NYT article: Class Matters

[cathmom]

You and me, both. I was awed once I started reading her works.

 

But to the OP. I think I started to formulate my opinions on this when I was a Big Sister.

 

The problems are so vast, so deep within generations that it takes a *lot* to overcome them. Not only are you talking about educational capabilities, educational/ family environment, but emotional intelligence, which a lack of can hamper all of it. From being a Big Sister, I learned that if a family doesn't teach emotional intelligence, along with having a value for education, many of those kids will still be stuck in the great divide.

 

 

 

Exactly. If you read Outliers, there's a whole chapter about a totally brilliant man from a terrible background who was not able to overcome it.

[Stacy in NJ]

Okay, I just believe too much emphasis is placed on percieved natural talent and IQ. I just do. If your child has any ability, they should be expected to achieve whether it is piano or multiplication tables. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but its just how I see things. IQ and the presence or lack of percieved natural talent can become a crutch, positive or negative, affecting expectations.

 

We do have some control over how we and our children develop and use the abilities we have.

 

With my own children I never, never, never focus on a natural ability or lack of. I only comment or compliment focus, persistence, consistency, patience. Basically, I focus on those qualities that can be cultivated. I llet God deal with the rest.

[Virg]

One thing I have seen a lot (teaching preschool and doing daycare) in the inner cities along with the above factors from many PPs is prenatal drug, alcohol, and/or nicotine exposure. Also children are put into low-cost day cares and are not played with or interacted with as infants and toddlers. I see a big difference in ability between preschoolers whose parents play with them and interact with them and others whose parents are stressed to the max and just trying to get through everyday. Some of that could be eliminated through parent education but there are a lot of parents who know they should play with their babies and should not drink while pregnant and just don't care. I don't think these two things are a prevailing factor but they are definitely not rare in low socioeconomic areas.

 

However even if a you have parents who don't don't spend time with their children but they have means, the children will usually be placed in a daycare that has educated workers who play with the children in developmentally appropriate ways. For instance my parents both worked 60+ hours a week but my DB and I had a nanny who was wonderful and worked with us constantly. (Don't get me wrong we had emotional issues from never seeing them but between our nanny and our private school later there were no issues academically.)

[zaichiki]

If your child has any ability, they should be expected to achieve whether it is piano or multiplication tables. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but its just how I see things. IQ and the presence or lack of percieved natural talent can become a crutch, positive or negative, affecting expectations.

 

And, like Suzuki teachers say, practice begets achievement. But what I am saying is that the achievement can and will be different considering there are also other factors involved.

 

Can a child learn their multiplication tables (barring a disability that makes it impossible)? Of course. Do some kids learn them faster than others and remember them better? Of course. Is it sometimes due to the amount of practice time? Sure. But there *are* kids who will learn them and retain them with much less practice/review time than others.

 

And the same can be said for music. Practice and the child will achieve. Of course. More practice equals more achievement. Of course. *However* there simply do exist kids who will practice for the same amount of time as most of the other kids and achieve faster and play better. Yes: these kids exist. There also exist kids who will practice the same amount of time and will achieve less than average and won't play as well.

 

We must consider the other factors. Some may have an internal drive, interest, and motivation for the material (music, math, whatever). Some may have something like photographic memory, but for music/sound. Some may have above average fine motor skills, which means they'll need less repetition to learn the physical skills necessary to play a musical instrument. I think anyone who discounts these natural differences in kids and says a Tiger Mom can make any child able to do X and Y level is simply mistaken. Maybe they just haven't had the opportunity to get to know kids who have a variety of natural strengths and weaknesses yet.

[Ester Maria]

Okay, I just believe too much emphasis is placed on percieved natural talent and IQ. I just do. If your child has any ability, they should be expected to achieve whether it is piano or multiplication tables. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but its just how I see things. IQ and the presence or lack of percieved natural talent can become a crutch, positive or negative, affecting expectations.

Oh, please do not misunderstand me - I agree with you, in principle. :001_smile:

I simply thought a discussion of these issues would be incomplete if the other side of the story were not brought up; but for practical purposes, like you, I also take the attitude of focusing on the factors which are, at least to a certain extent, under our control. Personally, I do not hold IQ tests in very high regard; I also agree that a perceived talent or lack of it can affect expectations greatly, and I take an attitude that one has to work with the person one has in front of them, without overthinking the whole talent / intelligence issue, trying to meet the child where they are and to get their maximum out of them. But I also think that not overthinking these issues and not overemphasizing the importance of these factors should not mean they are absent from the picture. I have seen many cases in which people are, effectively, fooling themselves because they simply fail to recognize that there are those factors too, so there are many children crashing under the expectations of their parents who refuse to believe that a child who "has everything" can possibly underachieve, etc. I know of many a "We invested so much into you, and you bla bla bla to us" kind of guilt-tripping from wealthy parents, highly regarded professionals in their fields, who have normal and even hardworking kids, but whose kids are simply not geniuses that they are, and the parents just cannot seem to cope with that and to let kids be who they are, not who the parents wish the kids were. I think the emotional damage which is created in such relationships is really big at times, even if the parents mean well.

So, it goes both ways. I think expectations need to be high, but appropriate, keeping in mind that people are simply not the same. And yet, during the whole process, I think what we must focus on is effort and accomplishment, rather than "potential" - just like you seem to be saying.

[justamouse]

In this month's Nat Geo there is an excellent article on twins, and they are saying that intelligence is genetic. The researchers know it's not PC and have faced much pressure to back down on their findings, but that's what they're saying.

[zaichiki]

In this month's Nat Geo there is an excellent article on twins, and they are saying that intelligence is genetic. The researchers know it's not PC and have faced much pressure to back down on their findings, but that's what they're saying.

 

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/11/1108_TVbrainmatter.html

Is this it?

This article seems to say that genetics is only 10-15% of the intelligence picture... which obviously leaves a lot to nurture.

[beaners]

I think it's this article. It's very interesting.

 

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/01/twins/miller-text

[Stacy in NJ]

In this month's Nat Geo there is an excellent article on twins, and they are saying that intelligence is genetic. The researchers know it's not PC and have faced much pressure to back down on their findings, but that's what they're saying.

 

adopted twins (twins that went to different families). They found the twins' measured IQ over the course of several decades remained consistently closer to their birth mother's than to their adopted parents'. This remained true with more consistancy when it was an inter-racial adoption of mostly black children adopted by white parents.

 

IQ is hugely determinative and most scientists in the field are very aware of this. It remains an extrodinarily controversial topic and most will not discuss it.

[Homeschoolnewbe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_race_and_intelligence_controversy

 

I think that IQ tests make excellent outhouse wallpaper! LOL :tongue_smilie:

And honestly, this link does not begin to express what I think about beginning an article like this with a reference to Francis Galton.

[Homeschoolnewbe]

We do have some control over how we and our children develop and use the abilities we have.

 

With my own children I never, never, never focus on a natural ability or lack of. I only comment or compliment focus, persistence, consistency, patience. Basically, I focus on those qualities that can be cultivated. I llet God deal with the rest.

 

:iagree:

[Homeschoolnewbe]

Oh, please do not misunderstand me - I agree with you, in principle. :001_smile:

I simply thought a discussion of these issues would be incomplete if the other side of the story were not brought up; but for practical purposes, like you, I also take the attitude of focusing on the factors which are, at least to a certain extent, under our control. Personally, I do not hold IQ tests in very high regard; I also agree that a perceived talent or lack of it can affect expectations greatly, and I take an attitude that one has to work with the person one has in front of them, without overthinking the whole talent / intelligence issue, trying to meet the child where they are and to get their maximum out of them. But I also think that not overthinking these issues and not overemphasizing the importance of these factors should not mean they are absent from the picture. I have seen many cases in which people are, effectively, fooling themselves because they simply fail to recognize that there are those factors too, so there are many children crashing under the expectations of their parents who refuse to believe that a child who "has everything" can possibly underachieve, etc. I know of many a "We invested so much into you, and you bla bla bla to us" kind of guilt-tripping from wealthy parents, highly regarded professionals in their fields, who have normal and even hardworking kids, but whose kids are simply not geniuses that they are, and the parents just cannot seem to cope with that and to let kids be who they are, not who the parents wish the kids were. I think the emotional damage which is created in such relationships is really big at times, even if the parents mean well.

So, it goes both ways. I think expectations need to be high, but appropriate, keeping in mind that people are simply not the same. And yet, during the whole process, I think what we must focus on is effort and accomplishment, rather than "potential" - just like you seem to be saying.

 

OMG, Ester Maria... something magical may have just happened... I think perhaps, we are.... in agreement!!!:w00t:

That is exactly my point. There just seems to be wayyyyy too much focus on what we can't change and not enough on what we CAN change, like developing a work ethic and pride in accomplishment.

JM2C

[zaichiki]

There just seems to be wayyyyy too much focus on what we can't change and not enough on what we CAN change, like developing a work ethic and pride in accomplishment.

JM2C

 

I think the most important thing is to develop work ethic, but I think it's extremely important to remember that there are other factors involved. We must be flexible enough to ensure that our expectations meet the specific child's abilities. From whom much is given, much is expected and all that... but where there is *not* extra advantage, we must realize that.

 

My comments come from personal experience with a family member who has unrealistic expectations and who expects the same achievement from all children in all areas regardless of the differences in the children. I don't know how to make this person realize that a child is doing his/her best and that should be appreciated instead of measured against another child whose best is "more" (this happens in various areas and for various reasons).

[kalanamak]

 

My comments come from personal experience with a family member who has unrealistic expectations and who expects the same achievement from all children in all areas regardless of the differences in the children.

 

I never got this from my family, but from the school system. The two of us who came after the two Super Stars did very much worse in high school than any of the other four. One of us never graduated high school and the other did late. It was so unpleasant, if a teacher asked if I was so and so's sister, I immediately dropped the class.

[Roadrunner]

We are talking about expectations in the context of public schools, right? If so, unless a child has special needs, failing current public school standards can't possibly be an intelligence issue. I am not saying everybody is smart. Far from it. I do believe there is everything from "not bright" to a genius in this world and probably a lot of it has to do with genetics. However, I think even the "low intelligence" kids that aren't special needs could keep up with current PS standards (maybe not straight As, but surely they could pass and pass well) and we shouldn't be having a problem of massive failure rates in some schools because those kids aren't smart. Very few would succeed in MIT, but nobody is asking those kids to perform under MIT standards.

[zaichiki]

We are talking about expectations in the context of public schools, right? If so, unless a child has special needs, failing current public school standards can't possibly be an intelligence issue. I am not saying everybody is smart. Far from it. I do believe there is everything from "not bright" to a genius in this world and probably a lot of it has to do with genetics. However, I think even the "low intelligence" kids that aren't special needs could keep up with current PS standards (maybe not straight As, but surely they could pass and pass well) and we shouldn't be having a problem of massive failure rates in some schools because those kids aren't smart. Very few would succeed in MIT, but nobody is asking those kids to perform under MIT standards.

 

I think a lot of the comments were directed toward the comment about a classful of children acing a spelling test except for two kids who consistently got a couple of words wrong on every test. I think some were trying to point out that we *can't* say the reason these two kids were different was socio-economic or lack of parental support. We can't say that for sure. There could be other factors.

[Homeschoolnewbe]

My comments come from personal experience with a family member who has unrealistic expectations and who expects the same achievement from all children in all areas regardless of the differences in the children. I don't know how to make this person realize that a child is doing his/her best and that should be appreciated instead of measured against another child whose best is "more" (this happens in various areas and for various reasons).

 

Now, please don't think I believe every child can be a surgeon or an engineer. I know what you mean by expecting every child to have the exact same interests and then constantly measuring them against each other. My mother grew up in a time and place that said success was being a doctor or an engineer. Period. No room for variation. Doctor or engineer. That is not healthy, but what is healthy is expecting every able child to exhibit hard work and accomplish reasonable goals, like learning to read, write, and handle your own affairs.

Why is that not a reasonable expectation for every able child regardless of race or class?

Again, JM2C

[Beth in SW WA]

Educational priorities began in the home which your example of Ben Carson shows.

 

:iagree:

I checked out his video from the library yesterday per the recommendation in this thread. The girls and I are re-watching it this morning. He is living proof the American dream is alive and well.

 

Thank you to whomever recommended his book/video. :)