Help - disability in written expression???

[sue carter]

Hi,

 

I'm so frustrated and would love some help. My 10 year old son has dysgraphia and is mildly gifted. His neuropsych eval also diagnosed him with a specific learning disability in written expression. This has never felt right to me. He's not the best writter, but always scores at great level on the common core, etc. which are typed tests.

 

Come to find out that he had to handwrite the test used to diagnosis him with a ld. They did not and will not allow him to type. And according to the doctor, there is no written expression test that allows students to type. Is this actually true???

 

Of course he bombed the written expression test. He has dysgraphia. We're at the point he won't even try to write. With a lot of adult forcing he may get a sentence out.

 

I'm so frustrated! Why they won't allow him to type is beyond me....

 

Anyone have experience with this? Is there a test that psychologists use to diagnose ld in written expression that allows kids to type?

 

Thx!!!

Sue

[Rosie_0801]

They won't allow him to type because he must work under the same conditions as everyone else who takes the test or no comparison can be made. You would think that they'd test twice, once with pen and paper and then allowing typing, but perhaps they haven't thought of it yet.

 

Bravewriter has some ideas for helping kids with written expression.

[PeterPan]

Sue, I don't understand how you're splitting this.  SLD Writing (written expression) is an umbrella term and includes what was formerly called dysgraphia.  SLD Reading is an umbrella term and includes what was previously called dyslexia.  You're saying the same thing as the school.  It's an SLD.  You don't like that it's called an SLD? Lots of brilliant people have SLDs.  My ds is gifted and has all three.  

 

Adding: The typing is a known accommodation for the SLD.  You're not really saying anything different from the school.  You're saying he needs the accommodation and they're acknowledging it.

Edited October 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Heathermomster]

I guess I don't understand your problem.

 

The accommodations for handwriting are typing and speech to text sw. The best thing that I ever did was give up handwriting practice and teach DS to type. Dysgraphia is a processing disorder that may affect legibility, speed, and sequencing of thought. The fact that he does so well typing confirms the SLD.

 

Welcome to the 2e club. ;)

Edited October 26, 2016 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

Welcome to the 2e club. ;)

 

:thumbup1:

 

I must be in a really rah-rah mood this morning, but I'm just reminded how much I'm surrounded, we're surrounded, here on the boards with people who say it's OK to have disabilities, OK to be exceptional in lots of ways, and that this can have a good outcome.  Over in another thread we're talking Disney and behaviors and accommodations for disabilities.  It's not our fault and it's not their fault, and it doesn't mean someone is defective or not whole or not going to have a good outcome.  

 

I guess you could say it's part of my Most Holy Faith, not only a belief in God, but a belief that this is ok, that it's going to work out well and for good.  

 

But remind me of that in an hour when he's up and we're trying to do math.   :nopity:   :smilielol5:  :smash:

[MysteryJen]

The test is just a test. It is okay that he can't write with a pencil. He can type or talk. But since most people can write with a pencil, that is the way the test is structured. I think that since dysgraphia looks different with so many different people, it can be hard to wrap your head around it. My ds2 has SLD in written expression. His handwriting is terrible, he struggles to express himself on paper, and writing a paper is like climbing a mountain. He can type reasonably well and use text to speech sw, but it is the Entire Process of writing that is a struggle. Some kids can't physically write, but give them a keyboard and they can do it fine. Or test to speech can produce good papers. But in an evaluation, you want to see where the struggles from average are.

 

I am not sure what you are asking. He can't get accomodations for an evaluation. Those come after the eval for school.

[geodob]

Sue, these tests were developed before the invention of the type-writer. 

But they have updated them, as they no longer require writing with a 'feather-pen and a bottle of ink'?

 

You highlight how absurd it is, to use these outdated tests, from the last century.

If you asked the psychologist, when they last wrote a whole sentence, using handwriting?

Very likely, it wont be since high school?

 

Given that the aim of schooling, is to prepare children, for life as an adult?

Expecting children to hand write, is a pointless activity.

 

Though it took many years, before these tests were changed, to suit people who were born Blind?

Who up until then, had to do the tests using hand writing.

 

Written expression scores, are added to other scores, to arrive at a person's IQ.

Which for many years, wrongly defined all Blind people, as having a low IQ.

Equally, people born Deaf, had low scores on the Verbal Expression tests.

 

These outdated tests, are really defining Disabilities from last century.

Where our Digital Age, will continue to redefine what are currently termed Disabilities.

[MysteryJen]

geodob, I am not sure I completely agree with you. Lots of people write by hand, even quick notes. For all of my family, except for ds2 (even dd2 with a sld in reading) we use handwriting frequently. Notes left with dinner instruction, grocery lists, calendars, etc. Even dd2's high school with all its technology has huge amounts of handwriting on a daily basis, assignments, notebooks, writing assignments, etc. Needing accomodations in this area needs to be clearly determined and has nothing to do with IQ. I think it is a problem that SLD in writing expression is an umbrella. Difficulty in handwriting is not the same as difficulty with the process of writing though both are frequently found together. Difficulty in handwriting is easily remedied, but it is a problem in school. Whether or not we are moving to a more digital age, schools will be slow with allowing everyone to type where for many, many kids it is just as easy for them to use a pencil and paper. 

I don't know that all the tests are outdated, but I do know that the evals used for ds2 and dd2 were spot on with their difficulties and their strengths.

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, we're looking at school options for DD, and so far, all of them have had the kids type written parts of placement tests for everything but math. Most either have assigned device programs, BYOD, or have computers in the classrooms and kids take their work on a pen drive after classes that require lots of writing. So yes, the LD includes difficulty in written expression when writing with pencil, but honestly, it looks like schools are moving towards universal accommodations there. I really think about 3/4 of my 504 plan would be a non-issue in the high schools we've been visiting.

[MysteryJen]

FWIW, we're looking at school options for DD, and so far, all of them have had the kids type written parts of placement tests for everything but math. Most either have assigned device programs, BYOD, or have computers in the classrooms and kids take their work on a pen drive after classes that require lots of writing. So yes, the LD includes difficulty in written expression when writing with pencil, but honestly, it looks like schools are moving towards universal accommodations there. I really think about 3/4 of my 504 plan would be a non-issue in the high schools we've been visiting.

This must vary by region, probably even within districts. Even with schools that require computers in every class, many things are still done by hand. Every high school we looked at had lots of hand writing. Writing out math problems is a huge issue for both my kiddos and one that is very rarely accomodated well.

Also, writing by hand during in class assignments seems to be one way that schools are trying to control cheating and plagarism.

[Storygirl]

OP, I'm sure I'm just reiterating what others have said, but the official diagnosis label for dysgraphia now is Specific Learning Disability in Written Expression. It's just another name for the dysgraphia. The testing didn't allow for him to type things, but he should have typing as an accommodation if he ever has an IEP. So that accommodation acknowledges that he can express himself in typing in a way that he cannot when handwriting. It is a typical accommodation for dysgraphia/ written expression.

 

My kids with that SLD do get other help in their IEPs as well. They have writing goals that are meant to teach them to use graphic organizers to help plan their writing, for example, and they have intervention for other composing and writing skills.

[sue carter]

Thanks for everyone's comments! I wasn't very clear in my issue. Sorry!

 

The doctor gave my son (5th grade, almost 11) two diagnoses in this area:

1) Dysgraphia - Absolutly, a hundred million percent agree. The kid can not write. He types all school work. He needs OT and he needs accomodations galore. His dysgraphia is severe.

2) Specific LD in Written Expression - This was given for the CONTENT of his writing with a recommendation for 5 day a week pull out services to explicitly teach all areas of writing. Idea generation, organization, sentence structure, idea mapping etc.

 

It sounds like dysgraphia is also called sld in written expression, so sld in written expression it is ;) My problem is the doctor says there's an issue with the content of his writing but the doctor has only seen handwritten output. My son will not handwrite. With an enormous amount of time, effort and an otherworldly patience his OT can get maybe two sentences. So .... How on earth can the doctor evaluate the CONTENT of a his writing when the kid refuses to handwrite and the doctor refuses to let him type?

 

He has passed every standardized school writing test (they all allow typing). Most recently the spring common core, which requires quite a bit of written (typed) output. And my gut tells me he's OK when it comes to content. However, I'm also afraid that he does have a problem and I'm just refusing to see it.

 

I really just want to have the content of his typewritten work assessed so I know if he needs these services in this area or not. But the doctor is saying there's no test to evaluate the content of the typewritten product of a kid with dysgraphia :(

Edited October 27, 2016 by sue carter

[Storygirl]

Is he homeschooled or enrolled in school? If he is enrolled in school, the intervention specialists and his language arts teacher should be able to evaluate his writing abilities and write goals for his IEP that are appropriate for him. If he is homeschooled, you know what his abilities are and can provide instruction that is appropriate for him.

 

The doctor's diagnosis is useful, but the school -- or you -- has to look at his abilities and set goals for him. Are you going through the IEP process?

[sue carter]

Is he homeschooled or enrolled in school? If he is enrolled in school, the intervention specialists and his language arts teacher should be able to evaluate his writing abilities and write goals for his IEP that are appropriate for him. If he is homeschooled, you know what his abilities are and can provide instruction that is appropriate for him.

 

The doctor's diagnosis is useful, but the school -- or you -- has to look at his abilities and set goals for him. Are you going through the IEP process?

[sue carter]

Thanks Story Girl. He is in a public school program where he goes to school 1.5 days a week and is homeschooled for the remainder. It's a partnership program between the school and parents. We are going through the IEP process right now. We had a full neuropsych by a private doctor. The school is reviewing that and then doing their own testing. My concern arose because the school psychologist is also saying that he needs to handwrite the written expression assessment :( He has ADHD too and getting him to do schoolwork can be a real challenge! I was just now working with him on writing a narrative paper and he was really driving me nuts ;) But, my gut is that his biggest problems are with ADHD stuff like inconsistency, no task initiation, just not wanting to do non-preferred activities and not taking criticism well. When he's in the mood and the stars align he can really produce some nice writing (typing).

Edited October 27, 2016 by sue carter

[Storygirl]

The school psych will run testing, but the teachers will also weigh in on his Present Level of Performance (part of the IEP write up). The whole team, which includes the classroom teacher, the intervention teacher, the school psych, the special education department representative, and you (and maybe others that are needed at the meeting) will write the IEP goals. The special ed coordinator may write a draft IEP with set goals, but the team will discuss them and revise as needed. The team will look at the test results but ALSO the teacher input when making the goals.

 

Don't worry too much about how he performs on the testing. Bring writing samples with you that show what he can do, but also write up your own report about the kind of supports that you have to provide at home for him to be able to produce that kind of writing.

 

Honestly, from what you describe, it sounds like he could use a good amount of scaffolding with his writing. He can have a learning disability and ALSO be a good writer with the proper supports. The IEP process should help figure out the supports he needs. You are an equal member of the IEP team, and you can say whatever you think needs to be said at the meeting, and you can bring examples. The team should consider all of that.

 

It sounds like you are worried that they will think he is a worse writer than he is. Okay. What if that happens? Then they will set goals that will be too easy for him, and he will meet them quickly, and then they will have to update his goals to harder ones. It wouldn't be terrible. It would just be a process of figuring out what he needs.

 

It's normal to second guess things and be nervous. :grouphug:  But I don't see any real red flags to be worried about in what you have written. The psychs run the tests that they have. You and the teachers will provide the input about how he does in real life and in the classroom. The IEP process will sort it all out into goals. I think it will be okay. A good IEP team will take all the information into consideration, not just the psych testing.

 

 

[PeterPan]

There are tests he's going to want to do in the next couple years (AP exams, ACT, etc.) that have hand written components.  What they're doing now is actually REALLY VALUABLE for helping you get accommodations on those later, and it would be crazy (and ineffective) to try to somehow remediate that out in the next week.  Let them see how it really is.  

 

It seems like you're taking the labels really personally.  When it comes to the school IEP process, more is better.  Don't hide things and let it squeak by.  You WANT him to get the services and supports they can offer.  Let it all hang out.  

 

And yes, kids shatter stereotypes all the times!  There are kids with SLD writing who are excellent writers, kids with SLD math who ace the SAT, etc. etc.  

[Heathermomster]

Try to trust these people and work through the process. I am actually happy for you and your son because he is getting the proper attention that he needs. Public schools don't provide services or IEP unless they are absolutely neccessary.

 

Has your boy seen an OT yet? If not, I suggest you take him for a one hour OT eval that looks at his developmental motor, vestibular, visual perception, core/pincer strength, motor planning, and static/dynamic balance. 50% of kids with ADHD have motor issues.

 

I wanted to mention this too. Handwriting disabilities are broken down into 2 seperate SLDs: SLD of written expression and Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD). What did his IQ Processing speed numbers look like? I am speculating here, but maybe the np diagnosed SLD written expression without seeing actual typed output because certain processing speed sub-test numbers were low.

[geodob]

Perhaps I might mention the situation in Australia?  Where starting next year, schools will begin the transition to students doing typed tests, rather than hand-written.

Schools have 3 years to make a full transition, to the situation where no tests will be hand-written.

But their will be an accommodation, where after a medical diagnosis. A student will be allowed to hand-write.

 

So that along with this, hand-writing will be phased out of use, in the classroom.

 

Though I just had a look at the company that produces all of the 'diagnostic tests' for LD's?   (Pearsonclinical.)

As they wont be able to use tests, that involve hand-writing. If it isn't taught?

What I found, is that they have revised their tests, so that they are all done on an i-Pad.

Using a digital platform, called: Q-Interactive.   Here's a link to a page that explains it:

http://www.helloq.com.au/how-it-works

 

So that within 3 years, their will be no such thing as Dysgraphia and a disorder with hand-writing.

Also already, children can do these 'diagnostic evaluations' on an iPad, with no hand-writing.

 

Sue, this would create a major problem for you and your son, if you were in Australia?

As he wouldn't have to use hand-writing for school work.

Also when he did a neuropsych evaluation?  It would be done on an iPad, with no hand-writing involved.

 

So that your son would never know that he would have a 'specific learning disability in written expression'?

If he had to do all of his schoolwork and evaluations, using hand-writing?

He might think that your joking, if you told him that a few years ago? He would have been diagnosed as having a Disability.

[Heathermomster]

And I live in an area of the US that contains possibly the highest number of non-academic Ph.D.s in a country of over 318 million people. One of the best grammar schools in the area happily passes off reading instruction to a 9 yo boy's aunt rather than train their own staff, who are certified school teachers, to teach him to read.

 

An American mom living overseas approached the boards over the summer and mentioned how her son's dysgraphia is so severe that he is unable to fill out a customs form when he flies internationally. A young adult male is compelled to approach perfect strangers and ask for their assistance to sign his name. Quite frankly, these kids need the label so that can justify very real motor and processing difficulties when the need arises. I actually believe the labels of lazy or dumb are far more damaging than the SLD with accommodations.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Pen]

What will he be missing for a pull-out for work on writing content?

 

If it is something significant, then I'd be inclined to show samples of his typed writing to powers that be and see if that part of his services can be dropped.

 

But also, look yourself at his ability to do content writing when typed. Does it come easily to him or is it a struggle?

 

eta: "When he's in the mood and the stars align he can really produce some nice writing (typing)." This comment may reflect trouble with other things than writing per se, but it also may be that consistent work on writing with someone other than you could help whatever the problem is so that he can do better even if he is not in the mood and the stars are not aligning. 

 

If it is not something that is significant that he'd be missing for extra help on writing, I'd suggest letting him have the extra help and practice.

 

My ds also has dysgraphia/SLD written expression. He is also 2E and has had things he's written published.  But even with typed writing, he is slow on composing what he writes, and could have used more techniques for dealing with writing, so I think some extra help like that would have been valuable. 

 

Of course it may be that in a few years all writing will be done on computers, but then again, sometimes the power goes out. I'd like my ds to be able to use pencil and paper if necessary, just as I'd like him to be able to read from ink on paper if necessary. If impossible, well then it is lucky that we live in a time where there are other options. In our case, I totally gave up on cursive, but did get my ds to be able to print manuscript letters. He is much better at typing, but can write more than 2 sentences with pencil on paper if absolutely need be.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Pen

[MysteryJen]

For us, the handwriting was the first sign of the larger issues contained within the SLD of Written Expression. Turns out, ds2 has problems with nearly every aspect of writing. Coming from parents and grandparents who write for work and with much ease, this continues to be hard to process. It really doesn't matter if every form or test in the world can be typed, the act of putting words together in sentences, paragraphs is so very very hard. According to our pscyh who did the testing, most people come to him with a known problem of bad handwriting and leave grappling with bigger issues. Ds2 was not terribly far behind the curve at 9, but he fell off very quickly after 12.

 

Sheer hard work and nearly every writing program under the sun has helped ds2 do barely adequate high school work. But it is frustrating to both of us, because it is not representative of his thought or knowledge. Even with text to speech, his writing is "dis-ordered" and very basic. My other kids were only slightly better than he was at 9 but seven years laters, their writing grew remarkably in every aspect, including ease. His has maybe matured 2-3 years and he worked harder than all of them.

I guess I am trying to say, for some kids, typing may solve the main problem. Just like OT can solve the problem. For others, OT does nothing, typing is necessary, but not a solution. You may not really know yet what sort of problems you are really looking at with this SLD.