college prep science sequence with physics first

[silver]

I think physics first makes sense: 9th is physics, 10th is chemistry, 11th is biology, 12th is the student's choice. All my kids have been or are on track for algebra before 9th and the math needed to do chemistry by 10th. 

Given this, if I want to do college prep and physics first, should it be an algebra or algebra/vector based physics for 9th grade? Or can it be a conceptual physics in 9th? 

My kids are all college track, but not aiming for highly-rejective schools. The highest they'll probably aim is a school near us with SAT scores of 1310-1490 for the middle 50% (to try to give some idea of selectivity we're looking at). Do they need to have honors science if they are not interested in STEM? (Only one of the three is interested in STEM, and I'm using honors and DE science material for that one.)

[ScoutTN]

If they have solid algebra 1, do algebra based, not conceptual. 

[regentrude]

If you have algebra, do algebra&trig based physics. Including math makes it make a lot more sense.

We did physics first using College Physics by Knight, Jones Field for 9th grade. 

Ymmv. I would only do this with a strong math student. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by regentrude

[gstharr]

10 hours ago, silver said:

 

My kids are all college track, but not aiming for highly-rejective schools. The highest they'll probably aim is a school near us with SAT scores of 1310-1490 for the middle 50% (to try to give some idea of selectivity we're looking at). Do they need to have honors science if they are not interested in STEM? (Only one of the three is interested in STEM, and I'm using honors and DE science material for that one.)

You need to better define your target colleges.   While 1300+ admit most applicants, 1400+ schools are highly selective--examples include UCLA, UMigh, Wellesley,  Uflorida,, and  NYU.  1490 is very low entry for the extremely selective colleges.   The rigor of math  and science needed differs for each range.

[silver]

2 hours ago, gstharr said:

You need to better define your target colleges.   While 1300+ admit most applicants, 1400+ schools are highly selective--examples include UCLA, UMigh, Wellesley,  Uflorida,, and  NYU.  1490 is very low entry for the extremely selective colleges.   The rigor of math  and science needed differs for each range.

I'm unsure of how to get the information you're asking for. My household is only just starting the college search, and the middle 50% is what I can find. 

For the specific college I mentioned, they say they accept 73% of applicants. I'm guessing most of the rejections come from their engineering school, where the middle 50% of admitted students have an SAT of 1380-1510. 

[EKS]

13 hours ago, silver said:

I think physics first makes sense...

It does make sense if the student has the math (algebra and trigonometry) for it.  Conceptual physics is, in my opinion, more appropriate for a bright middle schooler (who has had Algebra 1) than it is for high school.  (Yes I know they offer it in college.)

If you want to wait for more mathematical maturity, the standard (U.S.) biology, chemistry, physics sequence is better.  Especially if you can get in a good conceptual or middle school physical science course in 8th grade.

[gstharr]

Start with a list of schools your kids are interested in attending. Then, look up each school's admitted student profile. When I googled U Migh admitted student profile, this came up: https://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/factsfigures/firstyearsprofile_umaa.pdf.  There will be all sorts of information popping, such as admission strategy, school life. 9th  grade is a great time to start researching.  11th grade is too late if you end up seeking extremely selective schools.

[silver]

Just now, gstharr said:

Start with a list of schools your kids are interested in attending. Then, look up each school's admitted student profile. When I googled U Migh admitted student profile, this came up: https://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/factsfigures/firstyearsprofile_umaa.pdf.  There will be all sorts of information popping, such as admission strategy, school life. 9th  grade is a great time to start researching.  11th grade is too late if you end up seeking extremely selective schools.

That's what I did to get the middle 50% range that I gave. Maybe I'm using the wrong term for it? I don't mean that the 50th percentile varies wildly, I mean that the 25th percentile is the low end and the 75th percentile is the upper end, and thus the middle 50% of students fall in that range.

[silver]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

It does make sense if the student has the math (algebra and trigonometry) for it.  Conceptual physics is, in my opinion, more appropriate for a bright middle schooler (who has had Algebra 1) than it is for high school.  (Yes I know they offer it in college.)

If you want to wait for more mathematical maturity, the standard (U.S.) biology, chemistry, physics sequence is better.  Especially if you can get in a good conceptual or middle school physical science course in 8th grade.

I'm confused even more now. I said my kids will have the math to do physics in 9th. I'm mainly wondering if conceptual physics in high school is okay for non-stem students that are on a college path. Is algebra and basic trig functions not enough math to take physics in 9th?

[EKS]

14 minutes ago, silver said:

I said my kids will have the math to do physics in 9th.

Sorry, I didn't see that.  If they have the math to do standard high school physics, then it sounds like you're good to go.  However, you might want to wait until they've done calculus and then just have them start with calculus-based physics (for example AP Physics C).  This is what my son, who completed calculus in 10th grade, did, and it worked well.

(Though you may want to consider that having the math and having the mathematical maturity can be two different things.)

Edited September 11, 2023 by EKS

[EKS]

24 minutes ago, silver said:

I'm mainly wondering if conceptual physics in high school is okay for non-stem students that are on a college path.

Technically, physics isn't necessary at all in high school.  

I'm not a fan of conceptual physics (or chemistry). I think that the math actually helps makes the physical concepts more clear.  And when it comes to physics, calculus does this really, really well.

Also, as an aside, I am living proof that "non-STEM" students can surprise you.  I failed every high school math course I took (and had to retake, with the exception of Algebra 2, where I got a D), I never took chemistry or physics in high school, and I was on track to be some sort of art major.  I ended up majoring in biochemistry, and my weak math and science background made certain aspects of it (all of the math, chemistry, and physics courses, for example, as well as the more quantitative bio topics like enzyme kinetics and genetics) a struggle.

[Roadrunner]

No need for calculus based physics for non stem. You can do algebra based one in 9th. If you are interested in a class, I would recommend Clover Creek Physics. While she uses a conceptual physics textbook, she supplements it with algebra based problems. 
And with test optional I am not sure you need the score. I have seen kids with 1300 get accepted as test optional into the very elite and 1580 accepted nowhere. 

[Farrar]

Be careful about assuming your kid will be in range for some of these schools. That's a pretty high middle 50.

If your kids are looking at anything in STEM, do an algebra-based physics for sure. If they're definitely not, then a more conceptual physics is actually okay IMHO. We did a little math but not as much. Used the Hewett text and the QSL kit. My kids did fine in the process. No one is over scrutinizing most of the time.

[regentrude]

Just another perspective:

For a student who is NOT going into STEM, highschool will be the only time they get to learn physics. So it makes sense to teach them as rigorous a class as their math allows. I don't really understand the notion of teaching the non-STEM students less science-they need all the science they can get precisely because they won't take any more in college. 

(Pet peeve: the very uneven non-major requirements for different college majors. If my physics majors are required to take 18 credits in humanities and social sciences, the English majors should be required to take 18 credits in math and science. Which they are not.)

Edited September 11, 2023 by regentrude

[silver]

9 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Be careful about assuming your kid will be in range for some of these schools. That's a pretty high middle 50.

That school will likely be the biggest stretch. The other schools being tossed around for/by my oldest (HS junior) have a range more like 1150-1400 (or lower). That one is my STEM kid and did algebra based physics in 9th. I'm trying to puzzle through the other two, neither of which are interested in STEM at the moment. I don't want doors to close due to course choices.

Right now, the top of my eldest's list is what I'd consider a safety (automatic admission if above 2.75 GPA with proof of non-remedial/college readiness--which we'll have via DE). That school is also a financial safety for our family. But it's the only school visited so far, so it may fall down the list over the next year.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, silver said:

I'm trying to puzzle through the other two, neither of which are interested in STEM at the moment. I don't want doors to close due to course choices.

The only thing that closes doors is a wrak math preparation.at my state STEM uni, 20% of engineering students never had physics in highschool. They'll be fine, because every intro physics course starts from the beginning. What causes students to fail is a lack of rock solid algebra skills.

[silver]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Just another perspective:

For a student who is NOT going into STEM, highschool will be the only time they get to learn physics. So it makes sense to teach them as rigorous a class as their math allows. I don't really understand the notion of teaching the non-STEM students to less science-they need all the science they can get precisely because they won't take any more in college.

(Pet peeve: the very uneven non-major requirements for different college majors. While my physics majors are required to take 18 credits in humanities and social sciences, the English majors aren't likewise required to take 18 credits in math and science.)

 

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

The only thing that closes doors is a wrak math preparation.at my state STEM uni, 20% of engineering students never had physics in highschool. They'll be fine, because every intro physics course starts from the beginning. What causes students to fail is a lack of rock solid algebra skills.

Thank you for these posts. I think you've made a good argument for them to do algebra physics instead of conceptual physics.