone else from this board to read this book and tell me what they think.

Could you be more specific about the details of the negative reviews that make you reconsider this book? There are in general three that I am aware of: It's not Christian enough, it's too Christian, and it mixes mythology/fictional accounts with history. I will only address the third criticism. Learning the myths and beliefs of cultures that existed in the past is a part of history. You need only preface the reading of the chapter with, "The Greeks believed the following story..." or "I am going to tell you a made up story but we think the details reflect what might have happened." Without dragging out all four volumes and analyzing them I have the vague impression that the use of "stories" are fewer in the volumes for the later grades.

I prefer to get fiction from the library, but I buy nonfiction. One reason I want to own nonfiction is because several times a day I need to pull out a book and refer to something in it, I also make notes in the margins and on the blank pages at the end of the book that I refer to. When I no longer anticipate a need for a book I give it away or resell it. One option to heavy shelves that I am looking forward to when it evolves a little more (right now it's incompatible with pdf files) are text readers such as Amazon's "Kindle." You buy a book and download onto a small wireless device that you can carry in your purse. I imagine it would be useful to have my entire library with me at all times! I'd like to download some of those google books to read but they are in pdf format and it doesn't look like I'll be able to read them anywhere but on my computer. Husband tells me they make wireless devices such as these on which you can write on the screen and it saves it to file on the page of the book, so maybe the day will arrive in which I can still have my marginalia!

We use Gelfand as a supplement and it's my impression that it was designed to be used that way although H Wu has an article up about what the shortcomings might be when using it as a primary program. Our primary math program is something that is out of print.