Questioning OG method with 12 yo dd

[faithmama]

I'm curious if anyone else has been in this situation.  I have a 12 yo dd that is going on her 3rd year of homeschooling.  She was in special education (non mainstreamed) when she was in PS (pre K-3rd). 

 

She has global challenges....everything is hard for her.  She is technically in 6th grade but works grades behind in everything...for example she is working through 2nd grade math right now.

 

Even though she was doing 3rd grade reading when she was in school, she struggled and I started her all over again with All about reading when she came home for 4th grade.  We also used all about spelling.  She has struggled from day 1 with understanding the rules.  She is now in level 4.  This is not a child that can't read.  yes, her comprehension is in left field (due to inattention and working memory) but her fluency is not bad.

 

however, we are working on these multisyllable words (like examination or admirable).  She for the life of her does not know how to divide the syllables.  I show her  (and have shown her over and over again since level 1) and she still is confused:)  She struggles with auditory processing and lots of manipulatives overwhelm her.

 

Soooo, we are a 4th of the way through AAR 4.  I am really questioning what to do after this.  We did drop aas for apples and pears because there was absolutely no understanding of rules (plus I have 2 other kids I'm teaching aar and aas too and I don't enjoy teaching it and it was my entire day:)  We are much happier with apples and pears so far.

 

I'm curious if anyone else that has a kiddo like this.  OG is great and good, but wondering if I should consider high noon or dancing bears?  Again, she needs to work mostly at 4th grade level and above words.  I've used Megawords but balck and white workbooks confuse the daylights out of her plus she gets back to dividing things again.  it overwhelms her. 

 

Any creative suggestions for helping upper level reading without complicated cutting patterns ect?

 

 

[Plink]

AAS is wonderful, but it is not OG. It uses a few OG methods, however it is designed for students who learn at a typical pace. Your child would probably do better with a true OG program designed for remediation like Barton or Wilson. Comprehension and phrasing are a major component of the upper levels. Not the creative answer you were looking for - sorry!

 

Could you hire a tutor to take some of the weight off of your shoulders?

[faithmama]

I question if she really needs something like Barton though.  She would be bored to death starting over and I have looked at the scripting.  I just think she would still be very very confused.  I also don't like that spelling and reading are combined.  Her reading  and spelling are many levels a part.  I will look at them again though. 

 

It's just frustrating because she can easily read through 3rd grade books....and even 4th grade..it's just remembering how to divide the words.  I can show her how to divide the word robot (which Is obviously very easy for her to read).....I will divide and and explain the rule.  If I push the word back together and have her divde it she is confused...yet she can easily read it.  Do you know what I mean.  I'm not talking about forgetting day to day...I'm talking about being confused even in the moment.

 

is this normal for dyslexic kiddos?  I have 3 other dyslexics...they are more typical...bright, but struggle with spelling or reading.  So they don't struggle with the methods.  They get it and understand it.

 

I have thought of Dianne Craft but I can't imagine adding that more time onto my already super long day. :\

 

[FairProspects]

Have you looked at something like Rewards Intermediate? That program is teaching syllable division and addressing comprehension simultaneously. It is also written for 4th-6th graders so it will not seem babyish for her age.

[faithmama]

Have you looked at something like Rewards Intermediate? That program is teaching syllable division and addressing comprehension simultaneously. It is also written for 4th-6th graders so it will not seem babyish for her age.

I will look at that one again.  It is on my possibilities list.  I shouldn't have mentioned that she would be bored in the sense of content...she is just much beyond 1 syllable words... but she is very immature .  Her sister is 3 years younger than her and she (my 12 yo) can be more immature than her sometimes:)  So content is not usually an issue...she is very happy reading about cats....I just need her to read beyond one syllable words .  Does that make sense?

[faithmama]

AAS is wonderful, but it is not OG. It uses a few OG methods, however it is designed for students who learn at a typical pace. Your child would probably do better with a true OG program designed for remediation like Barton or Wilson. Comprehension and phrasing are a major component of the upper levels. Not the creative answer you were looking for - sorry!

 

Could you hire a tutor to take some of the weight off of your shoulders?

Oh and I just saw your recommendation for a tutor.  YEs!  That would be fantastic...but moola.  and I have found that It really doesn't save me time.  I talked to one last year but I would STILL need to sit in the tutoring sessions to see how she is being taught.  So I wouldn't save time and she would only do 2 hours a week.  So for $500 a month it doesn't save much stress:/  PLUS she also receives 3 other therapies which is time...and I have 3 other dyslexics that I need to work with:))

[merry gardens]

I question if she really needs something like Barton though. She would be bored to death starting over and I have looked at the scripting. I just think she would still be very very confused. I also don't like that spelling and reading are combined. Her reading and spelling are many levels a part. I will look at them again though.

 

It's just frustrating because she can easily read through 3rd grade books....and even 4th grade..it's just remembering how to divide the words. I can show her how to divide the word robot (which Is obviously very easy for her to read).....\

With Barton, we use tiles for the lesson befote attempting to spell on paper.The longer words use prefix and suffix tiles in later levels. The suffix "able" wouldn't get split into syllables--it's just on one tile at that point. We also use fingers and such to count syllables. There are several tricks taught to the tutors to help teach the student.

 

 

If you are thinking about Barton, start with the screening. There was a part on the screening relating to syllables. If your dd can't pass that part, Susan Barton recommends something else first. If your dd can pass the screen and you want to try Barton, call them to discuss placement testing if you've used O G materials.

[PeterPan]

It seems to me she has memorized common words but doesn't understand the rules enough to apply them to short non-sense words, which is why she can read robot but not do the syllable breaks herself.  Barton 4 works quite a bit on this, and it slows it down and does it with non-sense words to where it might click.  FP's suggestion of Rewards Intermediate sounds like it would also work.  

 

I second the suggestion to do the pretest for Barton http://bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen and then *call* Barton and talk it through with her.  She will send you placement tests, or she might even suggest you do a different program.  Since she'll talk with you for free, you have nothing to lose.

[LaughingCat]

I second the rewards suggestion

[imagine.more]

I agree that AAR is not a full orton gillingham program. The more I learn about it the less I see it working for a child with dyslexia or global learning challenges. My 13 yo dd is like yours in that she's got overall learning disabilities and is working at about a 3rd grade level in math. We're doing Barton and it's working well for us but I can understand that it's a big time and money commitment.

[Crimson Wife]

OP, have you had a full neuropsych evaluation done independently of the school IEP evaluation? It's fine if you don't feel comfortable sharing the results on a public forum like this. However, I just wanted to strongly encourage you to go get one if you have not already done so. The ladies here rock, but as helpful as the BTDT advice is, it doesn't substitute for getting a good NP eval to determine exactly what your child's strengths and weaknesses are. And complex kids may need multiple evals to get the complete picture.

[Ottakee]

The evaluation sounds like a good idea. Do you see global delays that might indicate a cognitive impairment vs. Learning disabilities?

 

That said, if Apples and Pears is going well for her then I would certainly look at Dancing Bears by the same people. It is cheaper and easy to use and might be enough.

[faithmama]

We had the full scale neuro exam with the school more than once....and no.  we have not had the independent exam done...it is obviously very expensive.  we knew from day 1 that our daughter could have issues due to birth related stuff..  and yes.  I do believe there is actual cognitive impairment .  I have other kids with ld's...this is not the same.

just tonight my husband was encouraging me.  we know and are fully prepared to have our special girl with us for a long time.  we do not have the same goals/expectations as we do our other kiddos.  

I haven't been that interested in getting yet one more test.  We went down that road for something else with her and discovered an 18 mm mass in her brain 2 years ago.  yes.  our hearts stopped.  however, as of now she is ok and our neurologist said that the issues she has are not related to this.  it was an incidental finding and we really shouldn't know about it.  so for 2 years I've stopped investigating her because the last time I pushed for something I opened a huge can of worms:\\  I really emotionally wasn't in the place to learn even more.

 

my husband did encourage me tonight with this though.  he said 2 years ago we were hoping that our daughter would be with us for 6 more months (because for 2 weeks we didn't know what was going on).  DO NOT stress that she can not or may not be able to read to a 12th grade level.  Keep it all in perspective.  and he's right.  We have no idea what is to come with it.

 

anyway......I haven't ruled out the NP exam.  I really don't need to know anymore weaknesses, but I would love to know what her strengths are.  so thank you for that reminder.

 

OP, have you had a full neuropsych evaluation done independently of the school IEP evaluation? It's fine if you don't feel comfortable sharing the results on a public forum like this. However, I just wanted to strongly encourage you to go get one if you have not already done so. The ladies here rock, but as helpful as the BTDT advice is, it doesn't substitute for getting a good NP eval to determine exactly what your child's strengths and weaknesses are. And complex kids may need multiple evals to get the complete picture.

 

[faithmama]

The evaluation sounds like a good idea. Do you see global delays that might indicate a cognitive impairment vs. Learning disabilities?

 

That said, if Apples and Pears is going well for her then I would certainly look at Dancing Bears by the same people. It is cheaper and easy to use and might be enough.

 I responded more to this above, but yes.  I believe it is more cognitive impairment which is why I question more intensive programs.  I need to sit on this and pray.  We will finish AAR because she is learning things!  But then I might do DB C with her.  She has moderate speech issues so I think that Dancing Bears would be great just with helping her coordinate the sounding out of things because it's hard for her to even say the words that she is decoding in these higher level reading programs.

[City Mouse]

I kind of agree with your DH. Who cares if she can divide a word into syllables or spell a random list of words? Personally, I would work on continuing to improve her reading level as much as she can,and then work on her writing focusing more on functional writing such as filling out job applications, writing a letter to a friend, and other things she might actually do as an adult. If you want to work on spelling, I would incorporate list of words that are meaningful to her that she would have a reason to write such as words related to a favorite activity, hobby, recipie, even grocery lists.

[Crimson Wife]

It's confusing because both neurologists and neuropsychologists have similar names. A neurologist is a M.D. who focuses more on the structures and physiological functioning of the brain like brain tumors, epilepsy, etc. A neuropsychologist has a PhD. in either clinical psychology or school psychology and focuses more on the cognitive functioning of the brain. Things like attention, memory, visual and auditory processing, motor planning, phonological processing (ability to manipulate sounds in the mind like segmenting "cat" into /c/ /a/ /t/), and so on. A neuropsych is not going to be doing medical testing like a MRI or anything like that.

 

Some do a type of EEG testing, which looks at the brain waves as a way of supposedly helping to distinguish among various disorders. But there is a lot of controversy over the usefulness of qEEG testing and you actually have to go looking for a neuropsych who offers it since most don't. And even if the neuropsych you choose offers it does not mean you are obligated to have it done. You want a neuropsych who is going to listen to your concerns and only do the tests that you feel comfortable authorizing.

[OneStepAtATime]

Hugs. Barton or any other OG based program really very well may not work that effectively, depending on the underlying strengths/weaknesses but I would give her the Barton prescreening since it is pretty easy to administer and it is free. If she cannot pass that prescreening than she may need more targeted help of a different kind before an OG or OG based program might help.

 

At this point, though, I agree that just giving her more exposure to literature in general may be of more benefit than heavy spelling and reading instruction. Does she do ok with audio books?

 

FWIW, I love Barton, and it has made a huge impact with my kids but my kids both ran into some snags that had to be addressed by outside professionals before we could progress past level 4.

[Ottakee]

Very quick as I have to leave soon, but I would encourage you to get a full eval (using the schools if needed) as you will want to establish as much paperwork as you can now if she were to need extra help when she is 18.  With the proper paper trail, getting SSI disability, extra medical coverage, etc. can be a lot easier than if you don't have that professional paper trail.

[Pen]

My first question is, if she can read the word robot, why do you care if she can divide it?

 

My ds did not have global issues, so in that way different.  OTOH, he did not do well with rules based phonics.  Partly for that reason, Highnoon was a good fit for him, but its level for their basic intervention program, is below what your child already seems to be at.

 

I think Language! might possibly be a good fit, especially to work on comprehension more than for skills like word division.  Comprehension being low would concern me a great deal more than not being able to divide a word according to some rule.

 

If she does not know how to type, you might give a try to www.talkingfingers.com   It would give some typing experience and at the same time work on reviewing sound recognition since it will say to type /s/   that is it gives the sound like "sss" rather than the name of the letter.

 

I agree that some thorough evaluation would likely be of help.  But if she was in SN classes in school you must already have some ideas from that about her situation?  What was the evaluation that led to being in SN in school?

 

If she has a general cognitive impairment then working toward how she can do her life in a way that will fit her may be more important than whether you try this or that language arts program.

 

What are her areas of strength (not necessarily academic), or interests, or passions, or talents that could be built on?  Perhaps something about animals since you mentioned cats?