Haters? This has been a remarkably polite discussion so far?

Yes. For some reason the prison issue never gets picked up as a side discussion...

Well, kind of? I'm undergoing investigations for early menopause. My cycle stopped for about 18 months when I was 36, then I had one period randomly, then nothing for 6 months again. My endocrinologist thinks it's a prolactinoma which is apparently very common. There are so many things that can stop/start it. The incredible stress you've had over the last year could certainly contribute.

I personally don't care if others want to share pronouns in emails/profiles but I won't. I have my reasons, you can assume my reasons are bigotry if you want. Or you can be curious or gracious.

I'm in Australia. Our laws specifically mention psychotherapy. And yes, the issue is that gender identity has been tacked on to lgb conversion therapy with no nuance.

Affirmation only laws actually limit options. As soon as the magic word 'gender' is said, the pathway options are limited to exactly 1.

That's so lovely!

Also, to clarify. My position isn't stop/ban all forms of transition. My position is, be honest about new/increased presentations. Find and offer the most effective, least invasive treatments (because all medical intervention has risk/side effects, and some people with dysphoria need other options if medical transition is contraindicated).

That is a conversation I would love to have, but we weren't allowed to have it. Anything less than affirmation only gets you banned, slandered and in my state, possible jail time. Balance needs to return, and that can't happen if any questions continue to get assumed and labelled as partisan and bigoted. another thing that I really think we need is a basic grounding in terms of biological reality. I personally am not bothered by adults transitioning, and I would be open to having my mind changed/compromise on older teens if the evidence is there (I don't believe it is, but I wouldn't insert myself between an ethical, thorough doctor and a family making the best decision in a tough spot, and I really really hope less brutal options than surgical transition are offered first). What I am absolutely unable to move forward from is the denial of biological reality. While there are male rapists in women's prisons then we have a problem. I remember in about 2012, discussions happening about using the word women for transwomen because 'we can still distinguish with the word female, and transwomen take on the social role of woman.' I don't know what happened in the last 10 years, but humans aren't special, we have a mammalian reproductive system which comes in male and female. A body made for sperm producing is different from a body made for egg producing and that has an effect- both physiological and social. A sperm producer cannot become an egg producer or vice versa. This potential function isn't all we are but it is a significant part of how we exist as physical beings in this world. I won't deny trans' people's existence or experiences, I wish many on their side wouldn't deny this. It just makes any sort of common ground impossible. Trans people should know better than anyone that sex and gender are different. I'm so so tired of the circular, semantic games.

Our state law was literally changed last year. I wasn't kidding when I said Dmmetler's response could see her facing jail time here now - up to 10 years and a $218088.00 fine.

Absolutely! If you did that in my state you'd face jail time for conversion therapy.

There actually are plenty of progressive voices, but if they are women, they get immediately unpersoned and 'smeared' as conservative and banned if they dare speak out. If they are men they usually just get ignored or the disappointed head shake (see: dawkins right now).

My bold, yes I agree. And I agree with the sentiment of taking young women's reproductive health struggles seriously as one possible factor in mitigating young women disassociating from their femaleness. I have qualms about the pill/medically controlling menstruation being the solution (I am sure you didn't mean to imply that, I'm just jumping off the point), because many times it's just used as a throw away bandaid solution enabling the further neglect of women's reproductive health care. The pill was supposed to cure my acne, 20+ years later I'm still trying to figure out my female reproductive system issues (exacerbated by hormonal contraception) and I still have pimples. 🤷‍♀️

🙂 Look, I think we're really not so extremely opposed as some might assume. I'm not so naive to think that there isn't some grey area around older teens, persistence, mental health emergencies etc. I would really like to think that as adults we could say that, and also say that other things are concerning too. There can be a balance. I want good treatments that have good long term studies, I want better options and understanding for kids struggling with dysphoria.

I would think that giving treatment that is evidence based, appropriate and proportionate would be the goal. Especially for kids. The discussion of those treatments being accessed by minors should come after their effectiveness is proven, and I'm sorry but it's far from a settled question.

The question isn't what treatments they should be allowed, the question is what is the scientific basis underpinning the huge jump in trans identification (4000+% in girls) and what are helpful, appropriate and proportional treatments. Welcome to getting shut-down for asking questions, Kt.

I had almost exactly the same experience in highschool. Sometimes walking alone, sometimes with a friend. Just a nice, interesting walk. I think a picnic would only bother me if it was in a newer part of the cemetery with the likelihood of bumping into regular ceremonies or mourners.

I love this recipe: https://www.myketokitchen.com/keto-recipes/easy-keto-indian-chicken-curry/

I would say something (via text or email) along the lines of: "That's quite a burdensome task, and I don't understand why you would need me, specifically, to do it? I love you and I am happy to help you, but I won't get involved in sorting out the minutiae of the nastiness between you - it's not my place and it's not fair of you to ask, you need to talk it over with your lawyer and/or police." For an in person conversation I'd practice something much shorter: "I won't do that, it's not my place. Sorry things are tough at the moment."

I never in my life considered the possibility that people might be able to smell ants... We have many kinds of ants everywhere (outside) here, and I have never heard anyone, ever, mention they can smell them!

I just want to make clear, I wasn't trying to start a trans conversation and - again - I'm not American or republican or upper class or hateful or whatever other assumptions and insinuations general-you might like to make. I made some observations and comments based on what I'm seeing in regards to the teen/preteen females in my life, because they are really struggling. That people immediately jumped to call me names, instead of engaging in the conversation or addressing points they found objectionable, is pretty revealing and typical of this kind of conversation imo. I get that we're all highly emotionally invested in our kids' well-being and I've said my piece, so I'm bowing out now to spend my energy on emotional teens and baking Christmas cookies. Eta - whoops didn't realise there was a page 3 haha. @Melissa Louise I felt that post 💜 hope you and yours have a lovely Christmas

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate about me, sneezy, but I don't believe I ever said misogyny went away or is new. That doesn't mean I won't see or say it when it rears itself in new ways and new costumes. Being immediately policed by accusations is pretty demonstrative.

Unbelievable I said not one word about trans people I am talking about women, and how women get a reaction somewhere between scolding (case in point) and rape/death threats for daring to insinuate that female humans should have the audacity to recognise themselves as distinct from male humans. No wonder you can't or won't see the swelling misogyny.

Yep Add in ubiquitous and violent p0rn, onlyfans, being prostituted as 'empowerment', men getting away with literal rape and murder because 'she liked it rough,' the abysmal rates of sexual and domestic violence convictions - may as well be legal. In the last 10 years, 'woman' has become an esoteric experience that mostly males seem to have, and females are just disembodied utilitarian parts. Birthing person, people with a cervix, v@gina havers, chest feeders, menstruators. Generally, I recognise the description upthread of the drama/rescue cycle. And the enormous over representation of lgbt and mental health identities. I'm seeing 10 and 11 year olds (plural) 'playing' with cutting and none of them want to be boring and cis. Honestly, I'm heartbroken.

What I remember about that conversation was a whole lot of very disheartening defensiveness... If general you really are naively buying the line that there's nothing sexual about furries, then I have a bridge you might like to purchase. I agree with you 100% re discussion vs legislation (especially for adults keeping their stuff discreet)