I used a book that we used for Australian history, that had lots of subheadings and short paragraphs.YOu could use a library book, information from the internet, etc. Many people have said, including SWB, that the Kingfisher Encyclopedia is too hard to outline. I found SOTW too long to outline. I bought the Remedia outlining books. I dont think they are necessary for most kids and we only used them briefly. Even my reluctant, dyslexic writer finds outlining ok- probably because it involves making something long into something short! I think you also need to allow a certain amount of leeway in the child choosing the main point- in other words, what you think is the main point may not be what the child thinks. We did it together for a while, so that the child could model from me, but then I let the child work it out for themselves.

I don't agree that this is necessarily true, although I understand the reasoning behind it. I feel that most programs have weaknesses and strengths. Sticking with one program, you get both- it's weaknesses and it's strengths. I also feel that sticking with one program for years and years can be boring and uninspiring. Yes, jumping from program to program, curriculum hopping, because you hope the next program will be the magic answer rather than you having to do the work of teaching or facilitating your own children- it's not going to get you where you want and you will waste time. But I feel that changing programs can also be very useful for a fresh approach, and the belief that " jumping around makes gaps and holes " is not going to apply to every situation.

My kids are 12 and 14 and they have said the same to me. I also tried to shift them to independent history spine reading, and I got the same response- it is so much more enjoyable when we do it together as we always have done. I also enjoy it. They do do plenty of independent reading- there is just something about doing history together, the main spine, that we all enjoy, and I am all for what works, rather than following others' rules.

Yes, natural yeast bread IS sourdough bread. It just uses yeasts collected from the atmosphere and/or grapeskins, instead of commercial yeast. You can also make natural yeast/ sourdough starters using a small amount from another starter, like with yoghurt. Some sourdough starters have been passed down for generations. ETA: not that you can use yoghurt as a starter, I didnt mean to imply that- just the same idea of using a little bit to make the next batch applies to natural yeast starters as well.

I have just started R&S6 with my 12yo son. I don't think he could do it without my help - we are doing the script in the TM first, then we go over the lesson in the book, then the oral exercises- then the review (or sometimes I do the review at the beginning of the next lesson instead), THEN I have him do the worksheet independently. So far, it takes 15 minutes or so together, maybe another 15 to do the worksheet if he is busy arguing with me over it! He keeps telling me they are so easy that they are boring, but he still gets several wrong, usually! I have a friend whose 2 girls work pretty independently on R&S, but no way could my son, and it is one of the benefits of homeschooling, that I can work with him. We will probably do the sentence diagramming on the whiteboard to some extent, but I will have him do some independently. It would be great if I could just hand him the book, but our reality is, that's not going to result in much learning. The length of the instructions in R&S6 is such that he couldn't read and absorb them- grammar gets so abstract.

We just had state elections here in my state in Australia. I was telling Dh I didnt really know who to vote for, so he told me, as if I didn't have a clue. Actually, I do have a clue, I just find them all pretty pathetic! Anyway, no, apparently we don't agree. I am pretty left wing- actually, I put environment before economics- wheras he is not so environmentally caring and far more to the right, although he is no where near as "right" as many here! :)

[quote name=Spy Car;517479 With the long fermenting bread' date=' do you use commercial yeast or wild yeasts? I'm "cook" but have never been much of a "baker" but I read with interest a book by Nancy Silverton a few years back on how she got a natural starter going from wild yeasts from grape skins and how she keeps it perpetuated. Interesting read. Bill I haven't yet ventured to sourdough (I did try recently but wasn't very good at taking care of it so it went mouldy) but my bread recipe makes 3-4 decent sized loaves with 1/2 tsp of commercial yeast. When you leave the dough out for a good 6-12 hours (overnight) the yeast has plenty of time to work and completely transforms. The problems people have with commerical yeast are because the bakeries use so much of it to make their bread rise quickly so they can make more money- therefore there is a lot of yeast, and the bread is cooked before the yeast has fully transformed so it tends to ferment in your stomach instead. Traditionally people always left dough to rise for many hours...nowadays, it's risen too quick and therefore people have lots of problems with digesting bread. However, I do intend to explore the realm of sourdough starters at some stage. A friend of mine has this bread recipe, which I am using, up on his website (scroll down). Well, probably more info than you want, Bill, but maybe someone else is interested. http://www.2die4livefoods.com.au/recipes.html

I did the Iliad with two 12 years olds and an 11year old, after reading LCC. I found this very useful: http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1984/2/84.02.09.x.html In particular I found it useful because it showed the most important chapters to cover. We listened to an audio sometimes, although we all also took turns reading parts aloud. I did have the TC lectures by Vandiver, and we did listen to a few of them, but timewise, the Iliad is already so long, we didn't have time to do it all. I also found these useful: http://edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_images/lesson587/HeroCycle.pdf http://www.learningtogive.org/lessons/unit141/lesson1.htm One assignment I gave the kids was to write about a battle, or the battle, from the perspective of one of the characters. Both the boys chose Achilles. My dd wrote from the perspective of Andromache. It was very touching. Since my kids were younger, and we were using a full length version, we read parts, I chose assignments appropriate to their age, and overall we all got a lot out of it.

I voted that I was happy with what we have done. I feel I have focused on skills a lot- even if my younger still struggles with them, we couldn't have done any better. And, I am happy with our history content. Science content was lacking but it doesn't seem to have mattered now they are doing classes for Science. The one area though, now that I think about it, I wish we had spent more time was French. I feel we just keep going back to the beginning even though we have been dabbling in it for years. It's ok, but it would be nice to be further ahead by now.

Dd14 goes to her room about 8pm. I am not sure what time she really goes to sleep, but my official lights out time for her is 9pm. I get her up at 6.45 and she really likes her sleep. The only day she can sleep in is Saturday mornings when she sleeps till 10am sometimes. She really needs 9 hours sleep at least. She is not a morning person, but since she has so many afternoon activities she doesn't have the luxury of starting her schoolwork in her own time- it wouldn't get done. She loves late nights and partying and sleepovers and camps....but she seems to have the common sense to catch up on sleep when she can.

I have some unscented coconut I am using for cooking. I also use ghee (clarified butter)- love the flavour. I do a lot of Indian vegetarian cooking and ghee is essential. Mostly however we use virgin cold pressed good quality olive oil for cooking and salad dressing. Occasionally a drop or two of toasted sesame oil for flavour. I believe most other oils to be fairly toxic to some degree. We certainly don't touch canola.

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That's why I don't even consider low carb diets any more. They are not sustainable for many of us. And, I even get depressed on them and feel like cr*p.

My ds12.5 just in these last 2-3 months has learned to write beautifully. For a long time he woulnd't use cursive when writing assignments, and I allowed that, because it was a battle having him write at all (and I don't use cursive as an adult). I have had him continue daily handwriting practice for years- sometimes a handwriting program, but mostly using Startwrite and copywork passages. I have been through stages of just having him use printing, and others where i insisted he use cursive just for his handwriting practice. He tried- I knew he was trying- but he just didn't have good fine motor control. I had pretty much resigned myself to him never being a neat handwriter. Then this year he was diagnosed dyslexic. I had him learn Brain Gym with a kinesiologist who spent 6 months working with him- and in that time, wow, he just changed. He can now write a lot more, and he has beautiful handwriting. It was almost miraculous and virtually an apparently overnight change. Now the challenge is to get his handwriting speed up because he is so proud of his beautiful handwriting he really takes his time with it. I have to really fight him to get him to cross something out instead of using an eraser when he is doing dictation. So he is testimony to the power of persistence!

Humans are such social creatures- we are interdependent with our communities and environments. There are street kids in my city less than 10 years old. They survive, through cunning, stealing, begging, prostitution- but it's hardly ideal. In past generations, young women 12 or so might have been sent to work for wealthier families. In India, many kids are taught begging and scavenging from a young age. Many of our grandfathers may have left school and joined the workforce at around age 14 or 15. I would say nature might have set it up that we are ready to stand on our own, without so much direct parental input, from around puberty. However, that doesn't mean kicked out from the tribe to survive in the wilderness alone (although that was/is a common initiation rite of many traditional cultures). We would still be surrounded by support.

I like what momof7 wrote. I find them contrived when they summarise the paragraph. I mean, you just read the paragraph, you're not stupid.

What a funny thread. Hot tea not a problem here....am amazed at the responses because my issue is that its such a short time till we have both drunk our tea, it's all over too soon. And one cup each has always been the limit. Not frequent tea drinkers, but neither of us concerned. Its fun but not such a big deal. No interest in embellishments from either of us, although every now and then I read a book or listen to a tape (or come here and read a thread like this :) ) and I try some experimentation. Haven't ventured to buy anything though. But really, we like our tea fairly plain and it's good.

I asked my husband. He said life for him began when he was about 28 :) I put I don't know, because I don't. But from another perspective, I think everything is alive anyway- the earth, the trees, even the rocks. There is a living force, that some call God, that permeates everything at all times, and we can never be separate from it, but neither can anything else. That's what the saints and masters became aware of, and why they can love unconditionally, rather than separate life and people into bits that are worthy and unworthy. I think a better question than when does life begin, is when does consciousness begin? When is a baby aware of itself? An omeoba responds to its environment. So does a plant cell. So the ability to respond to its environment doesn't really count as a criteria. I can't remember when I became aware of myself. My memories stretch back to about age 3.

I am just wondering what is different about your diet, your cooking, the food in your cupboard, since reading NT. How has it affected your approach to food and cooking? What are your favourite recipes? For me, I am making my own long fermented bread, I am making "crispy nuts" regularly, and I tend to soak all grains before cooking if I remember in time. For example, if I use brown rice I will soak it. If I want to make porridge I will tend to soak it overnight. I have tried some other recipes like beet kvass, and mould tends to form quite quickly which is disappointing.

Because I like being with them, and we all love the lifestyle that is relatively without the interference of a large part of "society" that is institutionalised schooling. It is a freedom I really value.

1. I think I would be playful about it. You are as you are. I have friends who tell me things- sometimes quite opinionated and strong- and I just let them roll off and then carry on doing my own thing with a smile. By just smiling and carrying on, I leave myself open to taking on board what they are saying, rather than locking onto a position which I may want to change later, IYKWIM! As in, if you think your friend may have a point, you can laugh about yourself, then still do what you need to do. 2. I am not sure I would necessarily say anything if I wasn't directly asked. It's not really their business unless they ask you respectfully and you choose to share what you do. I would tend to wait till their curiosity got the better of them. And even then, don't say too much unless they genuinely want to know. They probably don't really want to change, they would like to continue doing what they are doing and end up with kids like yours :). So I would just mind my own business and wait till they really, really want to know enough to genuinely ask.

I agree with Laura that it is probably a matter of personality. I have just discovered that my dd14 hasnt been reading one of her assigned books. She is a happy, friendly kid who says "sure mum" when you tell her to do something. But, it doesn't mean she will actually follow through and do it unless you watch her to make sure she does it NOW. She wont necessarily mean to not do it- she will just forget, get distracted, on something very important (to her!). I have a schedule on each of their desks. I sit in the school room 90% of the time they are working. I have learned I need to check their work, to notice what they are doing, because, bless them, they are normal kids who might even try and do less than what is on their schedules if they think I won't notice :001_rolleyes: Both of mine DO work fairly independently- well, my son less than my daughter. But, he can read his schedule and knows what to do- he just likes to interact a lot :). I would expect some kids to naturally prefer to not have mum watching over their shoulder, or to want to do their work willingly. Unfortunately I have the other kind of kids, who can do their work, but really need me, an external force, to structure them, to be on their case to some extent (not necessarily nagging, just helping them refocus). Many teenagers cannot structure their time well,and it is something they often, even usually, need help with. So I don't think it would be unusual to have a preteen who still needs lots of help in that area.

But don't you have the other WW system over there in the U.S. as well? The no counting one? That one worked for me. I know it does vary from country to country but in the Australian version you can eat any lean meat, two pieces of bread, any fruit and veg, low fat yoghurt, milk etc...all before counting points. In other words, you can fill up, you don't have to be hungry, but you have to eat within a certain range of foods and only at meal times (fruit between meals). Then all the other stuff, such as the more luxurious and oily foods in NT, could count towards the extra points you are allotted. I have lost weight on WW but gee is can be hard. I am eating more NT lately and I do enjoy butter, cream, bacon :), but in moderation, and I don't seem to be putting on weight. (Not losing it either but I am not overweight, but not skinny. ) I did go from wanting to lose a small amount and joining up to WW online recently, over to NT. Kind of two extremes, really, aren't they? But NT makes me feel satiated on smaller quantities of food, which I find harder with WW. In the end, anything which is a big change from your normal eating patterns is doomed to failure. The best bet is to change your normal eating patterns slowly and form new habits. I find just thinking about my worst offenders helps- whether its nuts, which it sometimes is, or sweet things, which it sometimes is. Then I allow myself smaller amounts of them and overall cut back. Anything which deprives or restricts me can't work for long, and WW is the worse for that, even though I have lost weight on it.

It's interesting seeing how others do things. I also use Ambleside, but I prioritise writing so that there is at least a 30-45r slot of writing a day, 3-4 days a week, although I vary what subject that writing is connected with- sometimes I will have them work on a longer assignment over several days, sometimes they will do a shorter history assignment, or literature, basic narration or a freewrite, or a writing program. At the moment I have made space for my older to do an online writing course which takes her an hour a day. Writing is a priority- higher than Latin, for example, even though Latin is also important to us. So we have a half hour slot per day for Latin OR French. I think Ambleside is already a very, very full curriculum and if you are trying to do Ambleside, realise you cant add to it, without making your day very long- unless you are willing to take away from it as well. I am constantly wanting to add to Ambleside and constantly reshuffling and having to drop from it too. Altohugh CM advocated shorter days, Ambleside done as is, is not a particularly short day once you get into the older years. So, you have added a lot of foreign language to a basic Ambleside....something has to give. If your son loves Latin and Greek, perhaps he can do some in his own time? I believe older children at Ambleside did have work they did in the evenings- reading for example. Of course, they had more time in the sense that they didnt have such rushed lives, no TV and computers. Another possibility is to do some of the reading in 'free time', rather than school time. I think we all go through this issue- prioritising, realising the hours in the day are finite, and having to work within them. I remember the surprise I got when I did the schedules in Managers of Our Homes- like, wow, no wonder I was feeling so stressed, I just couldnt do it all.

Just my 2 cents here but I don't think any 5th grader is going to be "stalled at the grammar stage of thinking". Many kids don't start thinking logically, as in "logic stage thinking" until they are 13, 14, 15 years old, and some of the other approaches (from WTM) take this into account. My own kids, one of whom is quite academically bright, have not started thinking in the logic stage way until recently, and they are 12 and 14. It is a gradual think, not something that always starts 5th grade. Although those 3 four year stages are nicely convenient for planning- our kids have their own agendas. Not that you cant start moving in that direction of course, but dont expect logic stage thinking just yet. Just my thoughts on your comment. Dont expect too much too soon...slowly slowly.