Algebra sanity check...(long)

[G5052]

Last night I read a bunch of the old Algebra posts here, and I think I have a plan, but I need input. I'm a former research science and have combined being part-time IT professor with homeschooling for years, so I'm fine teaching math and don't need extensive solution guides.

 

DS finished CLE MATH 6, and then did LOF Fractions and Percents, which he loved. He didn't want to continue with CLE because he's weary of all the review (it's a lot like Saxon), and my sense was that he wasn't quite ready for algebra. He's a young 7th grader and found every other aspect of pre-algebra to be a piece of cake (i.e. exponents, order of operations, geometry, etc.), and is doing several other subjects at the high school level. Meanwhile he been growing like crazy, is shaving, his voice is changing -- all the signs of becoming more of a teen than a boy.

 

So we went through Math-U-See Pre-Algebra, which he finished this week. It was OK. He didn't like the video aspect, and said that he prefers reading text and teaching himself. He had a hard time with the algebra portions (i.e. 2x + 4 = 4x -6). We did them together, but his brain is clearly not quite there yet.

 

So my sense is that we should do more pre-algebra. I ordered LOF Pre-Algebra for him last night, and then I'm thinking of going into Jacob's Algebra because it's a more gentle pace than most and starts with pre-algebra. I can borrow Jacob's with the Teacher's Manual from a friend, which is ideal because we're struggling financially. I just don't think he's quite up to LOF Algebra alone although I do own LOF Algebra.

 

My sense is that he's quite capable, but just needs more time before we really get into algebra. I'm thinking that he may do best with doing slowly Algebra I over 8th and 9th grade.

 

Thoughts?

[Laura Corin]

Yes, I'd wait on LOF Algebra. It sounds like the abstract processing has not quite kicked in yet. Calvin is doing it and, while the presentation is fun, it's not that easy.

 

Laura

[G5052]

Yes, I'd wait on LOF Algebra. It sounds like the abstract processing has not quite kicked in yet. Calvin is doing it and, while the presentation is fun, it's not that easy.

 

Laura

 

I looked at it last night, and my first thought was -- no way. He'll bottom out.

[Stacy in NJ]

We're doing Foester's with the Math Without Boaders DVD's for 7th grade. It's a tough text. We're just finishing up with the first section on polynomials, chapter 5 (I think). The next chapter builds to the quadratic equation. I think Foerster uses a slightly untypical sequence. For my math strong student it has been challenging.

 

I guess my approach isn't to hold off on Algebra, pre-algebra concepts offer no new material - at this point, but rather to work through the material carefully, letting him absorb it. We'll most likely need to finish up the text in 8th grade - so it will take us 1 1/2 years to finish. For us, I don't know that holding off on algebra would have resolved the problem of jumping to more abstract thinking. At some point they just have to do it.

[Carol in Cal.]

...recommend doing Algebra 1 and Geometry twice, so that they will really sink in.

 

I'm pursuing that with DD. This year she is doing Saxon Algebra 1, and she is doing respectably well in it. But next year, if she attends a brick and mortar high school, she will probably take Algebra 1 honors--that way she will learn the material again, the high school's way, at an accelerated pace. In that manner she will also be eligible the science classes that have Algebra 1 as their prerequisite, because she has to test into A1H.

 

If she does not pass the Algebra 1 test out exam, then she will have to take Algebra 1 again. In that case, I might have her spend an extra year in 8th grade, homeschooling, and going through Lial's Algebra 1.

 

For her, and YMMV, the review and redo of Saxon is helpful. So for her, I think that two runs through Algebra 1, using different materials each time, would be in her ultimate best interest.

 

A side note--Saxon Algebra 1 is a pretty focused program. It's less spiraling and more like a mastery program than previous years. Saxon pre-algebra (87), however, is very scattered. I had to work very hard with DD to get her arms around the whole picture. The small increments of new material in pre-algebra don't work as well as they do in a very progressive course such as Algebra 1. So if that drives your DS crazy, I would not recommend Saxon 87 as his new pre-algebra program.

 

I own Algebra 1/2, Saxon's advanced pre-algebra program, and it seems more focused. If I were you, I would try to take a look at that one...it bridges into Algebra 1 more than most pre-algebra programs, I think. Another option that I would consider if I were you is Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1. That doesn't cover Algebra 1 in its entirety, but is a slow, easy intro to algebra. Then a standard text afterwards would be much easier to get through. Just a thought.

[Julie in MN]

...recommend doing Algebra 1 and Geometry twice, so that they will really sink in.

 

I used multiple algebras with my older dd until we found a program that helped her succeed in any format that I presented to her.

 

For my youngest, multiple programs would be redundant. But having some wiggle room for stretching things out would be nice. He's doing well, but it's kinda like when he was absorbing long division and his brain felt like it would explode. Some of the concepts are just weird to him at first. No matter how much I or the math video explain, he just doesn't have any place in his brain for it for a bit.

 

e.g. a(2 +3)= 2a+3a -- he just couldn't accept that there was one "a" and then there were two.

 

Or, a(2+3)/a = 2+3 -- where did my "a" go?!

 

Of course I explained by plugging in examples of different numbers that "a" could represent, and showing him that you could gather a lot of measurements for the size of a room but not all of them would be necessary in the end. But the thing he needs time. After a day or two, he's fine & it's easy for him to do the problems, and after a week or two he usually thinks the explanation is obvious.

 

Maybe my youngest is weird, but I do think if you start algebra in 7th, you should definitely take advantage of having extra time. There are lots of math rabbit trails you could go on so you are still "doing math" while waiting for a concept to sink in.

 

Julie

[Susan C.]

No new ground when so much physical change is going on!! Even if he breezes through the pre-algebra, that is the way to go, or do consumer math for a year (like A Beka). Consumer math is where a teen boy's head is at, I wish I had done it instead of grueling through Algebra 1 before my son was ready for it. When we hit those years with ds, we were doing good to keep him fed (he grew six inches in a year) and awake (I found him asleep with his face in his book more than once)!! I have also heard Lial's Basic College Math recommended for pre-algebra, but I haven't personally used it.

[Storm Bay]

I agree with Laura; LOF isn't as easy as one might think given how fun it is. When my dd was arithmetically ready for Algebra but not mature enough, etc, I had her start a Russian math program from Perpendicular Press. http://www.perpendicularpress.com It includes some pre-Algebra but teaches math differently than NEM or SM. It's called gr 6, but it's definitely beyond SM 6 in a number of areas (perhaps not all). We don't yet have a copy of LOF pre-Algebra, so I can't comment on that, but we have LOF Fractions, Decimals, Algebra, Geometry & Trig. My eldest is a huge fan of LoF.

 

My eldest tried Jacobs Algebra at 11 and found its gentleness boring.

 

After that I recommend doing Algebra 1 twice with different books, whether it takes you one year or two. After doing this with my eldest, albeit between the ages of 11& 14 (she started Geometry at 14) I am a huge fan of this. My other two are going to do this as well. My eldest is very mathy and had a mind like a steel trap for arithmetic, but doing it twice helped her learn to think Algebraically which is an enormous plus. She's only doing Geometry once, but with more than one program, but my plan is to have my other two do Geometry twice consecutively if they finish Algebra 1 in time for the to do this given what their academic aspirations are, etc.

[Julie in MO]

I also researched old posts about algebra, specifically Saxon's. Dd (13) is doing Saxon's algebra I this year (8th). We like Saxon's approach, however, some concepts are just not sinking in. We find ourselves reviewing some things repeatedly (while others are "easy"). Primarily we struggle with geometry. I see suggestions on this board consistently to do more than one program to help solidify concepts and to see different approaches, however, I can't figure out how anyone fits more than one program into a school day/week/year. Saxon takes up quite a bit of time, then we concentrate on other subjects. May I ask how one fits in other programs, please? I own LOF, but we stopped using it because of time constraints. I see the value of doing this and would like to, but can't envision how to make it happen.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Julie

[Nissi]

My oldest started Foerster's Algebra I midway through 6th grade after completing Lial's BCM and did well but took 1.5 to almost 2 years to complete it. He was done by the beginning of 8th grade. But he also did Number Theory with AoPS and Math Counts that year. My younger one is doing Foersters Algebra I in 6th grade and is currently completing chapter 3 in doing fine with it so far.

[G5052]

I had him take the "Ask Dr. Callahan" Algebra Readiness Test, and he nearly aced it, so I guess we're headed towards algebra, but at a slower place probably.

 

The LOF Pre-Algebra book arrived today, so he'll do that and then try Jacob's because the cost is right, and I think that's a better choice at this point than LOF.

[Julie in MN]

May I ask how one fits in other programs, please? I own LOF, but we stopped using it because of time constraints. I see the value of doing this and would like to, but can't envision how to make it happen.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Julie

 

Hi fellow Julie :)

 

I also am amazed by those who do two whole algebras etc. I can't do that.

 

However, I've often used more than one math over the years & still have more than one thing going on with my 8th grader who's using Math Relief Algebra.

 

Here are some of the things that I think make it work:

 

- I always have to have a "main program" that I plan to complete fully. (With my older dd, that main program did switch a few times during the first year, and I ended up calling some of it "prealgebra" and then her Math Relief was her "algebra" credit.)

 

- I've usually been schooling one child at a time, so mom isn't trying to do dozens of maths. Also, I think a larger family allows the child to benefit from the sibling maths that are going on around him, so my children haven't gotten that benefit or used up that extra time.

 

- When I started homeschooling, I was using MFW's ECC which had two maths scheduled in the grid -- one was the math program and the other was math facts practice. I guess I got used to that from the beginning.

 

- I've not been afraid to take longer in a math program, if needed. Ds didn't complete Singapore 6B until the end of 7th grade, because he'd done some MUS and other things when he needed to sit in one place for a while. I'm a little more hesitant to do this now that he's hit Algebra, but not completely ruling it out.

 

- One of his math extras is done outside the house, so it's more like a break than an extra math (Math Team). He does have to prepare for math team during the week, but he actually likes the kinds of math puzzles they do, so I can often have him do that when I need him to work on his own, or when we have some time at the end of the day to do something together. It was the same way last year when he'd do math puzzles on the computer (Math Blockout, etc).

 

- One of his math extras this year (word problems from CWP 6 and from Critical Thinking Press) is done as a break after each Algebra quiz, so we take a day off of Algebra every so often. We've also used it as "Friday math" at times.

 

- I'm not afraid to assign "math homework" for evenings or weekends, if he needs extra time on an Algebra assignment. His friends have public school math homework (which he says is easy). And he just doesn't like to do tons of math in one sitting, but prefers short spurts of about 15 minutes, which takes up extra time in transitions. When doing homework, he'll do math while playing a game with friends on the computer or other things, so it's probably not his best work, but he's not getting angry about math homework as long as I'm reasonable.

 

- I'm willing to eliminate some of his Algebra problems if he's proving to me that he's "got it already" by working quickly and accurately. I have no pattern to this, but he knows he can request fewer problems and I'll consider it. It takes a few minutes for me to decide which problems to eliminate, but I try to observe the differences between different problems -- using the answer key if necessary. (A Math Relief assignment ranges from 20 to 60 problems.)

 

- When he's not getting math done, it's easier with Algebra for me to say, "Here's the book. It needs to be finished in 8th grade. You can decide whether you want it to last into the summer." You see, there are times he welcomes a break from algebra (as I expressed in my earlier post on this thread), and he's willing to accept the consequences of putting off his regular Algebra assignment & doing different math for the day.

 

- ETA: He does 2 pages of Kumon per day (free because I work there). He does it because he asked to start again & I had him make a commitment this time. It's not long & not hard, so he just has to do it some time during the day or night. Small, easier things can possibly be fit in every single day.

 

 

Just some of my ways of doing things. Not very structured, I know.

Julie

Edited January 12, 2010 by Julie in MN

[StaceyinLA]

I would like to look at it.

[Rebecca VA]

I'm with Stacy and Nissi! My math-strong daughter is going slowly through Foerster's. She does every single problem, but it takes her about three days to get through each lesson (there are about 60 problems per lesson). It's OK; I want her take as much time as she needs to absorb the material thoroughly.

 

We use Math Without Borders and have found it VERY helpful. I plan to use Mr. Chandler's Geometry and Algebra II materials as well when the time comes.

[G5052]

The algebra placement test is here on Ask Dr. Callahan: http://www.askdrcallahan.com/articles/algplacement.html. We found it a little confusing to use, but I sat nearby while he did it and it covered all of the areas that I'd expect a pre-algebra test to have. He got several of the exponent problems wrong, but that was it.

 

At this point we plan to do Jacob's Algebra at whatever pace it takes, and then LOF Algebra to review. Math and reading are subjects that they do almost every day even in summer, so this should work fine.