"Einstein Syndrome" -- Expressive Language Delays

[LisaKinVA]

First-off, I have a girl -- we've been amazed by her understanding of language for a very long time. She's our 4th child, and the only one who isn't speaking at least normally for her age. Dada, Ma-ma, is pretty much the extent of her intelligible words (although she is trying to say moo, will "sing" twinkle-twinkle little star, and babbles like there is no tomorrow). She can say most of the individual letter sounds (she loves the leap frog videos and Little Einsteins).

 

From what I've read, she isn't like most of the children profiled by this book. She's got a will and a temper, but not extremely so. She is interested in using the potty (shocked me), is very expressive non-verbally, very social -- and very sweet. No one would confuse her for being autistic... or anywhere on that spectrum. She does love music, will sit at the piano and "play" (not bang) for 30-60 minutes... she's not yet two.

 

I've been told I should have her evaluated by our pediatrician. All of our family members say that's a waste of time, she'll talk when she's ready. And, I can't help but be a bit concerned (my first-born was speaking in full-blown complex sentences by this age, with a vocabulary and tenacity that impressed a room full of college professors).

 

So, I guess I'm looking for some advice and/or assurances. Has anyone here BTDT?

[Mommy22alyns]

How old is she exactly?

 

I have heard that receptive language (understanding) is more important than expressive. I've also heard that there's not really much concern before the age of 2.

[LisaKinVA]

She will be 2 on July 4th

[KAR120C]

He didn't really have anything in common with the "Einstein syndrome" profile either -- it turns out that he was tongue-tied (short frenulum under his tongue which prevented it from moving properly), and that was likely the source of the problem.

 

It's probably worth bringing up at her next checkup, but I wouldn't panic or anything. The only issue I would particularly keep an eye out for is the frustration of having a lot to say and no way to say it... sign language is a pretty easy way to bridge that gap.

[nmoira]

So, I guess I'm looking for some advice and/or assurances. Has anyone here BTDT?

My youngest had an evaluation at two because she was still only using single words and not speaking clearly. Her receptive language at that point was about 48 months and her expressive language was at 17 or 18 months. She'd never had any trouble getting what she wanted, because she had so many other ways of communication her needs. It wasn't until about the time she'd turned 2 that expressing her needs became an issue. Anyway, she started speaking in sentences at almost the exact moment I passed the cheque over the counter to pay for the evaluation. She's almost 4 now and there's still a gap between receptive and expressive language, but it's narrowing. As long as it continues to narrow, I'm not worried. She's terribly bright, but it's different than my experience with her sister's flair with abstract symbols. She is a builder, a mover (very physically confident), and an artist (she can draw recognizable animals in detailed scenes).

 

My recommendation would be that if you are worried, have her evaluated rather than live with the stress.

[Merry]

Maybe you should have her hearing tested? My two kids that are hard of hearing were like that at that age. They could say many of the sounds fine but not all of them. Can your dd pronounce all of the sounds correctly? It was hard for us to tell if they had hearing problems because they could hear so well but the hearing tests showed that they couldn't hear the high frequency speech sounds.

[nmoira]

 

Maybe you should have her hearing tested?

This is a good suggestion; I forgot that we'd had DD's hearing tested first. It's hard to test kids at this age though, so get references.

[EKS]

My son didn't talk much until he was 2. He is now 12 and has continued to have speech/language problems which have been diagnosed as auditory processing disorder and dyslexia. He is also gifted.

 

Our pediatrician wasn't much help. I would keep an eye on it and get a speech evaluation after she is 2 or 3 (there is some magic age and I think it is 3). I am assuming that at least some of your other children are gifted--if so, your youngest probably is too. Try to get a speech therapist who is familiar with 2E issues. Frequently gifted kids seem fine in evaluations because they are compensating enough to score in the average range.

[Closeacademy]

My dd was 3 before she started talking and 4 before you could hold a conversation with her.

 

She exhibited a lot of the stuff in the book and we did 2 years of speech thereapy. There is a yahoo group that is very active for this kind of thing called NaturalLateTalkers but a lot of the people really tend to harp on about various thereapies. Just let her grow on her own. When she is ready she will talk.

 

My dd did struggle with reading but with graphic novels she is starting to really enjoy reading and I hope to see her some day read longer books. She is excellent with math and science and a real joy. She tends to be more logical and visual and learns very well on the computer or with DVDs or with songs.

 

Hang in there.:001_smile:

[Rebecca in VA]

My 11-year-old daughter hardly talked until she was four, and you couldn't hold a conversation with her until she was well into five.

 

She knew her letters, shapes, colors, etc. before she was a year old from watching "Baby's First Impressions." (She was able to talk enough to say one or two words at a time, so we knew that she recognized these things when she saw them.) She was our family clown and would often do things that were so amazing and funny that we was astonished. She was very loving and clingy. She could read -- extremely well, and with very little instruction -- before she could talk in full sentences. She taught herself to play the piano -- again, with the smallest bit of instruction -- well enough to get through "Teaching Little Fingers to Play" and the beginning of the John Thompson First Grade Book right after she turned six. She's now a Level 9 pianist and doing well. She's the same way with math and logic -- she just knows instinctively how to do them.

 

She often didn't seem to hear me or understand me when she was little. I had her tested at an auditory processing clinic when she was about four, and she did just fine (though possibly she was compensating, as EKS mentioned). She has perfect pitch, so I don't think she has actual hearing difficulties. She was tongue-tied, which we discovered a couple of years ago when her brother's orthodontist mentioned it (no doctor or therapist had ever noticed it before). She stutters under stress. She has a short attention span, which gets much shorter when she's doing things she doesn't like.

 

I've wondered and wondered about her -- she's a real mystery to me -- and I just don't think any of the therapies we pursued made a difference. She did OT at age four and speech therapy for stuttering (which worked until she was under stress again, and then the stuttering came back) when she was seven. I feel (I'm going to get blasted for this, I'm sure) that swimming and ballet did more for her than OT ever did. I just don't know what else we could have done that would have helped her.

[CLHCO]

My twins didn't talk early. They were close to 2 1/2 before they said much and even then they twisted all their consonants up so you couldn't understand them. I didn't have any really early talkers, except perhaps my precocious son who didn't have a lot to say but had the clearest diction for the few things he did. My current youngest is 3 and didn't talk clearly until almost 2 1/2. She's too busy just being the baby of the family but likely will be one of my brightest kids in the end. I can tell.

 

I'd check for anything physically wrong then not worry much for at least 6-8 more months. She sounds like she's hearing fine if she's so receptive, but it's a good thing to check out regardless. Her social behavior likely rules out autism. She just has so many people doing the talking for her or giving her what she wants that she probably doesn't find it worth the effort yet.

 

I don't consider most kids "behind" at just two. I taught Kindermusik for several years and it always blew me away how many people had their barely 2 year old boys in speech therapy because they weren't speaking "x" number of words yet. How many 2 year old boys have something to say? The warning signs for things like autism or hearing problems should be checked out but simply not saying enough words isn't alone something that ruffles my feathers. I've seen too many success stories, including in my own home.

[PinkTulip]

By the time my ds was 25 months old, he had said nothing. Not ma, not da, ball, nothing. He clearly understood me when I asked him things, but no language at all from him. Just earlier in the week, my pediatrician had referred me to someone to start doing some testing. It was the summer and we were barbecuing, and my son came up to me, holding out his cup, and said, "more . . . lime . . . juice . . . please . . . mom?" DH and I nearly fell out of our chairs, we were so stunned! These were literally his very first words spoken in his entire life. He's now my most verbal, logically-oriented, self-motivated, moving forward child of the bunch. He's definitely ahead of where his brothers were at this age, and is within jumping distance of moving ahead, academically, of his brother who is 2 years older. There is hope!

[Storm Bay]

Only one of my kids spoke in complex sentences before two. I have one who had an unusual developmental pattern (not all kids develop in the typical order).

 

Not all gifted kids speak well early, but that doesn't necessarily mean Einstein Syndrome. I have a cousin who didn't speak until the age of 4 that would fit that description, though, and he's one of the few who actually make a living composing non-hit music (he's a postmodernist composer.) fwiw, his social skills are fine, although his older brother is a highly successful lawyer with Asperger's Syndrome who didn't speak late at all.

 

Apparently, late speaking was not unusual in that side of the family, because this cousin's mother didn't speak until 5 (but she has issues), and my grandfather wasn't worried about it at all.

 

Very early speech comes from my mother's family. My mother was speaking at 8 months. While I was speaking in full sentences at 18 months (early side), my mother always thought I was a late talker because my sister was one of those very, very early talkers you read about on gifted sites (although I tested higher than her when they did our IQ tests, but I don't know the actual point spread).

[Catherine]

He did not really say any intellible words until about 21 months, but was speaking full sentences 8 weeks after the first word (which was "baseball player"!). I would not worry.

 

My son seemed to be pouring all of his developmental energy into other areas-he walked, RAN, when he was 9 months old. If your daughter understands language, and it sounds like she does, I'd just keep talking to her. I'm not sure what "Einstein Syndrome" is, but is it music, math, memory? That's my boy to a T.

[kpupg]

Yeah, get all the testing done. Then if they don't find any problem, you might find Thomas Sowell's book "Late-Talking Children" to be interesting. Prayers for you all ...

Karen

[mittmaman]

Our dd (now 4) didn't say ANYTHING apart of MAMA and PAPA before 2.5.

What a difference to her sister who was numbing us with CONSTANT conversation at that age...:tongue_smilie:.

As there were NO other delays our pediatrition said she would not do any testing (apart of audition!) before 3 years.

She also said that this is typically happening with girls, who are born "lower in the birthorder"...3rd, 4th,etc. It seemed like these little ladies liked to put it all together in their head before opening their mouth;).

Sure enough, our dd started to speak at 2.5 and just 6 weeks later there was no delay whatsoever left...it was quite amazing (actually, the weirdest thing was, that she hardly made mistakes, it seemed like she had skipped the "trying out" part...).

 

This is not to advice you not to seek testing!!! ...I did at the time (which I was denied, by a pediatritian who knew her job;))...and I would probably do it again:001_huh:

I just wanted to reassure you, that there is a good chance of your dd ending up just like ours: a very vocal and advanced kid.

 

Good Luck!

[SheWhoWaits]

MShe's almost 4 now and there's still a gap between receptive and expressive language, but it's narrowing.

 

This is not the least unusual, especially for academically gifted children. Mine are 14 and 16 and still have a pretty substantial gap. Edited to say 14 and 16 years (in case anyone was thinking months).

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

My son could read out loud license plates (letters and digits) before he could talk. Yup, he couldn't say 'Mama' or 'Papa' but 'TSL 230' was not a problem!

I remember we were considering having him tested, but he started talking at 2 and a half.

Yes, he fits the Asperger profile. He needs to decode anything he sees.

He's now 10yo, and a non-stop talker.

[LisaKinVA]

Thanks everyone...

 

I've been reading about apraxia -- dd could definitely fit the profile there. I *hope* not, but it's a definite possibility. As I'm sitting here, she's babbling "da da da da da" with various vocal inflections... The only thing that she doesn't "have" on the list is a family history of late talkers.

 

Her hearing isn't an issue. She's had hearing tests (well, what can be admiinistered to youngsters), and passed them all with flying colors.

 

She turns two in 2 weeks. We're looking into the health insurance/costs of evaluation -- but will probably have her evaluated at the end of the summer.

 

At this point, if she develops on her own -- great. But, I don't want to rely on that either.

[AudreyTN]

I think it's common among "youngers" to talk later. My ds5 didn't say much at all until he was around 3. I realize now that he's just a perfectionist when it comes to those things. When he did start talking it was in complete sentences. It's like he wanted to get it right in his head before he tried it out loud. We used to joke that he must've been practicing when we weren't around.

 

My 18month old is still not talking. He says mama and dada, but mostly as "sounds." His comprehension is beyond belief though. At his 18 month check up (10 days ago) they asked if he was saying 20-25 words. I said, "No." She said, "Oh, that's ok." So they weren't worried.

 

I don't know exactly how accurate this is, but my MIL says that my husband didn't speak one word until he was 3 years old.

[lighthouseacademy]

I have 3 kids and all 3 talked with a different pattern...

My oldest (boy) was 21 months and had 30+ signs and 10 words. He started talking in full intelligible sentences without mispronunciations when he was about 2 1/2. When he went in at 15 months for his well check, the ped, who was usually very laid back was concerned that he wasn't saying a single word yet. We gave it some time, and at about 2, I spoke with a speech therapist. She laughed and said she wouldn't be worried until he was at least 2.5 and not speaking at all as long as he was comprehending what I was saying he was fine... I think she was quite right. That child reads voraciously, speaks with an advanced vocabulary, had hardly any words that were "baby-talk, etc.

My second child (girl) was speaking in full intelligible to the public sentences at 21 months. I was blown away.

Then along came my third, a girl. She didn't speak a single word until 22 months. Not even mama. At 18 months, the ped was worried and wanted her hearing tested, which I declined because she understood completely everything I said, even from another room or floor of the house- so she wasn't reading lips. She now has a whole repertoire of words. Some are difficult to understand still, but she is putting more together. I think her siblings did a lot of talking for her and she was fully communicative as to what she wanted or needed even though she wasn't using words, so to her, she saw no point in using words. She will be 2 July 8 and is potty trained too (she insisted on the potty at 5 weeks)... Before she poke any words, a few months ago, I spoke with another speech therapist and told her of my dd and was again told not to worry until she was over 2 with ZERO words. I was also told that the olders were probably talking for her and that if she was understanding and communicating, it would come.

So, personally, I don't worry.

 

BTW, my half sister didn't talk until 3 and my dh is rumored to have not talked until 3 even though I spoke before a year.

[TracyR]

Oh absolutely we've been there and done that . I have with 3 out of my four .

My oldest talked in full blow sentences at age 9 months . I kid you not . I thought this was the standard norm so when I had my 2nd daughter and she wasn't talking at this age , nor at 1 or 2 , but not until she was 3 it was different . She had also had seizures as a baby so it actually put her back because she was babbling at 9 months , momma , dadda . But after her seizures started ( right around 9 months old ) that all ended and it was more fits and screaming because she had been both diagnosed with receptive and expressive language delays . She is 8 now and is working at a late 3rd grade level , reads at a 5th grade level . She was my early reader at age 4 and I thought I was doing something wrong . But I wasn't . She picked it all up . My oldest who talked in full sentences didn't start comfortably reading like my 8yr old does until last year at the age of 9 . Math is her difficult subject though and that's because of her receptive skills . YOu just have to get that info in there in a different way , once you do she's got it . She has had speech therapy from the time she was little and is still doing so today . But only because she was tongue tied and this affected the way she pronounced some letters . But not due to lack of speech . Once she started talking you can't shut her up to save her life now .

 

Then there is my just turned 5 yr old who didn't speak until she was 4.5 . But she had apraxia due to a traumatic birth . So it delayed her language . But not her receptive skills . She is smart as a whip . Once she started talking though , now she too talks and talks and talks . I've noticed though the whole time she was quiet she observed alot around her and soaked EVERYTHING up . We are just now starting on how to learn to read just because , well now she has the verbal skills . But I'm sure I would of been able to start with her alot sooner then now . While she was quiet she taught herself literally at the age of three how to write her alphabet letters . She knows all her letter sounds ( she was listening :>) So we can skip all that and go right into reading . Math I'm not sure about , right now she's been having difficulties with learning her colors and recognizing numbers. But I think its more of her not really applying herself . She's not colorblind . Had her tested . So I'm not sure how math will go for my 3rd at the moment . Only time will tell .

 

My 4th is almost 2 and she is talking . Which is great because she has other health problems that are more an issue at the moment then her speech . But she does have a speech therapist that comes in once a week .

 

All I see is that it helps . Not hinders . There isn't anything wrong with getting a speech therapist or having Early Intervention come to your home to help things along . Sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't . But it definitley doesn't hurt . I always say the younger they are and the sooner you to get help the better off they are . I've seen children not progress very well when not given the help they need early on .

Will it change anything and make them talk sooner ? Maybe , maybe not . Its very individualized . Some children do progress with the help . My 4th daughter is . Some donot like my 2nd and 3rd. It came to them when it came to them .

I know though I always encourage seeking your ped's advice as sometimes there are underlying conditions that need to be treated as well . My motto " What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger . "

[The Governess]

I have had the same experience with my own DD2. She will be 2 in August. She is adopted and for the first 8 months of her life was mostly in a crib, so that contributed to her delays. She does have about 50 or so words now, but has been in speech therapy for about 5 months which has really helped her. Her pronunciation is clear on only a handful of words though, the rest only DH and I know what she is saying pretty much. Just in the last couple weeks she has added a lot of words and is talking a lot more.

 

Her issues are that she has low oral awareness (she has been diagnosed with low muscle tone - which has improved tremendously- but it makes her "lazy" about using her mouth and voice muscles) and oral aversion. She used to hate eating or being fed a bottle. She never puts things in her mouth when she is exploring. So her therapists have been using things to improve her oral awareness, like vibrating tools, sour and other stimulating foods, even pop rocks (which was very funny to watch) to get her to be more aware of what is happening in her mouth. She is much more comfortable now with me touching her mouth and is a great eater now. She is also a "mover" - she is way more interested in climbing, jumping, running, squirming, dancing - you get the picture - than she is in being verbal. I think in general that kids who are "seekers" of physical feedback at her level just aren't interested in talking as much until they have mastered all of their physical skills.

 

All of that to say that there are so many reasons why your child may be delayed, and that therapy started early has such a great potential to help. In California we have a program called Early Start - if a child under age 3 is delayed in an area of development, they get free therapy. Maybe your state has some sort of resource like this? I can only imagine that speech therapy is expensive and may not be covered by insurance at this young age.

 

Hope something in there provided some insight..I feel a bit rambly today. Good luck with your research and decisions!

[Papillon Mom]

I am so thrilled to see this topic and talk about Thomas Sowell's books!

I highly recommend the yahoo group Natural Late Talkers. This group is full of parents who WILL NOT try to diagnose your child online. I cannot stand that!:angry: We aren't anti-intervention, just educated about what works for LT-ers and what DOESN'T! Beware of therapists who have an agenda or "outreach programs" that want to check boxes. We live in a society obsessed with labeling. Enjoy your LTer. There are a ton of therapies that YOU can do at home w/out a "professional". There is also a book by Jim Mcdonald called, "Play to Talk" that is very popular.

My brothers were both LTers and lots of money, time, and angst was spent on "therapies"! What a waste! They matured in their own time! My heavens, I can't get them to shut up now! Not everyone is going to have "20 words at 20 months"!!!!! Oh, the horrors!! :ack2:

And Apraxia, the new popular label, is actually usually used to diagnose stroke victims and extremely rare in children (although you'd never know that to talk to many "professionals").

I am so tired of ALL the LABELING!!!!!! People are different! Not everyone's development follows a check list and guess what... Those that don't aren't all in DESPERATE need of an SLP!!!!:ohmy:

Do what you think is right and don't allow your mommy self to be BULLIED by pseudo professionals and their scare-tactic pseudo science!

Take Care,

Mommy of 2.7 yo LT-ing DD

[mmjkjashipley]

Personally, I would get your child tested, just be aware of possible agendas like previously suggested. Our ds had about 15 words by the time he was two and made sounds for the things like drink. I asked our doctor several times about his lack of speech and was told not to worry about. Then a good friend who is also a speech therapist babysat for me. She said he needed to be evaluated and that she didn't think it was something he would outgrow. We had him evaluated and he got a great therapist who really got the ball rolling. We did therapy three times a week until our insurance ran out. Our insurance would only cover till he was three b/c the school system did it for free when they turned three. We went thru the school system but the excellent therapy he had already received it what got him going. Now he talks our ears off. He still has some pronunciation issues but once I saw how the therapist worked, I could do it at home. Now he did not have a serious issue. He just learned to talk with his mouth closed. We had to retrain his tongue to form words. As for agendas, the school system wanted him to continue another year but they only would see him for 30 minutes twice a week and there was always a possibility of other children joining us. Not worth the time and effort to get all of the kids there.

[Isa]

My first born didn't really start talking until he was around 27 months and has had no problems expressing himself. My sixth who is a boy just turned two and isn't talking yet, but babbles a lot.

 

My husband was a premie and also a late talker. My mother-in-law likes to say that he started talking real late, but has made up for it ever since:)

[Harmony]

If I were you, I would still try to rule out all potential worries. That was what I did when my son did not make a sentence until age 3. He was able to speak only 26 words at age 2 1/2. I talked to everyone that I could think of as professionals, including hearing tests. He had a huge receptive language and he started recognizing all letters at age 1 and reading at 2 but would not talk or make sentences.

 

One thing that really helped him more focusing on speaking was the sign language. At age 2, I showed him one of the sign language videos that used all 5 senses, ( I got it from the library) including the subtitle on the bottom of the screen. He went crzay about the sign language video and mastered all the signs after watching it 2-3 times. One of his early childhood teachers (he went to private school from 2-5) said that kids develop their abilities one at a time. He was obviously a lot more interested in reading than speaking.

Sign language video urged him start to talk and he gradually started talking a lot more.

 

I also always worried about the gap between his receptive and expressive language. Now at age 7, he is doing very well. The gap has tremendously gotten narrowed after we started homeshcooling that gave him more chances to explore his interest and to read different materials.

 

Hope this helps.

[VanessaS]

My son could read out loud license plates (letters and digits) before he could talk. Yup, he couldn't say 'Mama' or 'Papa' but 'TSL 230' was not a problem!

I remember we were considering having him tested, but he started talking at 2 and a half.

Yes, he fits the Asperger profile. He needs to decode anything he sees.

He's now 10yo, and a non-stop talker.

But, I thought that Asperger's precludes late-talking? I liked your entry, because mine also read license plates before he could talk. He also barked like a dog, meowed like a cat, and mooed like a cow. And he could count to 10 in 2 languages, knew all his letters, shapes, and colors, and could complete a 200-piece puzzle on his own. But no "Mama" until 23 months old!

He's speaking now, BTW, and is a total visual-spatial wiz-kid.

 

Anyway, I've read Sowell's book "The Einstein Syndrome" and Lisa Silverman's "Upside-Down Brilliance" (about visual-spatial thinkers) and I have to say that a lot of your descriptions fit this to a tee.

Both of my children are like that and it's absolutely amazing to watch them develop. They do not follow the baby-manual lists! :)

 

I'd say, have them evaluated but when they don't find anything, relax and enjoy them. My daughter didn't speak at all (17 mo) and then, 2 days ago, she brought me a Baby-bell cheese to open, held it out to me and said, "Help me, please!" Then, when her father came home (she saw his car pull up) she ran to the door yelling, "Daddy's home!". And at dinner, when she climbed onto the table (a bad habit of hers, and apparently typical for these children) I told her to "Sit down, Becky!" She repeated my words exactly and then sat right down.

She hasn't spoken again since. These kids... :lol:

[Storm Bay]

But, I thought that Asperger's precludes late-talking? I liked your entry, because mine also read license plates before he could talk. He also barked like a dog, meowed like a cat, and mooed like a cow. And he could count to 10 in 2 languages, knew all his letters, shapes, and colors, and could complete a 200-piece puzzle on his own. But no "Mama" until 23 months old!

He's speaking now, BTW, and is a total visual-spatial wiz-kid.

 

 

 

Apparently, Asperger's is going to be redefined. This is according to a ps speech therapist I chat with from time to time. She said it's going to be taken off the Autism spectrum, and it sounds like they're finally dividing the socially outgoing Aspies from those who are not socially outgoing. I think this is an excellent idea because Asperger's has been more of an umbrella diagnosis.

 

Having done a lot of reading, etc, on Asperger's I'm leary of Wikipedia as a great source on it. Some aspies talk late, some early. But sometimes hg kids are misdiagnosed with Asperger's, too. Mine was--she never had all 6 of the diagnostic criteria and once we found out she had mulitple food sensitivities and changed her diet, she only has a couple, and fits far more into the hg sensitive, quirky kid profile. She was not my later talker, though, but was an early talker. Not as early as my mother, but had her first true word at 6 months, strung words together by a year, etc, etc. Her first word was for "nurse", not mama or dada. In fact, all of my kids had the n sound as their first consonant. So much for the book I read that said all kids start with m, b or d!

[LisaKinVA]

Just a quick update. Our little one has started to speak more and more words (and attempt more and more words). As well as short sentences, doing her letter names & sounds -- all pretty much in the last month. Each day there is something new. She still babbles a lot -- but when she wants something, she is really trying to say the word.

 

So, I'm going to just take a bit to see what happens and chart the progress she's making. It's just good to understand more of what she wants (even if it's Otter Pops for breakfast!).

 

The cutest moment was when we got out bubbles and she started demanding, "I blow bubba" "I blow bubba" --those words had never been heard before that afternoon.

 

She seems to really like saying words with the "oh" sound and "oo" sound.