You are correct. Gothard knew just how insane some of his stuff was. He didn't want it to fall into the hands of people who weren't committed. So it started out with folks having to sign up to take the Basic Seminar. I want to say that those were 2 or3 day events, and even in the mid-80's, about $800 tuition per couple if memory serves. Then they could sign up for the advanced seminar. The Basic was legalistic crap but potentially not all that much more legalistic than say IFB or a few others. Just enough weirdness to be different, but not alarmingly different. The Advanced Seminar was like $1200-1500 per couple. If that was completed, couples were eligible to join and buy the newsletters and the more egregious materials. They had ways of tracking it. If memory serves, people had to turn in workbooks at the end of the seminars to show that they were paying attention and answering questions. The application was bizarrely exhaustive and deeply personal. They kept all of that personal information, so they could use the information against you in the future. If anyone decried Gothard or something the organization was up to, they released information like, "This person cannot be trusted because they engaged in premarital sex or had an alcoholic parent" things like that. He believed in the sins of the father being visited down, in the form of demon possession, to the children for multiple generations so having all of that data on folks allowed him to control them. "Accuse me of molesting the intern? Oh ya, Well I am going to tell everyone that grandma spent time in mental hospital and that means you are insane and demon possessed according to god." Not a direct quote. Just giving you an idea of the tactics. He ended up falling out of favor with some fundamentalist churches because lower income families could not afford to remain in IBLP which was just a huge amount of money annually, and buy wisdom booklets for their kids, and the newsletters, and then turn around and tithe at church. It was the thing that caused my parents church to eventually drop him and declare him a false prophet. Not what he preached. Not what he did, and he was a well known creepster even by then. It was the gravy train. Once it impacted offerings then suddenly, he was a bad dude. My parents never got why I considered their church and pastor to be so horrible. He got the whole church into it, and then when it came to the almighty dollar, the guy was suddenly wrong. Where is the head banging emoji when you need it?

I don't want to weigh in here anymore about the book or Jinger. But I do want to issue a warning about deep diving into Gothard materials. It is really just not suitable for some folks. There is a lot there that could be VERY triggering for some who have suffered spiritual abuse and especially so if sexually abused. Many years ago I posted some screen shots of the "counseling" materials for victims of s.a. Folks were asking; I complied. At the time, I had the entire set of the crazy IBLP training materials plus the even MORE insane newsletters. I got some seriously angry emails about not having trigger warnings, and questions as to whether or not it was even appropriate to post the information. From the standpoint of "internet search", there was nothing that would lead creeps to this forum. However, there were folks who wandered into the thread for the discussion, and then really had a hard time when they read those posts. This isn't for everyone, and I want to make that clear before anyone goes looking for his stuff. The worst, the craziest, the most bizarre, and the most abusive stuff was not even in the ATI seminar materials. That was practically " normal" compared to his newsletters which members could subscribe to (for very large sums of money) in order to get his added revelations and become even better christians. IBLP, in an effort to keep itself afloat since 2014 when they ousted him for good, have been purging that whenever they can and instructing members to burn or shred the materials. My guess is the excuse is, "to keep them out of the devil's hands" which is code for "There is no way in hell Gen Z ie ever gonna fall for this crap, and we need to keep the gravy train rolling." The newsletters were the source for, "If midwives remove, barbies, troll dolls, and cabbage patch dolls from the house, mothers in birth crisis will easily be able to deliver their babies", indirect quote because I don't have the exact verbiage memorized. So ya...demon possessed toys are the reason women can't have easy home births. 😠 And a bunch of dingdongs took medical advice like this and way more from their god/leader who had exactly ZERO medical knowledge of any kind. But, he claimed to be a prophet, and folks fell for it. Same old same old. He was also an advocate of Pearls parenting, and is the source for how Michelle became acquainted with blanket training and was an advocate of it on a Christian mothering forum until they got the TLC gig, and TLC expunged her online presence. Back in the early 2000's, there was a boardie who found screen shots of her posts and posted them here. It was eye opening, and well, suffice it to say, the Duggars should have had their children taken away from them. Michelle beat babies as young as six months old with rulers to train them to be terrified to leave a blanket once they could crawl. Then she never had to worry about them until the oldest girls could become sistermoms and take care of them for her. So please please be super careful if you go looking for this crap. It can be really distressing.

Agreed. I really didn't want to book anything with them to begin with, but had not been able to find anything else within our budget. It is so costly to volunteer for these things, but we really want to help. I am happy to have finally found something else.

So we are taking one of our rocket that am alumni to American Rocketry Challenge in May. The three of us are NAR volunteers to help put on the competition. I have been trying to get reservations for a condo for the three of us which is actually cheaper than two hotel rooms for four nights, plus a full kitchen which is such a huge advantage in saving money on food and eating better since I have gluten issues. Their website is insane. They want the driver's license photo, then a webcam photo, and then they have bot software to do facial recognition but the software is so bad it can't match ANY photos I send. None. It isn't like I have had plastic surgery or become disfigured or something since my driver's photo was taken. Mark tried it thinking his photos might match better, and the website will not allow him to start his own account and wants to link everything to my account due to the software apparently tracking the IP address. He called customer service, and they said they can't help. Nothing is working right. They were extremely rude. Now I get blinged on my phone every five minutes with a new security code to type in to try to make changes to my account, but they have the timer off on the code so it instantly expires. Not exaggerating. In the 20 seconds it takes for me to look at the text, and then go to air bnb screen to type it in, it is already an invalid code. Thankfully, I just checked vrbo, our preferred company, and a new listing just popped up. It is right where we need it to be, really nice little townhouse with full kitchen, and it is going to end up being $100 less than the AirBnB. I never ever have trouble booking with Vrbo. How does AirBnB stay in business with all the hoop jumping, rude customer service, and software that doesn't work?

Tonight my plans went well. I was unable to get the broccoli or brussels into the boys, but they did want the spaghetti and ate it well. They each had a handful of baby carrots, and to get a 2nd veggie in them I made "bugs on the log" with celery sticks, my son in laws vegan cream cheese, and peanuts. This was a big hit. They also ate a tangerine a piece and finished off the strawberries. I did manage to down some spaghetti and a few brussels. It took a lot of mind over matter because I was feeling really nauseous from all the coughing. But except for juice, I hadn't eaten in 3 days. I am feeling so wiped out. We have all been tested for covid multiple times. Still negative. Hopefully tomorrow the boys have even more appetite.

Thank you. That is very nice. The thing is, discussing it does not bother me anymore. I am in a very good place. But I have realized over the years that whenever IBLP and similar cults pop up in threads, I tend to trigger other people. That doesn't help anyone. And I don't know how to talk about these groups without making the conversation snowball,so I think it is best for me not to comment from here on out.

I won't say more on the topic. Everyone has their own take away.

Yes. I finally did. I waited until I could come by a free copy because I am not willing to funnel money to MacArthur through the Vuolos. I think my take on her writings are very different from others because of my extensive experience with IBLP and my deep dive into MacArthur and Grace Community.

I do. I have a problem with it because the person chosen was NOT a writer for Harper and Collins. It was the chief of communications for John MacArthur, his right hand man. Big red flag. But I don't expect people to understand that if you haven't been a part of the "umbrella of authority" or total, unquestioned male dominance authority churches.

I agree with this because of what I know of MacArthur and his organization. The things that she is denouncing related to Gothard are not the things that demonstrate actual critical thinking about cult think itself. The ghost writer is Corey Williams who is the full time chief communications officer for MacArthur. If you have spent any time deep diving into MacArthur, you find that women have NO agency in the church. They are told what to do and what to think by the patriarchy. Nothing got published in the book that wasn't approved by John Mac through Corey Williams. As lateral moves go, it is in line with the heart and soul of fundamentalist religious groups. I also think this is very hard for those who have no significant experience with religious cults to understand. The performative issues of clothing, appearance, drinking alcohol or not, education for women, quiverful or not, are actually not the things that lead to deconstruction. And to be fair to IBLP, they relaxed a lot of these rules after Gothard was shown the door in 2014, and upgraded their image. Many IBLP families now use birth control. Many IBLP families are seen at ATI conferences with women in pants and sleeveless shirts, collar bones exposed. They were rapidly losing membership and in order to save the financial scam, they had to make it look more attractive to the younger folks. The underlying theology has not changed. Again, a sexual abuse victim, the author, was baptized Sept. 2021, into a cult that considers divorcing a paedophile to protect children to be a worse sin than actually being a paedophile. Let that sink in. The kind of leadership who thinks this way is not one bit "better" than Gothard, Jimbob Duggar, Mark Driscoll, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, or any other religious leaders whose total depravity has been exposed. She has exchanged one evil, s.o.b. church leader claiming to be the mouthpiece of god for another one exactly like him. What was said in the book is what Corey Williams decided reflected well on the cult. it is quite fine to poke at other cults who are competition for the money so long as the things poked at are not the things that make people actually question real theology. In my experience, and I do know a lot of people who have left IBLP and deconstructed very much away from cult like churches, the performative outward stuff wad NOT the stuff that made them think about and ultimately question their faith. It was far deeper stuff than this. Pants, drinking, birth control, those were not the things that set them on the road to deconstruction or major faith change. Not at all. It was more insidious stuff.

Lol, I posted today in the last thread. Suffice it to say, some progress on healthy eating is being made with my grand boys. They are finally beginning to perk. I am not well, and everything still tastes awful, so I am surviving on V8 juice which is the only thing that tastes at all good at the moment.

We might be seeing an improvement today. Breakfast: I made buckwheat pancakes and topped them with berries and bananas. The children actually ate. Lunch: I just gave them some sliced extra sharp cheddar cheese, strawberries, blueberries, and baby carrots. Both little ones are sampling everything on their plates. They are very worn down, and I made a big pile of pillows and blankets for them in the living room, and have let them eat there. I would say that close to half their plates have been consumed. They both asked for a graham cracker, so I said they could have more than one after they eat what is on their plates. Neither one is protesting. I think their taste buds are returning. The sinus drainage with this is wicked. Dinner: I am making spaghetti with some shredded spinach and some ground beef (Dd seriously needs to eat iron right now), roast brussel sprouts (which I am going to drizzle maple syrup butter in the hopes of tempting the boys because otherwise I think they would be too bland), and some steamed broccoli. Normally, the 3 year old will down broccoli like a ground hog in my garden. But, I have to wonder if it will still taste off. I am not going to push it because I do not want him to form a hard memory of his favorite veggie tasting nasty. Meanwhile, I subsist on V-8 juice. It is the only thing I can taste and tastes good. I did make myself a few refried beans to eat last night and put taco sauce on it. I am a legume devouring monster, and it was all I could do to make myself eat it. It just tasted like paste, like eating Elmer's glue or something.

I have had so many awful haircuts in my life that my response would be number 1, and said with great emphasis!

Bill, I am very sorry for what had to be painful to watch, as well as the loss of a friend. We have "adopted" a young adult we knew very well as a teen who has left her parents very abusive cult church. It is so difficult to witness the pain and suffering. Fortunately, she is healing, and we love having her as part of our family. She adores our dd, and looks up to her, and has a great camaraderie with our sons, whom she considers her brothers now as she has no contact with her siblings. Hopefully we can support her as she overcomes her trauma.

They did this to a woman who came to them, in confidence, for help because her husband was molesting their children. They should have reported it. The law! They didn't. And when she left her husband and filed for divorce and sole custody, the church condemned her for the divorce and used the subject material of the counseling against her. MacArthur was furious at her for leaving a pedophile, but not at the pedophile for being a pedophile! They excommunicated her, but not the criminal. I won't post the link here. It could be a very big trigger for some folks. But, for those that want to know more, it can be googled. ETA: This happened while they have attended church there, while Jeremy was working on his Master's degree at the "seminary", and while he was working on staff. So no. Jinger is not free of anything at all. She is mired down in a evil organization that will exploit her for her D list fame, and turn on her like ugly on an ape if she ever expressed any thoughts outside what Jeremy and MacArthur have deemed acceptable.

I have read "The Big Book of Trains" 3 times already today because of the 3 year old. Usborne, Dk, whomever you are, I hate you so much right now. I have The Scarlet Letter with me which I have read before, more than once, but haven't been through in a few years. The local library asked me to do a book club with some local high schoolers who hang out there, all want to major in English and Literature, and have their literature cut to the bone at the high school. I figure I need a fresh read before I get back and embark down that road. The 3 year old, however, is doing a marvelous job of foiling my plans. (Also looks disparagingly at Eric Carle and his stupid caterpillar.)

I would do this!!! Someone needs to organize this.

You did not misread. Jeremy actually works for the church and is a "doctoral" students at Master's. Jinger did not write the book. She had a ghost writer from MacArthur's staff. There is literally zero freedom. She simply exchanged one very abusive cult for another one.

👏👏👏

And yet, there is always money for more weaponry and tech. Sickening! I think the only way to facilitate change is to bankrupt police departments defending themselves from lawsuits leaving them entirely gutted. Then and only then might the powers that be listen to us. Money had always been the ONLY driving force of this country.

Failing miserably with the kiddoes, and self. We all got the upper respiratory crud the kids have, and now Dd and dsil cannot be with baby at the hospital. The collective mood is awful, and the sinus drainage makes everything taste nasty. About the only two things I have made that went down well was tacos (thankfully they eat black beans and love them because protein is especially hard to get into the boys right now) and spaghetti. We may be eating a lot of that for the next few days. They are eating some fruit. I have exactly ZERO appetite. I keep reading here to remind myself to get back on track when I am able to get a break from the intensive care giving.

I know people who have had persistent sore throat from mono, but it was accompanied by exhaustion/needing to sleep a lot.

I 💜 this. It is the same for my son in law. Sad. But I am glad we can provide love and support.

That sounds like a winning proposition to me. 2 years goes by fast, and you still have a lot of time left with your kids at the end of it.

I agree with this. But our local universities only allow the pivot to virtual if they dictate it. Some professors will do it anyway, on the down low for the students who come a long way and would be risking life and limb to come so far. With a zero tolerance attendance policy, this is a huge safety burden on the students because they cannot afford to fail a class simply because they don't want to end up in a car accident. The money these students and parents pay becomes a deciding factor which is very sad. I really hate these kinda of policies. Let the students and faculty determine the way to handle an absence when road conditions are dangerous. It is especially crazy when 70% of the student body are commuters. Ds is a guest lecturer at one of these schools. He refused to go in today. He is disabled, and this school does not even bother to clear the sidewalks or handicap parking. He would be trudging a long distance in 6-8" of snow with his cane. That is illegal, but it isn't like the schools care, and apart from an occasional slap on the wrist, nothing comes of lodging a complaint. I never recommend disabled persons attend that college. Ds does not care if they fire him/take him off the guest lecturer list. He has other sources of income, and the pay for this is pathetic. He likes to do it, but it isn't necessary.