Now we have bullying problems and I actually used y'all's advice...

[LG Gone Wild]

My ds is in cub scouts. He is head and shoulders smaller than the other boys. There is a boy who has taken a dislike to my son. He just can't tolerate my very high strung, high energy boy. Over the course of the year, this boy has becoming increasingly aggressive towards my guy. There was a scuffle and shoving incident last night. The boy pulled off something from my son's uniform, they struggled over the item and then the boy shoved my son to the ground.

 

Of course I wasn't there when it happened!!! I had whined to the den leader about how tired I was and hungry. He said I could leave and come back, my son would be fine. He said to go down the road and get something to eat. I said cool and took off. I was gone 20 minutes which is when this thing happened. I came back, sat behind the boys and noticed a scrape on my son.

 

Now my son takes martial arts and he's a pretty good scrapper....in the ring. When it comes to street fighting, it is like I never spent a penny on martial arts. It's just his nature. He has no clue about a person's bad intentions or feelings. I tried not to be upset with my son for not smashing this kid's face in. I gently asked what he did after he was shoved to the ground. He said he just sat somewhere else. I asked why didn't he fight back afterall he fights all the time at the studio. Shucks, he likes fighting. He said he didn't know. I said okay but in the future, he may want to reconsider. There are only two options for him, do nothing and be beat upon or do something and save himself. All his training was for this purpose and this purpose only.

 

I was shaking upset. The den leader saw me and said we needed to talk. So I waited until the end of the meeting. Seemed like forever to me. I so wanted smack somebody. The other boy's mom wasn't there. She usually is but not that night.

 

I need to put in that this boy is mentally ill, not retarded, but ill. He has a lot of mental and emotional problems. He has a tendency to violence and is on medication. My son is annoying, nothing wrong with him such as Asperger's or some such, but annoying. He is just wired that way as that other boy is wired his way and they don't mix. I've seen him strike out at his mom. He doesn't tolerate kids very well. He is much more at ease with older kids and adults.

 

Oh, anyway, after the shoving incident, the den leader got involved and pulled the boy aside and had words with the boy. He made the boy apologize to my son. The boy then broke down in tears and disappeared. This is about the time I returned. I was in the parking lot (it was dark outside) and I was wondering why there were scouts wandering outside the meeting place in the dark. Turned out the den leader thought this boy had run away and everybody was looking for him. Luckily, they found him in the bathroom, crying.

 

Den leader and I talked. He told me the steps he took. I was satisfied with his response to the situation. I let him know that I understand this boy's difficulties. Still, I can't have my son in danger and that my son has my permission to take it to the mats to protect himself. I doubt that my son would ever do it but in case it did actually happen, it was with my blessing. Den leader understood. I also pointed out that this was just an escalation and not some random thing. He said he knew that and he has been trying to keep them separated. I also pointed out that this boy isn't getting annoyed with kids his own size, just my son who is at least 30lbs lighter. So while I know my son annoys this kid, this kid likes an easy target. My son has been told repeatedly to give this kid a lot of space but, you know, they do do scouts together. There is only so much space my son can give.

 

Then we talked to the boys. Channeling the boards, I let it be known to my son I was standing up for him. I let it be known to this other kid, not to lay hands on my boy. I must have made that point 10-15 times.

 

"B, I know at times you get upset and can't control your anger...still can't lay hands on my son."

 

"B, it's okay if you don't like my son. You are free to like and dislike whom you choose. Don't lay hands on my son."

 

"B, I understand your situation, don't lay hands on my son."

 

"You two will have to work together but you will not partner up. If you need a buddy to go to the bathroom, find somebody else. Don't lay hands on my boy."

 

And so forth. I was really calm and though I was angry and frightened for my son, I did my best to have pity for the boy. I was conversational but really firm about the laying of hands. I have to call the mom today. The den leader offered to talk to the mom (btw, she is the assistant den leader) but I said I will do it. So, that task needs to be completed.

 

I've continued to talk to my son. One, he has to recognize that he is in danger. This boy is friendly one minute and then snaps the next. He can't control himself, his mom can't control, and his medication can't control it. Stop following this kid around! He can only be around this kid if there is group of 5 and no less. He must view this kid like a rattlesnake. Tread lightly and watch out for the rattle.

 

Two, about self-defense. Use it. My son might get caught unaware again. It happens as we can't predict when we are going to get hit or shoved. If he gets knocked on the ground GET RIGHT BACK UP! For pete's sake, going the ground puts him in greater danger. My son said he was afraid. I said I know, real fighting is awful but sometimes it must be done. Anyway, he fights bigger kids all the time at the gym. My son said it was different plus he has all his gear on. I said that's true but that he isn't defenseless. He knows stuff that this kid doesn't know. Yes, fighting does hurt but what was the alternative, just to let this kid beat him up? That hurts as well. If my son did decide to fight back, I advised him to go for the gold. My son had made some comment that maybe he'll just punch the kid in the arm. I said no way. That wouldn't put the kid off and just make him angrier. I said he could always leg kick him (that really hurts, btw) and run. This boy can't out run my son. Whatever he does, do it for real and make it hurt. As they say in MMA, impose your will.

 

Well, that's my saga. Yes, there always is supervision but I can't prevent everything.

[JFSinIL]

Bear in mind, martial arts also teaches the kids to avoid fights whenever possible. True, you want your son to defend himself if in danger or being bullied. But if this other kid is a lot bigger than your son, and is not following sparring rules but just lamming into your son, can your son really fight back (yet)? I suspect the Scout powers-that-be need to make it mandatory that a parent of this kid (since he has problems) MUST attend each meeting. If no parent is there to be with the kid at all times - he can not attend, for both his and others safety.

 

 

I have a kid in martial arts, too. AND a son with disabilities. And have had kids in Scouts. So I have been on both sides of this sort of thing!

[dirty ethel rackham]

Bold mine.

 

Bear in mind, martial arts also teaches the kids to avoid fights whenever possible. True, you want your son to defend himself if in danger or being bullied. But if this other kid is a lot bigger than your son, and is not following sparring rules but just lamming into your son, can your son really fight back (yet)?

 

I totally agree here. My boys are in Karate and as brown belts, they are really starting to learn how to apply what they have learned - not just in a sparring situation, but real life situations. It takes a long time to get to that point.

 

I suspect the Scout powers-that-be need to make it mandatory that a parent of this kid (since he has problems) MUST attend each meeting. If no parent is there to be with the kid at all times - he can not attend, for both his and others safety.

 

 

I would definitely insist upon this. Also, if the parent is not willing to provide structure and discipline (not necessarily punishment, but redirection or removal) then this kid should not be attending.

[tinkgumby]

I'm involved in Cub Scouts, and we did have an instance where a boy was so physically over the line that he was asked to leave the pack. It is completely against Scout policy for a boy to feel in danger there, and if another boy can't follow those rules, there need to be consequences. It should never have to get to the point of your son having to fight back. I agree that there should probably be parents on hand at all times, but even so, it may come down to one or the other boy needing to find a different pack to attend. :sad:

[tinkgumby]

Here's the official BSA word on it:

 

"Unit Responsibilities

 

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

 

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

[Catwoman]

It sounds like you're doing everything right in this situation, and there's still a problem.

 

Honestly, I don't think this boy should be allowed at scout meetings unless his mom is there -- and she does a proper job of supervising him.

 

This kid may have psychological/anger management issues, but he's also no fool -- he picks his targets wisely (much smaller boy only!) so he's not as "explosive" as people may think he is; otherwise, he'd lash out at anyone within range whenever he got a little upset. Clearly, that's not the case here, and it seems like this boy is a big bully, plain and simple, and if he can't control his behavior (and his mom can't, either,) he should be removed from the scout troop.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I feel badly for the mom, if she's truly doing everything possible to help her son, but there's no reason why your son should have to deal with aggressive behavior. As you mentioned in your post, there's no need for the boys to like each other, or to partner up for activities, but there's also no excuse for violence or other nastiness.

 

It does seem, though, like the scout leader is trying his best to help, and he realizes that the problem exists, so at least that's a start. The boy's mom knows her son has issues, too, so that's another plus.

 

Could you sit down with both the other mom and the scout leader and try to come up with a solution? I would insist that, if the mom and scout leader are unable to keep this boy under control, the boy be required to leave the troop until such time that he is able to behave properly.

 

One last question -- is your son good friends with the other boys in the troop? What about the other boy -- it sounds like he's only mean to your son, but is he particularly friendly with the other kids? I only ask this because, at some point, one of the boys will probably have to leave the group (unless this boy makes a sudden and miraculous change.) You may want to ask your son how important scouting is to your him, so you'll know what action to take if the den leader and other mom aren't of help to you.

 

Good luck with this!

 

Cat

Edited April 15, 2009 by Catwoman
typos

[unsinkable]

Is "lay hands on" a regional phrase? B/c around here, I'd wonder if a child would even know what it means?

[Pink Fairy]

Wow! It seems like everyone--meaning you and the scout leader--handled this soooo well. Keeping my fingers crossed that you have the same experience with the boy's mom. :grouphug:

[Catwoman]

Is "lay hands on" a regional phrase? B/c around here, I'd wonder if a child would even know what it means?

 

I noticed that, too. Where we live, "NO HITTING!" would be better understood, but I assumed the "lay hands on" phrase must be common where LG Gone Wild lives.

[LG Gone Wild]

Bear in mind, martial arts also teaches the kids to avoid fights whenever possible. True, you want your son to defend himself if in danger or being bullied. But if this other kid is a lot bigger than your son, and is not following sparring rules but just lamming into your son, can your son really fight back (yet)? I suspect the Scout powers-that-be need to make it mandatory that a parent of this kid (since he has problems) MUST attend each meeting. If no parent is there to be with the kid at all times - he can not attend, for both his and others safety.

 

 

I have a kid in martial arts, too. AND a son with disabilities. And have had kids in Scouts. So I have been on both sides of this sort of thing!

 

My son has the skills, not the will. In a way, it's a nice trait in a kid but not particularly helpful in an emergency.

 

The boy doesn't go out of his way to pick on JP. No teasing or shaking up for money or the like.

[LG Gone Wild]

Remember that Scouts do not allow this kind of behavior. First instance of bullying, Cubmaster talk to the Scout. Second, CM talk to the parent, third time, Scout is gone. We had to remove a Scout this year--it was tough and it tore our troop apart. However, we're a much stronger troop now for it. Not every boy can be in Scouts. So be it.

 

 

That is the hard part. Especially since the mom is the assistant den leader. She's great and she's great with her son. It's not the case of the leader being the one to have the unruly child but he has serious problems.

[LG Gone Wild]

It sounds like you're doing everything right in this situation, and there's still a problem.

 

Honestly, I don't think this boy should be allowed at scout meetings unless his mom is there -- and she does a proper job of supervising him.

 

This kid may have psychological/anger management issues, but he's also no fool -- he picks his targets wisely (much smaller boy only!) so he's not as "explosive" as people may think he is; otherwise, he'd lash out at anyone within range whenever he got a little upset. Clearly, that's not the case here, and it seems like this boy is a big bully, plain and simple, and if he can't control his behavior (and his mom can't, either,) he should be removed from the scout troop.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I feel badly for the mom, if she's truly doing everything possible to help her son, but there's no reason why your son should have to deal with aggressive behavior. As you mentioned in your post, there's no need for the boys to like each other, or to partner up for activities, but there's also no excuse for violence or other nastiness.

 

It does seem, though, like the scout leader is trying his best to help, and he realizes that the problem exists, so at least that's a start. The boy's mom knows her son has issues, too, so that's another plus.

 

Could you sit down with both the other mom and the scout leader and try to come up with a solution? I would insist that, if the mom and scout leader are unable to keep this boy under control, the boy be required to leave the troop until such time that he is able to behave properly.

 

One last question -- is your son good friends with the other boys in the troop? What about the other boy -- it sounds like he's only mean to your son, but is he particularly friendly with the other kids? I only ask this because, at some point, one of the boys will probably have to leave the group (unless this boy makes a sudden and miraculous change.) You may want to ask your son how important scouting is to your him, so you'll know what action to take if the den leader and other mom aren't of help to you.

 

Good luck with this!

 

Cat

 

If this boy had the power to change himself, he would. I saw remorse in him. He is clearly mentally ill. He wants to be like other boys. He does not want to have the problems that he does have. I don't know that he would ever be able to be independent. The mom is a saint.

 

Scouting is life to both of them.

 

It was one of those convergence of circumstances. The mom wasn't there and she always is. I happen to step out briefly and I am always there, too.

[Catwoman]

If this boy had the power to change himself, he would. I saw remorse in him. He is clearly mentally ill. He wants to be like other boys. He does not want to have the problems that he does have. I don't know that he would ever be able to be independent. The mom is a saint.

 

Scouting is life to both of them.

 

It was one of those convergence of circumstances. The mom wasn't there and she always is. I happen to step out briefly and I am always there, too.

 

This is so sad.

 

The only solution I can think of, is that you speak with the other mom about your concerns and suggest that one or both of you be present at all times when the boys are together. It would really be best if you were both there, as she could correct her own son, and you could watch out for yours.

 

I hope you're able to find a way for this to work out for both boys, but of course, my main concern would be for your son's safety. I still find it a bit odd that the boy only picks on your (smaller) son, and not on any of the boys his own size. He may be mentally ill, but he's obviously sane enough to know how to choose a victim.

 

Cat

Edited April 16, 2009 by Catwoman
typo

[Tree House Academy]

We have so BTDT! Down to the letter - large kid very emotionally unstable and my hyper, wired kid who just didn't mix and it came to blows. They were also 9. Ours ended in the kid telling my son he would "die tomorrow" on the playground, the school doing NOTHING about it and blowing it off, and me finally pulling out my older to homeschool. I witnessed the boys coming out of class one day and the child waited on my son and punched him. My son kept walking and paid no attention, but I actually told the child to stop hitting my son or we would see the principal. He knew he had been caught, so he then told his grandmother (his guardian) that I called him a "stupid fat bastard." Of course, I didn't and there was a hall full of people to prove I didn't, but the whole thing left a BAD taste in my mouth and is 60% of the reason my older son is now home with us.

 

ETA: The bully my son had also broke down crying when confronted. It was part of the "game" for him.

[Tree House Academy]

This boy is friendly one minute and then snaps the next. He can't control himself, his mom can't control, and his medication can't control it. Stop following this kid around! He can only be around this kid if there is group of 5 and no less. He must view this kid like a rattlesnake. Tread lightly and watch out for the rattle.

 

This also is just an exact mirror of what my son went through with his bully. The child was nice one minute and my son WANTED to befriend him. He desperately desired for everyone to like him and accept him and the fact that this kid did not drove him insane. How weird. Is this just bully 101 or something. :glare:

[Hillary in KS]

It sounds like you handled it very well. Good job!

 

Have you thought about talking to your ds' martial arts teacher? He may have some advice for you, and would definitely be able to discuss with your son what happened and what to do if he's in a similar situation.

[Spy Car]

I noticed that, too. Where we live, "NO HITTING!" would be better understood, but I assumed the "lay hands on" phrase must be common where LG Gone Wild lives.

 

I run to see where LG's from, because that phrase is well understood here....let's see...Southern California :D

 

Perfect.

 

Bill

[LG Gone Wild]

She tends to talk a bit but I'll summarize. She had already talked to her son and the den leader so she was expecting my call. She told me that this is a problem she is continuing to work on with her son (I knew that). She apologized for not being there with her son and in the future, if she can't be somewhere to monitor him, her son will just have to miss out. They are going to rework his medication and when the therapist gets back from spring break, they are going to cover this.

 

I told her I wasn't looking for a pound of flesh but the kids are going on a campout this weekend, I won't be there, and I want to know that my son will be safe. She emphasized that her son will be closely watched by her and that she didn't want me to fear for the safety of my ds. She and the den leader will extra vigilant. I reiterated the size difference and that this last thing was not a case of my son annoying hers. The boy fiddled with my son's uniform (everybody was), my son tried to get his patch back, and then her son shoved mine. She said she understood that and she wasn't making excuses for it. Her son knew he was wrong and asked to have his medication changed.

 

sooooooooooo...we'll just have to keep an eye on it, I guess. I am debating of whether my son will go on this campout. It is an important one but....well, you can understand my hesitation. The boys have been on campouts together without me and it was fine. I'll have to think about it.

[Pajama Mama]

Have you thought about talking to your ds' martial arts teacher? He may have some advice for you, and would definitely be able to discuss with your son what happened and what to do if he's in a similar situation.

 

I agree about speaking with the karate instructor. My ds is in karate but told to only use it when absolutely necessary. So he lets kids pick on him because they aren't hitting him. I don't want him hitting them but I want him to stand up for himself. He had one friend who was extremely aggressive while "playing"-wrestling, pushing him down, grabbing his neck, etc. He hurt my ds the last time. I told my son, if he does that again-punch him. He did. The kid left him alone. That kid's lucky because my ds could have broken his nose of something. He defended himself and then stopped. Maybe your son's instructor should explain that he CAN use karate if someone is hurting him.

[tinkgumby]

I'm really glad to hear the mom is being responsive instead of defensive and is willing to work with you on this. That helps a LOT.

 

I also just found out at a Council trainers meeting tonight that there's a new e-Learning course from BSA about bullying! How timely!