Great Books Program - Wish List

[The Governess]

My oldest will be an 8th grader next year and it is dawning on me that I only have a year to figure out a plan for her for high school.  I have been doing some casual research for a while, and have started threads here and there with questions (and received some great answers), but I still have work to do.  The hardest part for me is deciding on what to do for humanities.  Dd excels at math and languages, although she also loves literature and is becoming a strong writer, so her college path is really up in the air.  However, it is really important to me that she is able to study the Great Books at some time in her life, and if I want to guarantee that this study is part of her education, I need to make sure it gets done in high school. 

 

I've been researching Great Books programs, a lot.  We don't live in an area with a lot of college/university options in this field, and although there are some co-ops and private schools in the area with related classes, I don't really trust that they will teach it to the depth and with the expertise that I am looking for.  I have found many online programs, but nothing that on its own is exactly what I am looking for.  I am starting to come to the realization that I am going to have to piece some resources together to really get what I want.  And that I really need to sit down and make a list of exactly what it is that I want. 

 

So, I am creating a wishlist here with the hopes that the process that I am going through may help others that are looking for something similar, and that I can get some guidance on how to build something that will fit our needs. 

 

Here is what I am looking for:

 

1.  A study of the Great Books that is deep rather than broad

2.  An expert teacher that has a passion for the subject - either video-based or live

3.  Includes a full, chronological study of history rather than mostly literature with some history bits thrown in for context

4.  Focuses on Western Civilization but doesn't ignore the rest of the world

5.  Wraps in art, philosophy, religion, and developments in science

6.  Doesn't just assign essays but rather teaches rhetorical writing and speaking skills and assigns work that aids in their development

7.  Systematically teaches literary analysis

8.  Doesn't skimp on the modern era

9.  Possibly incorporates AP literature exam

10. Ability to discuss works with peers other than just mom, and actual instruction on Socratic dialogue

11. Emphasis on critical thinking

12.  Allows for students to dig deeper in areas of personal interest

 

I don't want the focus to be just on *content* covered, but also on skills being developed that can then be applied to that content.

 

So far, on my short list, I am considering:

 

WTMA's classes (but I wish their rhetoric classes were tied in with literature rather than stand-alone)

Roman Roads Media's Old Western Culture and the Schole Tutorials (again, essays are assigned but I want true writing instruction and would need to add more history)

CLRC

Kolbe Academy

Great Courses lectures

 

I am heading out the door, but will be coming back and adding to this post as I have time and as I come across other resources.  I'd love to collaborate with others that are in my shoes or that have successfully implemented a similar program in their home!

 

 

[Ethel Mertz]

I need to be thinking about this as well - and doing some planning. Next year will be DS's 9th grade year.

[Vida Winter]

My kids have not taken courses here but I have always been drawn to The Harvey Center which is run by Beth in Mint Hill at this forum. We have never quite been able to make it fit but hoping to soon.

[The Governess]

I'm not an expert, by any means. A just about to finish up 9th grader is my oldest, so this is my first rodeo as far as high school. But a couple of things caught my eye on your post so I thought I would chime in. 

 

 

Thank you!  Figuring out how much time to spend is a great way to start.  She already takes a lot of online classes and is doing some high school work, so we are already working on time management and getting a feel for what kind of a workload is possible.  Here's where we are right now:

 

Latin 1: with Lukeion, including class she spends about 6 hours a week

Chinese 1: asynchronous, high school level 3-4 hours a week

Literature and Composition: 5 hours a week including class, reading, and writing assignments

Writing With Skill: Online class, workload can vary but probably averages 6 hours a week

Science: Online class, high school level, varies from 5-8 hours depending on if a test or lab work is assigned

Math: 5 hours a week

History: 3 hours a week

 

Total: 33-36 hours a week. 

 

It's been a lot, but she's managing well.  Last semester she also had a Socratic Discussion class that added another 3-4 hours a week to her workload.  That *was* too much, and this semester is going better.  Still, with all the dancing she does during the week, she usually has some work to do on the weekend.  We try to keep Sundays work free and I don't have her do any work over the summer so she can have a true break. 

 

So, here is the breakdown of what she is doing currently: 

Foreign Language: 10 hours

Science: 5-8 hours

Math: 5 hours

Humanities: 14 hours

 

Next year's breakdown will be very similar.  I think that planning on 2.5-3 hours per day to spend on humanities is probably a good benchmark.  I know at some point she is going to want to add in electives like computer science and photography.  If she is still dancing as much as she is in a few years, we will probably need to make some adjustments in order to fit some other things in.

[The Governess]

Also, I was looking over Lukeion's website and their mythology and history classes look fantastic.  Not all of them are geared toward 9th graders though, which is probably when we would do the bulk of our ancients study. 

 

Another question I've been musing on: how much time should be devoted to each time period?  I see that a lot of these programs are heavy on the ancient and medieval time periods, and don't give as much weight to the more modern time period.  I'm not sure yet what I think of this.  I'm wondering if it makes more sense to give a full year to the Greeks, 3/4 of a year to the Romans and 3/4 of a year to the medieval period up to the Reformation, and then two full years to the Reformation and beyond.  Or something like that.  Maybe what I first need is to make a list of works I want to be sure we cover in high school, put them in chronological order, and see how that breaks down.  That in itself is going to take a bit of time to research.

[madteaparty]

Also, I was looking over Lukeion's website and their mythology and history classes look fantastic. Not all of them are geared toward 9th graders though, which is probably when we would do the bulk of our ancients study.

 

Another question I've been musing on: how much time should be devoted to each time period? I see that a lot of these programs are heavy on the ancient and medieval time periods, and don't give as much weight to the more modern time period. I'm not sure yet what I think of this. I'm wondering if it makes more sense to give a full year to the Greeks, 3/4 of a year to the Romans and 3/4 of a year to the medieval period up to the Reformation, and then two full years to the Reformation and beyond. Or something like that. Maybe what I first need is to make a list of works I want to be sure we cover in high school, put them in chronological order, and see how that breaks down. That in itself is going to take a bit of time to research.

CLRC organizes this in three parts if I recall (so that would be three years for the complete sequence). Check their website for the specific works covered in each. Edited March 14, 2017 by madteaparty

[The Governess]

Wow, you would not imagine how long it took me to find this old post. I couldn't get it to come up in my search either on this website or through google. I thought for a while I was just imagining that I wrote it!!

 

Anyway, I haven't made much progress in figuring this out. Here are some options I'm seeing:

 

1. WTMA - Ancient Literature, Ancient History, and Rhetoric I (too much writing)?

 

2. Lukeion - Muse series and their ancient history classes.

 

Any idea what the workload would be like for either of these combos?

 

She will have taken 3 years of WWS and 2 years of Lit-based writing.

 

She will also take:

 

Biology

Latin 3

Chinese 3

DE Math

 

Thoughts?

[RootAnn]

Just to add to your list, Wilson Hill also has great books-type courses. Some writing, but no writing instruction built-in.

[Roadrunner]

All I know is CLRC is extremely intense as in hundreds of pages assigned per week to read and significant writing as well. I believe it's about couple of hours per day. 

I have a STEM kid who I really want to put through the Great Books program and the time commitment of some of those online course is giving me the pause. 

[The Governess]

All I know is CLRC is extremely intense as in hundreds of pages assigned per week to read and significant writing as well. I believe it's about couple of hours per day.

I have a STEM kid who I really want to put through the Great Books program and the time commitment of some of those online course is giving me the pause.

I'm in the same spot - tight schedule but I want to do this right! This is one reason I'm thinking of Lukeion - based on this post it sounds like it's about 30-40 pages per week or reading, which sounds doable:

 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/535532-so-lukeion-literature-muse-classes/?fromsearch=1

[Roadrunner]

I'm in the same spot - tight schedule but I want to do this right! This is one reason I'm thinking of Lukeion - based on this post it sounds like it's about 30-40 pages per week or reading, which sounds doable:

 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/535532-so-lukeion-literature-muse-classes/?fromsearch=1

But it's much more narrow in it's coverage.

 

 

I am also wondering if it's possible to award two credits (one for English and one for history) for a course that's very heavy in reading (say CLRC one). That would make it slightly more manageable if history doesn't need to be covered as a separate subject.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Roadrunner

[MamaSprout]

I've thought about this and ended up putting together a rough schedule mashing up Bedford Anthologies, Excellence in Lit (subbing out almost all of the honors books for ones in the anthology) and Great Courses Western Lit Tradition. It's more of a sequence than a do this at this time thing. I want room for bunny trails. I sorta like the looks of Roman Roads, but we want to do Rhetoric Alive, dig into mythology, and do a semester of research writing, so I'd need to cut something out. By the time I start slicing and dicing, I might as well write my own. I've taught with EiL before and find it very adaptable to my teaching style.

[madteaparty]

But it's much more narrow in it's coverage.

 

 

I am also wondering if it's possible to award two credits (one for English and one for history) for a course that's very heavy in reading (say CLRC one). That would make it slightly more manageable if history doesn't need to be covered as a separate subject.

 Considering one is expected to read both Herodotus and Thucydides in CLRC's GB1, I don't know why not.

[Lori D.]

Latin 1: with Lukeion, including class she spends about 6 hours a week

Chinese 1: asynchronous, high school level 3-4 hours a week

Literature and Composition: 5 hours a week including class, reading, and writing assignments

Writing With Skill: Online class, workload can vary but probably averages 6 hours a week

Science: Online class, high school level, varies from 5-8 hours depending on if a test or lab work is assigned

Math: 5 hours a week

History: 3 hours a week

 

Next year's breakdown will be very similar.  I think that planning on 2.5-3 hours per day to spend on humanities is probably a good benchmark.  I know at some point she is going to want to add in electives like computer science and photography.  If she is still dancing as much as she is in a few years, we will probably need to make some adjustments in order to fit some other things in...

 

Sorry that I'm no help on course providers.

 

But... To help in planning high school, you'll want to keep one eye on the overall number and types of credits you'll want to accomplish during high school to be admission-ready for a majority of colleges:

 

4 credits = English 

4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, + a 4th math requiring Alg. 2 as pre-requisite)

3-4 credits = Science, with labs (a few colleges want Biology and Chemistry)

3-4 credits = Social Sciences (most colleges want 1 credit = Amer. History; some also want 1 credit World Hist. or Geog., or 0.5 credit each Econ & Gov't)

2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts

4-8+ credits = Electives (examples: Computer, Health, PE, Bible/Religious Studies, Vocational-Tech, "Academic Electives" (additional credits in the first 5 subjects above beyond the required amounts), additional Fine Arts credits such as Photography, credits in personal interests, etc.)

24-28+ credits = total

 

A VERY rough rule of thumb: 1 hour/day for 4-5 days/week for 36 weeks = 150-180 hours = 1 credit.

 

In terms of high school credits it looks like DD is already THIS year mostly working at high school level, and successfully knocking out a heavy credit load, while simultaneously enjoying a time-intensive extracurricular (dance), that could be counted as a Fine Arts credit:

 

1.0 credit = English: Lit. & Comp

0.5-1 credit = Composition (Writing with Skill) -- 0.5 credit if 1 semester, 1.0 credit if all year

1.0 credit = Math

1.0 credit = Science (online)

0.75 credit = Social Sciences: History

1.0 credit = Foreign Language: Latin 1 (Lukeion)

1.0 credit = Foreign Language: Chinese 1 (asynchronous)

1.0 credit = Fine Arts: Dance

7.25-7.75 credits total

 

If next year will be similar, the only things I'd suggest taking into consideration:

 

- 3 hours/week is a bit too light for a full History credit; reading and discussion can be upped a bit, and if you do home-created courses rather than all outsourcing, you can design some of the writing from the English credit to go specifically towards the History credit

 

- 2 languages per year is a lot, unless that's the area DD is planning to move into college-degree/career-wise; since colleges want the credits to be in the same language, unless DD has a strong love of both Chinese AND Latin, you might let DD pick her favorite and focus on that in the high school years

 

- 1.5-2.0 credits English per year is a bit heavy, unless that's the area DD is planning to move into college degree/career wise; right now, DD is pretty heavy on the Writing aspect of an English credit (both a formal Composition course AND a Lit. & Comp class that requires writing) -- options for next year:

 

* do two 1-semester courses for two 0.5 credits of English -- one semester could be a formal Composition class, and the other a formal Literature class

 

* if, next year, DD no longer needs Composition (formal instruction and practice exercises in writing), then drop doing an outsourced Composition or Writing course, and just go with a Lit. class that includes some writing on the Lit., and use some of the hours on writing for History (esp. if History ends up being a time-heavy course next year) towards the writing portion of the English credit

 

 

I don't think it's a problem to do Integrated History & English (Literature & Writing) credits as you discuss in your original post, but I do see a lot of those Integrated "Great Books" studies veer heavily towards counting History primary source readings and Philosophy or Theology readings as Literature.

 

Otherwise, the course providers do as you mention above, which is offer the same time period of study, but each subject as a separate class that informs and builds into the others; so individual 1.0 credit courses each in:

- History (and lightly touching on the Arts within History context)

- Literature

- and Theology or Philosophy.

 

I personally fall into that second camp, because it much easier for students to discuss "like things" in the same class. In most college and high school classes, the Literature portion of an English credit is primarily fiction, of these types: novels, novellas, short stories, plays, and poetry. That is because the function/purpose of fiction, and how it is analyzed, is so VERY different from the purposes from non-fiction such as a biographies, speeches, essays, and factual/historical texts. There is not the same type of subtly and depth or use of literary elements in non-fiction as there is in fiction -- non-fiction uses rich language, yes, but the meaning is directly communicated, and there are rarely underlying, unspoken themes. Also, when writing about fiction vs. non-fiction, your types of output are very different -- literary analysis vs. research paper or cause & effect analysis.

 

 

Two other things I recommend doing in making a high school plan:

 

1. Think through what your 3-4 major NON-academic goals are for doing with DD before the end of high school -- that might be something like:

- a major trip together as a family

- spend some time focusing on ethnic traditions and family history

- spend some time focusing on religious history and believes

- work on training in managing finances, home maintenance, and basic auto maintenance

- regular volunteering as a family

- involvement with a variety of extracurriculars

- time for student to devote to personal interests

- etc.

 

Your window of opportunity to accomplish your major goals closes FAST when the high school years hit, so you absolutely need to write down those non-school-related important goals and make sure to leave time in the schedule to do those things.

 

2. Write your plan in pencil, hold lightly to it, and prepare to be flexible. Your student will change a lot, and may do a 180Ëš turn in interests. Or unexpected opportunities can pop up as you move through high school. Be careful to not over-schedule so that you can take advantage of those special opportunities, or be able to switch gears and support/encourage a radical change in your student's interests or future plans.

 

 

Just a few random thoughts, FWIW. ;) BEST of luck in planning for high school.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Lori D.

[The Governess]

Just to add to your list, Wilson Hill also has great books-type courses. Some writing, but no writing instruction built-in.

 

Thanks for this.  I'm not a fan of Omnibus, which is why this wasn't on my list, but I have heard good things about Wilson Hill in general.

[The Governess]

But it's much more narrow in it's coverage.

 

 

I am also wondering if it's possible to award two credits (one for English and one for history) for a course that's very heavy in reading (say CLRC one). That would make it slightly more manageable if history doesn't need to be covered as a separate subject.

 

Yes, more narrow.  I guess I am okay with that as long as what is covered is done well. 

[yvonne]

Thanks for this.  I'm not a fan of Omnibus, which is why this wasn't on my list, but I have heard good things about Wilson Hill in general.

 

 

The Omnibus text itself is only optional, not required, for the WHA Great Books/Conversations courses.

[The Governess]

Sorry that I'm no help on course providers.

 

But... To help in planning high school, you'll want to keep one eye on the overall number and types of credits you'll want to accomplish during high school to be admission-ready for a majority of colleges:

 

4 credits = English 

4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2, + a 4th math requiring Alg. 2 as pre-requisite)

3-4 credits = Science, with labs (a few colleges want Biology and Chemistry)

3-4 credits = Social Sciences (most colleges want 1 credit = Amer. History; some also want 1 credit World Hist. or Geog., or 0.5 credit each Econ & Gov't)

2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts

4-8+ credits = Electives (examples: Computer, Health, PE, Bible/Religious Studies, Vocational-Tech, "Academic Electives" (additional credits in the first 5 subjects above beyond the required amounts), additional Fine Arts credits such as Photography, credits in personal interests, etc.)

24-28+ credits = total

 

A VERY rough rule of thumb: 1 hour/day for 4-5 days/week for 36 weeks = 150-180 hours = 1 credit.

 

In terms of high school credits it looks like DD is already THIS year mostly working at high school level, and successfully knocking out a heavy credit load, while simultaneously enjoying a time-intensive extracurricular (dance), that could be counted as a Fine Arts credit:

 

1.0 credit = English: Lit. & Comp

0.5-1 credit = Composition (Writing with Skill) -- 0.5 credit if 1 semester, 1.0 credit if all year

1.0 credit = Math

1.0 credit = Science (online)

0.75 credit = Social Sciences: History

1.0 credit = Foreign Language: Latin 1 (Lukeion)

1.0 credit = Foreign Language: Chinese 1 (asynchronous)

1.0 credit = Fine Arts: Dance

7.25-7.75 credits total

 

Yes, she has been doing some high school work in middle school.  The above is what she did in 7th grade.  This year in 8th she is doing:

 

1.0 credit = English: Lit & Comp (maybe high school level)

1.0 credit = Composition - Writing With Skill

1.0 credit = Math

1.0 credit = Lab Science

1.0 credit = US History (middle school level)

1.0 credit = Foreign Language: Latin 2

1.0 credit = Foreign Language: Chinese 2

 

So, 7 credits, at least 5 of which I would consider to be high school level.

 

If next year will be similar, the only things I'd suggest taking into consideration:

 

- 3 hours/week is a bit too light for a full History credit; reading and discussion can be upped a bit, and if you do home-created courses rather than all outsourcing, you can design some of the writing from the English credit to go specifically towards the History credit

 

Yes, I'm assuming that by 9th grade she will be spending a full 5 hours a week on history.

 

- 2 languages per year is a lot, unless that's the area DD is planning to move into college-degree/career-wise; since colleges want the credits to be in the same language, unless DD has a strong love of both Chinese AND Latin, you might let DD pick her favorite and focus on that in the high school years

 

She really excels in this area, so I am hesitant to drop one of these languages.  She's not sure what direction she wants to go so I am trying to keep her moving forward in those areas she might end up wanting to pursue, while at the same time covering our family's homeschool goals (Great Books study, etc.). Besides languages, she is really good at math, so I'm trying to keep her moving ahead in math and science as well, in case she decides she wants to study in a STEM field.

 

- 1.5-2.0 credits English per year is a bit heavy, unless that's the area DD is planning to move into college degree/career wise; right now, DD is pretty heavy on the Writing aspect of an English credit (both a formal Composition course AND a Lit. & Comp class that requires writing) -- options for next year:

 

* do two 1-semester courses for two 0.5 credits of English -- one semester could be a formal Composition class, and the other a formal Literature class

 

* if, next year, DD no longer needs Composition (formal instruction and practice exercises in writing), then drop doing an outsourced Composition or Writing course, and just go with a Lit. class that includes some writing on the Lit., and use some of the hours on writing for History (esp. if History ends up being a time-heavy course next year) towards the writing portion of the English credit

 

After this year, I don't think dd will need a separate composition course every year.  She is a good writer and has very good sentence structure and organization.  I do think she would benefit from a composition course dedicated to thesis-based writing (WWS is great, but it's only expository).  I'm wondering if I should try to knock out a rhetoric writing course in 9th grade, so she can utilize those skills for the rest of high school, and call it done. 

 

I don't think it's a problem to do Integrated History & English (Literature & Writing) credits as you discuss in your original post, but I do see a lot of those Integrated "Great Books" studies veer heavily towards counting History primary source readings and Philosophy or Theology readings as Literature.

 

Yes, I see this too.  If we went with a typical "Great Books" course, I would likely want to add a history spine, like SWB's history texts.  But then of course that only adds to the amount of reading that needs to happen each week!

 

Otherwise, the course providers do as you mention above, which is offer the same time period of study, but each subject as a separate class that informs and builds into the others; so individual 1.0 credit courses each in:

- History (and lightly touching on the Arts within History context)

- Literature

- and Theology or Philosophy.

 

I personally fall into that second camp, because it much easier for students to discuss "like things" in the same class. In most college and high school classes, the Literature portion of an English credit is primarily fiction, of these types: novels, novellas, short stories, plays, and poetry. That is because the function/purpose of fiction, and how it is analyzed, is so VERY different from the purposes from non-fiction such as a biographies, speeches, essays, and factual/historical texts. There is not the same type of subtly and depth or use of literary elements in non-fiction as there is in fiction -- non-fiction uses rich language, yes, but the meaning is directly communicated, and there are rarely underlying, unspoken themes. Also, when writing about fiction vs. non-fiction, your types of output are very different -- literary analysis vs. research paper or cause & effect analysis.

 

This is a good point.

 

Two other things I recommend doing in making a high school plan:

 

1. Think through what your 3-4 major NON-academic goals are for doing with DD before the end of high school -- that might be something like:

- a major trip together as a family

- spend some time focusing on ethnic traditions and family history

- spend some time focusing on religious history and believes

- work on training in managing finances, home maintenance, and basic auto maintenance

- regular volunteering as a family

- involvement with a variety of extracurriculars

- time for student to devote to personal interests

- etc.

 

Great advice.  We have already taken several major trips together as a family, and I am sure we will find time to do a couple more during the high school years.  We also already do some of the other things on your list.  Her biggest interest right now is dance and nearly all of her free time is devoted to that.  I know she would like to start tutoring and babysitting in the near future.  She's also shown interest in starting up a coding club for girls with dh.  We are contemplating having her accrue hours for the Congressional Gold Award (she volunteers with dance related activities already). 

 

Your window of opportunity to accomplish your major goals closes FAST when the high school years hit, so you absolutely need to write down those non-school-related important goals and make sure to leave time in the schedule to do those things.

 

2. Write your plan in pencil, hold lightly to it, and prepare to be flexible. Your student will change a lot, and may do a 180Ëš turn in interests. Or unexpected opportunities can pop up as you move through high school. Be careful to not over-schedule so that you can take advantage of those special opportunities, or be able to switch gears and support/encourage a radical change in your student's interests or future plans.

 

Agreed!  I want to have a "master plan" but am very happy to update it based on her passions, as she figures them out!

 

Here is what I am writing down in "pencil" for now:

 

9th grade:

-Ancient Literature

-Ancient History

-Composition (Rhetoric)

-Chinese 3

-Latin 3

-Pre-Calculus

-Biology with SAT 2

 

10th grade:

-Medieval Literature

-Medieval History

-Chinese 4 or AP Chinese

-AP Latin

-AP Calculus

-AP Chemistry

-Computer Science

 

11th grade:

-US Literature

-US History (AP?)

-US Government (half credit) - (AP?)

-Continued Chinese studies (half credit)

-AP Physics

-DE Math

-Fine Art

-Elective of Choice

 

12th grade:

-Modern World Literature (or AP Literature)

-Modern World History

-Economics (half credit)

-Continued Chinese studies (half credit)

-DE Science

-DE Math

-Philosophy

-Elective of Choice

 

Have I left anything important out?  I'm not 100% set on which courses should be AP or DE, etc.  There may end up being more or less than what I have here.  Her elective of choice may end up being a DE foreign language - she has already mentioned she would like to try French - or more computer science.  She's also interested in photography.  Or she may want to do something else entirely!

 

Should I leave her dance activities as an extracurricular since she likely won't need it to count for anything on her transcript?  She spends about 20 hours a week at the studio, and the last two summers she has attended lengthy dance intensives, and this schedule will continue in high school as well if she sticks with ballet.  She may well end up applying to colleges that offer dance majors, and double majoring in dance and something else. 

 

Just a few random thoughts, FWIW. ;) BEST of luck in planning for high school.

 

Thanks so much Lori!  Your posts are always so helpful.  I feel like we are starting high school in a good place.  Of course, she may decide she wants to graduate early so she can study ballet full time, and throw my plans completely out of whack, but I have to have some sort of plan as I start this high school journey! ;)

 

[Lori D.]

...She really excels in this area, so I am hesitant to drop one of these languages.  She's not sure what direction she wants to go so I am trying to keep her moving forward in those areas she might end up wanting to pursue, while at the same time covering our family's homeschool goals (Great Books study, etc.). Besides languages, she is really good at math, so I'm trying to keep her moving ahead in math and science as well, in case she decides she wants to study in a STEM field....

 

...After this year, I don't think dd will need a separate composition course every year.  She is a good writer and has very good sentence structure and organization.  I do think she would benefit from a composition course dedicated to thesis-based writing (WWS is great, but it's only expository).  I'm wondering if I should try to knock out a rhetoric writing course in 9th grade, so she can utilize those skills for the rest of high school, and call it done...

 

...Yes, I see this too.  If we went with a typical "Great Books" course, I would likely want to add a history spine, like SWB's history texts.  But then of course that only adds to the amount of reading that needs to happen each week!...

 

...Agreed!  I want to have a "master plan" but am very happy to update it based on her passions, as she figures them out! Here is what I am writing down in "pencil" for now:

 

9th grade:

-Ancient Literature

-Ancient History

-Composition (Rhetoric)

-Chinese 3

-Latin 3

-Pre-Calculus

-Biology with SAT 2

 

10th grade:

-Medieval Literature

-Medieval History

-Chinese 4 or AP Chinese

-AP Latin

-AP Calculus

-AP Chemistry

-Computer Science

 

11th grade:

-US Literature

-US History (AP?)

-US Government (half credit) - (AP?)

-Continued Chinese studies (half credit)

-AP Physics

-DE Math

-Fine Art

-Elective of Choice

 

12th grade:

-Modern World Literature (or AP Literature)

-Modern World History

-Economics (half credit)

-Continued Chinese studies (half credit)

-DE Science

-DE Math

-Philosophy

-Elective of Choice

 

Have I left anything important out?  I'm not 100% set on which courses should be AP or DE, etc.  There may end up being more or less than what I have here.  Her elective of choice may end up being a DE foreign language - she has already mentioned she would like to try French - or more computer science.  She's also interested in photography.  Or she may want to do something else entirely!

 

Should I leave her dance activities as an extracurricular since she likely won't need it to count for anything on her transcript?  She spends about 20 hours a week at the studio, and the last two summers she has attended lengthy dance intensives, and this schedule will continue in high school as well if she sticks with ballet.  She may well end up applying to colleges that offer dance majors, and double majoring in dance and something else. 

 

...Of course, she may decide she wants to graduate early so she can study ballet full time, and throw my plans completely out of whack, but I have to have some sort of plan as I start this high school journey!  ;)

 

Sounds like you have things well in-hand! My only thought is that you may find that in order to accommodate 2 foreign languages AND STEM, you may need to drop from a Great Books History studies to more get 'er done types of credits. Or, don't worry about trying to do a 4-year classical rotation  and just go with the 2-3 Social Studies credits that will be needed to fulfill college admissions.

 

Is your DD a big history buff? Or is that you wanting to do the Great Books, and it is your goal to do classical in high school? Because if DD likes History, but is not passionate about it, thenthat might be where you can be more flexible. Keep in mind: if your DD IS much more passionate about STEM subjects, ballet, and 2 foreign languages -- then something has to give, and you don't want it to be DD. ;)

 

It looks like a pretty packed and rigorous schedule, but if your student thrives with so much, then don't let me stop you. ;) Next year you might keep an eye on what seems to be her biggest passions, and then If you find she is starting to get stressed with too much, discuss with her about what are her top TWO passion subjects to absolutely keep, and then see in 10th, 11th, and 12th grades where you can either reduce or drop out the least passionate subject(s). Esp. if she ends up having time-consuming extracurriculars (ballet, coding)

 

re: ballet as credit or extracurricular

I'd just keep track of everything and once you hit about 11th grade, it will probably be more clear to both you and DD whether she IS going to aggressively continue with dance into college (so then yes, count as some hours/lessons towards credits and the extra as extracurriculars) -- or, if it just is becoming an enjoyable hobby, then count towards 1 Fine Arts credit and the rest as extracurriculars. I don't think you need to make a decision on that for a few years yet. :)

 

BEST of luck in your high school adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Lori D.

[chiguirre]

For a more git 'er done Great Books course, I'd check out Memoria Press. Their online Classical Studies classes combine history with epics. Over four years they do a good job of covering the most important Greek and Roman works without an overwhelming work load.

[The Governess]

Sounds like you have things well in-hand! My only thought is that you may find that in order to accommodate 2 foreign languages AND STEM, you may need to drop from a Great Books History studies to more get 'er done types of credits. Or, don't worry about trying to do a 4-year classical rotation  and just go with the 2-3 Social Studies credits that will be needed to fulfill college admissions.

 

Is your DD a big history buff? Or is that you wanting to do the Great Books, and it is your goal to do classical in high school? Because if DD likes History, but is not passionate about it, thenthat might be where you can be more flexible. Keep in mind: if your DD IS much more passionate about STEM subjects, ballet, and 2 foreign languages -- then something has to give, and you don't want it to be DD. ;)

 

It looks like a pretty packed and rigorous schedule, but if your student thrives with so much, then don't let me stop you. ;) Next year you might keep an eye on what seems to be her biggest passions, and then If you find she is starting to get stressed with too much, discuss with her about what are her top TWO passion subjects to absolutely keep, and then see in 10th, 11th, and 12th grades where you can either reduce or drop out the least passionate subject(s). Esp. if she ends up having time-consuming extracurriculars (ballet, coding)

 

re: ballet as credit or extracurricular

I'd just keep track of everything and once you hit about 11th grade, it will probably be more clear to both you and DD whether she IS going to aggressively continue with dance into college (so then yes, count as some hours/lessons towards credits and the extra as extracurriculars) -- or, if it just is becoming an enjoyable hobby, then count towards 1 Fine Arts credit and the rest as extracurriculars. I don't think you need to make a decision on that for a few years yet. :)

 

BEST of luck in your high school adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Yes, the Great Books is my goal for high school.  It's one thing I really want to send my girls off into the world with.  Sigh.   I'm not sure how it's going to work either.  I think I'm just going to have to try it for 9th and see how it goes from there.

 

Thanks for all of the advice!  I will be revisiting this thread during those inevitable panic moments that I know will be coming.  ;)

 

[The Governess]

For a more git 'er done Great Books course, I'd check out Memoria Press. Their online Classical Studies classes combine history with epics. Over four years they do a good job of covering the most important Greek and Roman works without an overwhelming work load.

 

Thanks for this recommendation.  They really do spread things out!  I don't think she's going to want to spend four years on ancients though.  Otherwise this would be a good option. 

[The Governess]

One of my reservations with CLRC is that they spend two years on ancients, a year on medieval, and then there is only one year left to cover everything else.  I want a program that isn't going to shortchange modern history and literature. 

 

I really like Lukeion's classes for a year of ancients, and WTMA's medieval/renaissance literature list looks great (although the history class to go along with it only covers medieval history, so I don't like that they don't line up perfectly).  After that, I'm not sure....

[Roadrunner]

And if you plan on squeezing in AP English Language, it's even less time.

[chiguirre]

One of my reservations with CLRC is that they spend two years on ancients, a year on medieval, and then there is only one year left to cover everything else.  I want a program that isn't going to shortchange modern history and literature. 

 

I really like Lukeion's classes for a year of ancients, and WTMA's medieval/renaissance literature list looks great (although the history class to go along with it only covers medieval history, so I don't like that they don't line up perfectly).  After that, I'm not sure....

 

Take a look at MP's Short Story and Short Novel classes. Trinqueta is doing Short Story this year and I hope to enroll her in Short Novel next year. In 11th grade all students take their signature Dante course. 12th is AP Lit or Shakespeare/Austen or dual enrollment or a writing class instead of lit. They cover a modern classic short story each week and slowly work up to doing a fairly complete literary analysis. First, they just talk about the stories for a couple of weeks, then they add in writing a personal reflection, then they add in a discussion board, then a plot analysis, then finally they write essays. It's a good learning experience for 9th grade (or 8th with a strong writer).

 

Trinqueta is doing this alongside a composition class that uses MP's Classical Composition series. The work load is about 5 or 6 hours for each class each week including meeting time. That feels light compared with some great books classes but MP's diploma program requires 2 credits of logic, 2 comp, 3 lit, 4 Classical studies/modern history, 4 Latin, 4 math, 3 science and government so you just can't spend all day on one class. OTOH, you do get broad exposure to literature when you combine the Short Story class with the Classical Studies classes.

[MamaSprout]

Take a look at MP's Short Story and Short Novel classes. Trinqueta is doing Short Story this year and I hope to enroll her in Short Novel next year. In 11th grade all students take their signature Dante course. 12th is AP Lit or Shakespeare/Austen or dual enrollment or a writing class instead of lit. They cover a modern classic short story each week and slowly work up to doing a fairly complete literary analysis. First, they just talk about the stories for a couple of weeks, then they add in writing a personal reflection, then they add in a discussion board, then a plot analysis, then finally they write essays. It's a good learning experience for 9th grade (or 8th with a strong writer).

 

Trinqueta is doing this alongside a composition class that uses MP's Classical Composition series. The work load is about 5 or 6 hours for each class each week including meeting time. That feels light compared with some great books classes but MP's diploma program requires 2 credits of logic, 2 comp, 3 lit, 4 Classical studies/modern history, 4 Latin, 4 math, 3 science and government so you just can't spend all day on one class. OTOH, you do get broad exposure to literature when you combine the Short Story class with the Classical Studies classes.

 

I struggle with MP's line up myself. We were heavy users of their products for a while, but the addition of the Butler version of Odyssey for 7th grade just didn't work for us, and since we dropped the Lit/Classical/ Comp subjects we've switched away from MP almost entirely.

 

I think they've done a better job with the online classes than the cores, though.

[The Governess]

And if you plan on squeezing in AP English Language, it's even less time.

 

I know.  My dd is a good writer and would probably do well with this.  But where do I squeeze it in? 

[Roadrunner]

I know. My dd is a good writer and would probably do well with this. But where do I squeeze it in?

I have been thinking of this myself. My kid won't be ready for GB in 8th grade, so starting early is out of question. I think I might take the selection of GB2 and 3 content on CLRC and do it over 1 year by eliminating what interests us a little less. Then AP language and then back to BB4.

[Lori D.]

And if you plan on squeezing in AP English Language, it's even less time.

 

I know.  My dd is a good writer and would probably do well with this.  But where do I squeeze it in? 

 

Remind me: why do you *need* AP English Language???

[Roadrunner]

Remind me: why do you *need* AP English Language???

You don't "need" it, but it's a good course and prepares well for college writing, and those of us with kids aspiring to selective schools, it's almost an expectation for admissions.

[yvonne]

You don't "need" it, but it's a good course and prepares well for college writing, and those of us with kids aspiring to selective schools, it's almost an expectation for admissions.

 

If you're already doing solid, rigorous English courses with writing, you might be able to do the English courses  you really want to do and still take the AP Language exam w/out having to take a specific," AP Eng Lang" course.

 

At least three of the high end private schools in our area do not offer AP Eng Lang courses. However, they encourage their students to take the AP Lang exam in 11th because by then, with the Eng courses the students have already taken in 9th-11th, they're also prepared enough to do well on the AP Eng Lang exam.

 

(These schools do, however, offer specific "AP Eng LIT" courses.

 

Just a thought.