Let's talk about "lies"

[BMW]

There's not much that gets me as riled up as a child of mine looking me in the eyes and lying. Sometimes I've come here and asked "what would you do..." etc. This time I thought I'd bring it up for discussion and not just "an incident".

 

To me, there are different types of lies... and I get stumped what to do about it.

 

There's the child who exaggerates and makes a sibling look bad to get the other into trouble or get the other out of favor with parents/relatives...

 

There's the time the child didn't mean to, but you know the child did it, but the child doesn't want to say he did it.

 

There's the time the child makes up a complete falsehood... and it reminds you of something Bill Cosby would joke about...

 

Sometimes a child will lie that the homework was done and it was not...

 

Sometimes two children tell the opposite and you can't tell who is telling the truth...

 

Sometimes a certain child might lie because he/she is afraid of being in trouble (not that YOU did anything wrong to cause the fear, it just is that the child is afraid of being in trouble... maybe the way a different parent or teacher treated the child at some time).

 

Sometimes the child doesn't mean to be lying... I have one who has a totally odd perspective and has no motive to lie, but "feels and sees" differently (aspergers). Sometimes the child isn't in touch with the reality as others see it. To me, this takes patience and explaining and more grace.

 

Well... how do you see lying? How do you deal with it overall?

 

Thanks, I hope we can get a lengthy, varied discussion going... surely you all have opinions and ways of dealing with this :)

 

Bee

[Haiku]

I think I know my children well, so I go with my gut. One of my children was a horrible liar upon arrival in our family (adoption) and told all kinds of ridiculous, crazy lies. I made sure not to make a big deal out of it; I would just say, "That doesn't sound like the truth," and proceed to do whatever was necessary given what the truth actually was.

 

For my kids' smaller lies ("Yes, I cleaned up my art supplies" when half of them are still on the table) I "remind" my kids that if I check and find out differently that they will not be so happy with the outcome.

 

For a child who lies to avoid being in trouble (and my kids have done this on occasion, because we do employ unpleasant consequences in our home), I remind the child that lying leads to me being less likely to believe them in the future. I don't punish "extra" for the lying, because then there is no incentive to eventually come clean.

 

When two kids tell me differing stories, I make it their responsibility to come to agreement on what happened. I have them sit at the dining room table until they have worked out "the truth."

 

When I kid tells a crazy story that's a lie, I usually just say something like, "Oh, that sounds very interesting." I clearly remember telling my dad a whopper of a story once just because I wanted him to think I was interesting. (I guess I was feeling boring? I don't know.) He smiled kindly at me and said, "Wow, if only life really were that interesting." Sometimes kids just want to be noticed and don't know how to ask for it.

 

In general, I try to impress upon my kids that lying leads other people not to trust them and that it affects the privileges we deal out. My oldest child, who is 14, has taken a long, long, long time to realize this, and I think that sometimes it's still fuzzy for her. I don't usually punish for lying because I think that it short-circuits the opportunity to really discuss the issue of lying.

 

I think lying is fairly normal, and I don't always see it as a huge character failure. I think kids lie because they don't want to be in trouble, and I think kids lie because they don't want to admit to themselves or others that they have made mistakes or fallen short of expectations. I think learning to handle these things honestly is part of maturing.

 

Also, I'm not always perfectly honest, either. My oldest dd wanted to stay home from school on my other dd's birthday because we were doing something that the birthday dd had chosen to do that was only open during the time oldest dd was in school. I let her stay home and told the school she was sick. Yep, I lied, but calling to say "Dd is staying home for her sister's birthday event" would have been an unexcused absence, and as long as dd makes up her work, no one is being hurt by the lie. Is it ok to lie? Not really. Is it a huge character flaw that I said something to the school that really doesn't affect them one way or another? No, I don't think so.

 

Tara

[the floating cottage]

I personally think it is a heart issue. It is one that we take very seriously in our household, but done in private. It seems sometimes you can't get to the bottom of the issue in the heat of the moment or around others. The consequences would vary depending on age and if it was out right manipulation. My goal is to figure out the real why and try to show the child why that will not get what you really want. Most of the time natural consequences work best as the discipline. We also explain once the trust is broken it is very hard to regain. Especially with our teens.

[yslek]

I don't have any good answers; this is something that really gets to me, too.

 

However, I wanted to share what NOT to do when dc lie! (This is based on dh's experience growing up, btw.)

 

When you know that one of your children has lied, but you can't tell which one it is (or one of the children has done something wrong, and none of them confesses--still a kind of lying) do not line them up outisde your room, calling them in and spanking them one at a time continuously until one of them confesses. :001_huh:

 

Dh and his older bro would bribe their younger bro to confess and take the punishment. Later, when dh and older bro were no longer part of this (because they were teenagers and overpowered their mother when she tried!) the younger bro would bribe the youngest sis to accept the blame. The end result was that dear MIL (who in spite of the above-described horror is usually very sweet and loving) very rarely if ever found out the truth, but thought she did. I think she's still largely in the dark about what really happened, even though all of the dc are grown & married now. :tongue_smilie:

[katemary63]

I can tell you too, what NOT to do when a child lies. I learned the hard way. For some reason, probably based in my childhood, I had a royal fit when ever my older kids lied to me. I just couldn't take it. I took it personally and went nuts.

 

Later I read in a parenting book that an over reaction like mine would actually train a child to lie more. As the author explained it, a child might lie and then when the parent goes balistic, feel trapped in their lie and scared to come clean. This is exactly what happened with my son untill I got a clue. He became a better liar because of my immature reaction.

 

I totally agree with the poster who says, " That doesn't sound like the truth to me." And then walks away. That's how I handled it with my second 2. I have no idea why I over reacted so much about lying with the older ones....it was dumb and now, seems so silly.

[Alice]

I have told my son that if he tells the truth it will always be better. So, if he tells me the truth about something his punishment is less than if he lies. We have talked about how lying is always wrong. When he tells me the truth I make sure to thank him for his honesty and make a point of praising that, even if there are going to be consequences.

 

On a few occasions, he has lied about something that I'm pretty sure he is lying but I don't know for sure. For those times, I've said something like :" I'm going to trust that you are telling me the truth because you know that it's not ok to lie." And then I've dropped it. A few times he's come back with a change in story. Then I've thanked him for telling me the truth.

 

I don't really count tall tales and stories as lying, at my kids' age. So much of the fantasy world is real to them. So in those cases I just smile and tell them it's a great story but I wouldn't ever call that a lie.

[BMW]

So, I can see not punishing a lie to encourage them to tell the truth... meaning, if they tell the truth they don't get in trouble for lying to begin with and then you know the truth...

 

BUT, I think there needs to be the exception when it comes to malicious lying... If you broke the vase and then came clean... okay... you can have a consequence of paying for it. But, if you lie on purpose to hurt another person (you make up a story about a sibling hurting you, then get caught in the lie - the parent gets to the bottom of it and the child was lying to hurt another person)... to me, that is deserving of more of a punishment... don't you think?? What if you did hurt the other person or got them into trouble and they were innocent? That is just.not.nice!!

 

 

I totally like floating cottage's statements of finding out why, if you can, the child lied... and dealing with the heart issue...

[bkpan]

I have told my son that if he tells the truth it will always be better. So, if he tells me the truth about something his punishment is less than if he lies. We have talked about how lying is always wrong. When he tells me the truth I make sure to thank him for his honesty and make a point of praising that, even if there are going to be consequences.

 

On a few occasions, he has lied about something that I'm pretty sure he is lying but I don't know for sure. For those times, I've said something like :" I'm going to trust that you are telling me the truth because you know that it's not ok to lie." And then I've dropped it. A few times he's come back with a change in story. Then I've thanked him for telling me the truth.

 

I don't really count tall tales and stories as lying, at my kids' age. So much of the fantasy world is real to them. So in those cases I just smile and tell them it's a great story but I wouldn't ever call that a lie.

 

Sorry about the off-topic, but

congratulations, Alice! I just noticed youre expecting in your sig line (maybe you made a more formal announcement I missed), anyway..

 

just wanted to say :thumbup:

 

Kim

[wide eyes & laughter]

"...swears to his own hurt (getting into trouble, etc) and does not change." We would talk about the characteristics of the righteous man and then pose the question to dc "you want to be righteous, right?"

 

 

Psalm 15 (New American Standard Bible)

 

Description of a Citizen of Zion.

 

A Psalm of David.

 

1O LORD, who may abide in Your tent?

Who may dwell on Your holy hill?

2He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,

And speaks truth in his heart.

3He does not slander with his tongue,

Nor does evil to his neighbor,

Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;

4In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,

But who honors those who fear the LORD;

He swears to his own hurt and does not change;

5He does not put out his money at interest,

Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent

He who does these things will never be shaken.

[Haiku]

I think there needs to be the exception when it comes to malicious lying

 

I guess it would depend on whether it's a habit or not. I don't expect my kids to always be perfectly nice (not saying you do, either), so if one of them occasionally lied maliciously, I would be much more inclined to say something like, "Wow, that's really not like you to do something like that. I guess you forgot for a while that lying can really hurt other people."

 

If it became a pattern, then I would have to re-evaluate, I guess. Or if it were an older child who lied about something very serious, I'd have to think about what to do. I guess if my older kid were out drinking or involved in some sort of stunt that hurt another teen and lied about it, to me, the issue would be more about why the child was involved in this and less about why the child lied. I guess I feel like I know why kids lie, so the bigger issue is making sure that the child isn't behaving in ways they need to lie about in the first place.

 

Tara

[Hot Lava Mama]

I have told my kids (who don't lie very often) that it is going to be VERY important in THEIR life for people to be able to trust them. Seems to have worked.

[Jean in Newcastle]

When my dd started to become a habitual liar I had to stop asking her any direct questions. I told her that I did not want to put her in the position of lying. I would find out the truth in another way or just go with my gut. Of course it was not ideal. My dd would cry and tell me that I had it "wrong" and she would try to give me her story (ie. lie) at first but when I quietly refused to listen, she did start to tell me later what the truth really was. She is starting to tell me the truth more often but I still avoid putting her in the position of lying - esp. if she did something wrong because I want to stop in her the reflex of lying. As she starts to volunteer the truth more, I am telling her that she is starting to build up my trust - and that's the truth!

[Peela]

Have you ever lied? Do you ever exaggerate to make a story sound better? Do you lie through omission? Are you completely honest with yourself about it? have you ever done it in front of your kids?

I lie, at times, and I expect my kids to, because it is a part of human nature. I have even seen a study which said the most intelligent kids will lie more. Sometimes it's even appropriate to lie- or to be less than completely honest- to be polite or to not hurt someone's feelings.

 

However, I also have a relationship with my kids that is full of trust. The way to deal with lying is for everyone to see the cost of it, the price one pays. It can be loss of trust with a parent or a friend. It can be a consequence that a parent gives a child. It can be learning that lying makes life more complicated and painful than just telling the truth in the first place.

But mostly I think we function through trust and when a child lies to me, I lose my trust in him or her, and the natural consequence of that is whatever I feel to do next. If he steals my money, I move where I keep it, and sit down and talk to him about it, so he knows he didn't get away with it. If he admits it, we are way ahead of when he doesn't, and often the talking, the remorse- and repaying the money- is all thats needed to heal the situation and restore trust. I dont, and have never felt the need to, do punishment on top.

I have never really come from a moral position of "you musn't lie ever" because I would be a hypocrite to do that- I tell lies, I withhold information from my husband at times (like how much something cost me- if he doesnt ask me directly), I exaggerate. But I come from the persepctive that lying in ways that hurts people and breaks trust just doesnt work, and I dont lie to my kids and I make a point of telling the truth at times even when its uncomfortable to do so.

In other words, I am not absolute about it, I accept that its human to lie- and we deal with it on an issue by issue basis. It has come up several times with my son, and it was a Big Deal each time. All life stopped until he confessed, felt remorse and trust was restored. And sometimes that took some work. But once it was done, it was forgiven totally (even forgiven secretly before he confessed).

I think the best insurance against lying is to try and be honest yourself- even about your lying. It makes it a safer environment for a child to confess. And then help the child to see the cost of the lying- the cost to himself of having the people in his life, that he loves, not be able to trust him.