Logic Stage history - finding connections is not happening

[inashoe]

I know, I'm sorry, we have had so many Logic Stage history (LSH) posts and here I go again. I am just very dissatisfied with how History is going this year. It no longer holds and grabs my son's attention as it did in grammar stage.

 

WTM starts off the LSH chapter with a discussion of the student finding connections. I quote : "In history he'll find connections between world events. Instead of simply reading the story of Rome's fall, the fifth grader will look at what happened before that fall - the events that led to the empire's destruction. ... What happened ? ... In logic stage, history changes from a set of stories into one long, sequential story filled with cause and effect. "

 

My son would love this - if it were a reality. He has an inquiring mind, loves to asks questions, and discuss topics in depth. He would relish the opportunity to discuss the cause and effect of historical events, but this is not happening.

 

We are using Kingfisher as our spine - for outlining and putting together the timeline, and honestly, there is so little content, the most briefest of facts that there is no way ds is going to make any of these "connections". He obviously drags himself through history and finds it incredibly hard to decide on what to put on his timeline, copies the spelling all wrong, scrawly handwriting, and Mr Writing Phobic focuses on using as few words as possible.

 

ds is very lacking in his writing skills. We have just started WWE workbook 2 and IEW's Ancient History-Based Writing Lessons. His spelling is atrocious, and he has v. little background in copywork / dictation / outlining / writing skills. I am hoping to address these this year, and feel I should focus on this and not worry about "making connections in history" - as much as I know he would love it and it would help him enjoy history more.

 

Do any of you feel that what you are doing in LSH is helping your student to find these connections ?

[JennW in SoCal]

I think the unplanned aspects of our LSH (should we pronounce it lash? lish? lush?!) worked far more for helping my kids make connections than any of my planned lessons using Kingfisher. I read out loud quite a bit during those years, with both kids, and we watched lots of documentaries and listened to NPR all the time in the car. And while we were reading or watching something, I'd stop things to explain some contextual information, or pull out a globe, or a map (except when driving the car, or course). And we talked about everything, with me at first modeling the connections, and them later making more of them for themselves.

 

I read aloud historical fiction and literature, myths and epics from around the world. I'd have them write the occasional summary or even do dictation from these readings. If there was something interesting on NOVA, I'd go to that website and scour the teacher's corner for lesson ideas. Kingfisher is great for looking into a period and seeing what all is going on at the same time -- it's a nice "just the facts" kind of resource. But the real learning -- in my experience -- came from other material.

 

So, I'd focus on the writing skills and let history primarily be good reading material. Let his interests guide you. I'm assuming you've already done Story of the World? I found it to be perfect for narrations at this age for my late blooming writer -- not too much information, and as the chapters are so short the exercise of reading and writing doesn't drag on forever.

 

Does that help

[LanaTron]

WTM starts off the LSH chapter with a discussion of the student finding connections. I quote : "In history he'll find connections between world events. Instead of simply reading the story of Rome's fall, the fifth grader will look at what happened before that fall - the events that led to the empire's destruction. ... What happened ? ... In logic stage, history changes from a set of stories into one long, sequential story filled with cause and effect. "

 

IMO, some of that is just going to happen when their brains are ready for it. Not all 10 yos or 5th graders have logic stage ways of thinking just yet.

 

I say do more of this:

My son would love this - if it were a reality. He has an inquiring mind, loves to asks questions, and discuss topics in depth. He would relish the opportunity to discuss the cause and effect of historical events, but this is not happening.

 

and less of this:

 

We are using Kingfisher as our spine - for outlining and putting together the timeline, and honestly, there is so little content, the most briefest of facts that there is no way ds is going to make any of these "connections". He obviously drags himself through history and finds it incredibly hard to decide on what to put on his timeline, copies the spelling all wrong, scrawly handwriting, and Mr Writing Phobic focuses on using as few words as possible.

 

Since you are wanting to focus on his writing skills, do that with the materials you mentioned, and let history be simple and fun for him. It's okay to just read, ask questions, and discuss with you or another adult. He will gradually get to where he can do the outlining and timeline stuff (which, BTW was too much for my ds in 5th grade, but is fine for him now in 7th).

[LanaTron]

LSH--isn't that the hormone that gets the egg released from the ovary? ;-)

[Peela]

You're using KHE for your history spine and wondering why he is not enthralled? My kids do not enjoy that book either.

What brings history alive for us are historical fiction, and books like The Story of Rome, Story of Greece, and other books related to the topic we are studying. Books that are more like SOTW, but at a higher level, or more in depth. You don't even need just one spine- its hard to find a decent one for the whole year at the Logic stage level. I used several for last year's ancients. I think its time not to worry so much about doing it the TWM way too much,and its flexible anyway, and look for what will bring it alive. We just did a term of an Island Story (British history) as well as reading Robin Hood and King Arthur. How could a kid not be happy with that :)

When a kid is engaged and interested, he will make connections. My kids both read different King Arthur books independently, and we read Robin Hood together, and Island Story together. Plenty of fuel for discussions and making connections. And we will go on to more in depth medieval this coming year using Ambleside year 7- this was just the taster.

Even if part of history is boring- outlining KHE if necessary, although its a terrible obok to outline- adding in lots of extra books brings it alive. We still read aloud in Logic Stage- not everything, but some things- because it naturally makes discussions happen, and it gives us comon ground for discussion- and movies, unrelated books etc. Its amazing how often things we are reading in history will turn up somewhere else in our lives.

I would keep the writing issues separate. Plenty of kids can't keep up with WTM standards. My 13yo son will be doing IEW Medieval Writing lessons this coming year and I am not sure he will manage much else. But he will read a LOT of books,which is his strength, and he will tell me about what he reads- not all of it, but we will touch base regularly.

My reluctant writer would be so far behind in school if I kept his work back to the level at which he can write. Instead, he is very advanced in some areas because we always separated writing from eveything else- grammar, spelling, history- we would do a lot orally. And he likes everything we do that doesn't involve writing :) He still writes of course.

Timelines are absolutely deathly boring to my kids. I make it as easy as possible for them- hand them the figures, tell them what to put on the timeline- whatever, to make it go as quickly as possible. I also have a great world timeline, premade, on our toilet wall.

So, I capitalise on my kids' strengths and the parts they enjoy- like reading great books, reading together, having discussions-and try and minimise the painful parts (timelines, too many outlines, too much writing for ds). That way history stays alive for us- and it is my favourite subject, so I guess thats why I do it. If I didnt like it, I might buy them a textbook and just get them to do it.

[laughing lioness]

In agreement with the others. I'd focus more on the mechanics and skills of writing, do more read-alouds and historical fiction. Jenn had some awesome ideas and I'd add in SOTW on CD.

I am teaching poetry to jr and sr highers and we still have some kids in there who aren't making connections. They are clearly in the concrete stage- metaphor totally eludes them. Every child progresses at their own rate and that is o.k.- and a great benefit of homeschooling.

The connections will come:)

[PeterPan]

LSH--isn't that the hormone that gets the egg released from the ovary? ;-)

 

That's what I was thinking. But then it ought to be BSH (brain stimulating hormone) which ends up sounding like something else, oops. ;)

 

In any case, he's only 10!!!!!!!!!!!! He's just not making connections yet and it certainly doesn't sound like he's enjoying it. My dd started making connections like that last year, but it's when she's reading FICTION, not fact books. She meets the characters and gets interested and wonders who else was living then, who was related to whom, blah blah... If your ds is doing shoddy work (sorry, btdt), he's probably not enjoying the approach. I've been sweating history the last few days myself because I'm realizing that the WTM approach of outline and write paragraphs just ISN'T going to cut it for dd. She's way too into hands-on, living it, etc.! I still want her to write, but it needs more pizzaz, kwim? So I'm investigating Time Travelers, which might or might not help your problem. (includes writing, but through more dynamic means like news articles, etc.)

 

All that was to say I agree with the others that making connections isn't something you force and might happen more naturally if you give it another year. You could GENTLY try to work toward discussing connections, but I think it will happen more readily with a little more maturity and more interesting material. No interest to find connections if the material is boring, kwim?

[njosanders]

documentaries or videos to watch?? Any certain list?

Thanks, Julie

[JennW in SoCal]

NPR is National Public Radio, and it is what I often have on in the car while driving (which we do too much of here in Southern California). The afternoon news program, "All Things Considered" often has interesting stories aside from current news. You can find them on-line, too, at NPR.org, and many of these stories are available as downloads or podcasts. Apparently the BBC also has some great radio broadcasts available as downloads.

 

For documentaries, I just start searching the on-line library catalog, putting in a keyword and specifying a video or DVD format. Netflix also has many good documentaries, but their search engine isn't designed for exact searches. I keep up with PBS's programming, and Discovery and the History channel just to see if there is anything of interest. Their websites often have lesson plans (of vary degrees of usefulness) and additional links.

 

I think my kids made lots of history connections through their fascination of engineering and science shows, such as the series Building Big. The topic of one of these shows might be about building bridges, for instance, but the show goes back to the Roman Empire, or to China, and some little piece of historical context snaps forever into place.

[Kimber]

What's helping my daughter, who is also 10, is that we make the connections together. I'm trying to read about some of the same material that she is reading in history. I point out the connections for her. And almost inevitably, when I point out something, she usually has an "aha" moment and then verbally tells me how what I said fits in with what she's read in some book from her assigned readings. And it's usually information that I hadn't read about. So basically we're doing it together, and it has absolutely nothing to do with her writing assignments.

 

I believe that some people still count 5th grade as a grammar stage rather than logic. (Just don't ask me who those people are, I haven't a clue. :) )

 

Hth,

 

Kimberly

[cajun.classical]

You've gotten lots of great advice. I'm agreeing that you've got a couple of different issues here.

 

1. You can't force the "connections." This is a developmental issue. The light bulb will come on when it is ready, and trying to force the issue only frustrates everyone.

 

2. KHE isn't the kind of book that will foster connections. That comes from more narrative accounts: biographies, narrative spines, historical fiction. For my logic stage ds, those lightbulb moments come when he has been reading on his own. I'll read something aloud, and he'll make a connection to something he has read elsewhere.

 

I don't think SWB expects the connections to come from KHE, but rather from the other history reading (both secondary and primary) that she recommends.

 

Be patient. The difference between my ds12 and dd 9.5 is tremendous. He is all about connections and analysis and she is just not there yet. She's bright; she's engaged by the material; she reads. She just doesn't think at that level yet. But it's coming.

 

Try not to be discouraged.

[inashoe]

Thanks for the responses.

 

We did SOTW which mentioned the connections from time to time. He loved vol 4 because there was so much relevant to today's world, why we are where we are and why things are happening that he hears about in the news. he loved discussing the why, or cause and effect,

I think the text is the problem. Peela, I love your comment. Ok, duh, KHE is too scant.

 

ds has just mentioned that he doesn't like the way KHE jumps around, because it covers history strictly chronologically.

I see that History Odyssey schedules things so that there is no jumping around.

 

What extra readings do you do ?

I see WTM lists some books by Suzanne Strass Art - do these give extra detail, add more info than we had in SOTW ?

[cajun.classical]

What extra readings do you do ?

I see WTM lists some books by Suzanne Strass Art - do these give extra detail, add more info than we had in SOTW ?

 

For a ten year old, you could add in the Famous Men series or the Guerber history series. Memoria Press has some great workbooks that go with the Famous Men series that would challenge a 10 year old. Great questions, map work, activities, etc. It's a biographical approach. You could still use KHE for an overview and use Famous Men to flush out the topic.

[mcconnellboys]

Kingfisher is just meant to be a starting point to introduce the topic for the week's study. You would need to add in reading regarding some of the topics introduced in Kingfisher in order to know enough about the subject to begin to make connections.

[H.S. Burrow]

documentaries or videos to watch?? Any certain list?

Thanks, Julie

 

 

My son, 10, loves documentaries on ancient civilizations. Every morning I look through the on-screen cable guide and see what's on the History Channel, History International, the Biography Channel and National Geographic. We have a DVR, so I select the ones that will be of interest and we watch them together. Before Christmas we watched Warrior Queen Boudica and he made several connections to other shows we had watched about Rome and to SOTW and Our Island Story. Cities of the Underworld has some really cool episodes about ancient cities.

I see him making connections all the time to what he is reading. Some of the connections he makes are to references in some of the fiction books he reads. Some are to SOTW or the Kingfisher. He really prefers the DK Eyewitness books and we regularly check them out of the library.

He has even made connections to Stargate Atlantis....I wish I could remember what exactly it was, but DH & I were dumbfounded! :lol:

[WTMindy]

Logic stage history is one of the few areas where I have "broken" with WTM. I think to go from SOTW (which we LOVED) to outlining KF would kill all of the love of history that we have worked to kindle over the years. I also do not think that logic stage thinking happens automatically because you enter the second history rotation. It is a process and a transition (which they do say in WTM) and it takes time. I think my dd is a pretty advanced 6th grader and she is really just starting to see the big picture and make the kind of connections they are talking about. We use TOG and for us it has been a great transition from SOTW to the next phase. We still do a lot of hands-on projects and a lot of reading out loud, but the questions that they ask in the dialectic level are good to start the ball rolling. If my dd doesn't get the connections or see the big picture, we just talk about it and move on.

[Peela]

Just another comment- although SWB strongly prefers a strictly chronological approach to history, its not going to make or break a child if they do it differently. After jumping around so much with 4 years of SOTW, I wanted to stay a little longer in each place in the next round through, so we do it a bit differently and not strictly chronologically. We spent 10 weeks each on Greek and Roman history last year, with Story of the Greeks/Romans. The connections still come this way, I find, and I prefer it, but I feel they come because of all the other reading they do.

And I didnt realise your son was only 10. It takes time and I didnt feel my bright, older child was really in the logic stage, thinking like "logic stage" kids are supposed to, till she was 13. My younger child was a bit earlier because he is more of a thinker. Its certainly not something you can force.

[laughing lioness]

To find good historical readers check out lists from Sonlight, Beautiful Feet and Bethleham Books. As someone already mentioned MP's Famous Men series is excellent. Genevieve Fosters books, "George Washington's World" (and others) are too.

[WTMCassandra]

My son would love this - if it were a reality. He has an inquiring mind, loves to asks questions, and discuss topics in depth. He would relish the opportunity to discuss the cause and effect of historical events, but this is not happening.

 

. . . He obviously drags himself through history and finds it incredibly hard to decide on what to put on his timeline, copies the spelling all wrong, scrawly handwriting, and Mr Writing Phobic focuses on using as few words as possible.

 

ds is very lacking in his writing skills. . . . I am hoping to address these this year, and feel I should focus on this and not worry about "making connections in history" - as much as I know he would love it and it would help him enjoy history more.

 

Do any of you feel that what you are doing in LSH is helping your student to find these connections ?

 

What I get from your post is that you have two goals: (1) Have him start making those connections and (2) Improve his writing skills. I think you should keep these two goals separate.

 

I remember SWB speaking at length that sometimes there is a huge gap between being a child's ability to verbalize a thought and actually getting it on paper. The context was younger children, but if your student is writing-phobic, perhaps the effect is lingering ; ).

 

Why not have him start making those connections with you VERBALLY, no writing required?! My children read some of their history books independently now, but they come back and do a narration for me. Then, we additionally do reading aloud together. The connections happen in an ad hoc, unscheduled basis as we are reading and discussing. They are not forced, and they do not have to write them down. SWB talks about asking children to do things first VERBALLY and wait until that becomes easy before beginning to require doing those things in writing. I think it's a smart strategy.

 

I would also humbly suggest that you consider what is the most important thing for Mr. Writing Phobic to physically write and focus on that.

 

For example, my children do absolutely no writing for their timeline. I have a timeline on the wall and I print History Through the Ages graphics on stickers. The name of the person, dates, and short blurb are already printed there. All my children do is color the stickers, which they still LOVE to do. Then they get to stick them on the timeline, which they pass several times each day in the hallway. Honestly, the timeline construction you're asking of your son sounds like high-school level work to me.

 

I also only have them outline a couple times a month (I alternate outlines or summaries with CW writing assignments). It's most important to me that they complete those well. And my 10yo boy is definitely laconic, and a big part of that is to cut down what he has to physically write on the paper. As long as it's not so laconic as to say nothing, I do let him "be himself." Sometimes I do ask him to beef it up. While I still do require narrations from the children, they are of book-length works now, and only once in a while do I make them write those down, because I don't want to tire them out with that when CW assignments and outlines are more important to me.

 

I also definitely agree with the others that it's important to flesh out KHE with additional books to stimulate interest. He shouldn't be doing so many KHE outlines that he has no time to read. I think some of the books should be independent and some read-aloud.

 

I hope this helps a little, from the mother of one laconic boy to another . . .

[ElizabethB]

Some books that spell out connections and teach history from an interesting point of view:

 

Albion's Seed (for much older student, but good to keep in mind, good reading for an adult or advanced High School level)

 

Seeds of Change by Henry Hobhouse

 

Thomas Sowell's Culture books (a 3 book series, pick the area that interests him most to start with)

 

Generations by Strauss and Howe

[Colleen in NS]

What extra readings do you do ?

 

DS picks a topic from KHE, reads about it elsewhere (World Book, library books, etc.), and outlines from the additional books (one level outlines from a few paragraphs). No outlining from KHE. It's a starting point for us - a place to get topics for further reading/practicing writing skills, and dates for timeline.

 

Anyway, extra readings come when I sit down every couple of weeks with WTM, and go through the topic/biography/lit./author lists and reserve many, many library books! :) I also use a Sonlight list, and a couple of other lists I've found, if I want more books. I give my kids a wide variety of library books on hist., sci., lit., art, and music topics/events/people, so that they are constantly reading/browsing on their own, as well as listening to me read aloud. Ds makes connections, not because of my organized school plans, but because of all the reading he does from the library books.

[inashoe]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

I really like the idea of stickers only for the timeline and no writing. ds will love that ! also I think when they glance over the timeline he will remember the events / people more easily if there is a "picture"

 

I have had trouble finding extra books to supplement KHE. I know it will get better once we get to the Greeks and Romans, which is very soon. I have a ton waiting on the bookshelf.

 

Perhaps WTM recommends just too much for an average boy. We don't even do all that is rec. for history, the extra summaries etc.

I think I will try only outlining a topic of interest and not KHE. That should be of more interest to my son.

He is, btw, getting better at his one level outlines, which is encouraging. I think it is KHE which is just so dry and dull that is the problem.

 

I am also considering not exactly following the KHE chronological order. For ex. he is busy with South America right now, I see that and other areas in America pop up a bit later - so I am considering doing all of the continent.

Ancient India comes next, and again it is a bit here and then a bit later, so we will possibly do all of Ancient India before moving onto the next topic.

[WTMCassandra]

I'm glad that idea helps you.

 

I get my timeline figures off the Homeschool in the Woods CD.

 

We have a long hallway so I use the Knowledge Quest Wall Timelines that I had laminated at a teacher's store. There are lots of other wall, book, and accordion timeline options.

 

I print the timeline figures before each school year starts on 2-inch x 4-inch shipping labels that I run through my B&W laser printer. A few images are too wide to fit and I have to use 3 and 1/3-inch x 4 inch labels, but I run out of room too fast if I am too indulgent with that size.

 

The children color the timeline figures as we study them with their Prismacolor colored pencils.

 

I hope this helps a little.

[Colleen in NS]

We don't even do all that is rec. for history, the extra summaries etc.

I think I will try only outlining a topic of interest and not KHE. That should be of more interest to my son.

He is, btw, getting better at his one level outlines, which is encouraging. I think it is KHE which is just so dry and dull that is the problem.

 

I am also considering not exactly following the KHE chronological order. For ex. he is busy with South America right now, I see that and other areas in America pop up a bit later - so I am considering doing all of the continent.

Ancient India comes next, and again it is a bit here and then a bit later, so we will possibly do all of Ancient India before moving onto the next topic.

 

This is just fine!! As long as he is reading lots, interested, and writing about one outline and one narration per week on topics he loves, and getting some idea of chronology from keeping an outline, he will start making connections, keep interested, and develop writing skills! You are doing great! :) I think WTM outlines the perfect history program, the perfect science program......and it's wonderful and I'd love to do all of it, too, but I figure as long as writing skills are being developed consistently, reading is being done, and time is being organized on paper and therefore in ds' mind, we are doing well. I've reassured myself of this after I got WWE, because I saw that WWE did not have nearly the *amount* of writing that WTM rec's in all subjects of grammar stage, yet WWE develops writing skills wonderfully. Does that make sense?