Please give me your thoughts on next year for DS7-almost-8

[jrichstad]

I haven't been on here in a long time--my daughter went back to public school for jr high & is absolutely thriving, hooray--but I'm facing a tough decision for DS7 next year: taking him out of his current public school class for a year (or more), or leave him in?

DS7 isn't 8 for another two weeks, so he's consistently been the youngest in his grade. Redshirting wasn't an option for us, since he's already academically advanced. He went to school for the first time in the middle of 1st grade, into a GATE class with a wonderful teacher. He had to switch schools for 2nd grade; he was in School #1 because our local GATE school--not our neighborhood school--doesn't have a 1st-grade GATE class, and he would absolutely not have done well in a gen ed class. 

2nd grade was kind of a bust. He managed his behavior well and the teacher loved him, but as far as I can see he made no academic progress--his test scores actually dropped--and he didn't love the teacher, school, class, other kids, nothing. He's almost a full year younger than most of the boys--a lot of boys in our school district are redshirted, and the GATE class tends to have older kids in it anyway for what I assume are Freakonomics reasons, eg they seem more mature/ smarter and so get 'identified' more readily. The one friend he made is NOT a good influence on him. 

Our GATE program is really just a whole-grade acceleration; there's nothing particularly special about it other than the fact that they do a year ahead on the curriculum. Sometimes you luck out and get a teacher who steps it up, which was the case for his 1st grade teacher but not his 2nd. The current 3rd grade teacher has retired & we still haven't been told who the new 3rd grade teacher will be. 

Academically, he tests as highly but not profoundly gifted. His working memory and processing speed are slightly low compared to his other scores. He's about three years ahead in math and a very strong reader, but he hates, hates, hates writing and school busy work. 

Behaviorally, he's high-strung, intolerant of frustration, and hates being corrected. At school, he's pretty compliant; at home, he can be difficult to work with--that's basically why we sent him to school in the first place. (He's also funny, loving, curious, and scrupulously honest--I'm just focused on the school-related issues.) 

Here are my options:

1. Continue as we've begun; keep his spot in the 3rd grade GATE class. 

2. Homeschool for a year and then enroll him in 4th grade in the brand-new neighborhood school; accelerate only in math. This will be an option for 4th grade but not for 3rd, because a) the school won't open until partway through the year, and b) per the principal, whom I spoke with, they have a harder time doing subject acceleration in 3rd grade because K-3 tend to have math at variable times, while the 4-6 classes all do math at the same time in order to facilitate differentiation. (Of course, we could also continue homeschooling indefinitey if it's working for everyone.)

Pros of homeschooling: the obvious ones, plus he'd get to spend more time on the things he really loves, like coding/ robotics/ engineering. Also, we could spend more time on activities that the public school schedule tends to crowd out, like Spanish, music (cello lessons), and speech therapy.   

Cons: the local homeschoolers are mostly very religious and conservative, and we're not. They're also (in my experience) aggressively religious and conservative, so co-ops and park dates are not an good option for us. I could and would find plenty of classes and athletic activities, but there wouldn't be much option for unstructured socialization aside from the neighborhood friends he already has (these are mostly younger kids). Also, I do work from home, and although my schedule is flexible and fairly light during most months of the year, homeschooling adds another layer of stress. 

Pros of sticking with the public school GATE class: it's the easy option. 
 
Cons: Not a great fit either academically or socially. Academically: too much writing, not enough math. I would still be fighting with him to do his homework. He says that he gets so bored in class that he feels sick and that he "feels bad most of the time" at school. (I think this might be hyperbole on his part.) Socially: Based on my observations, he would continue not to fit in well at the GATE school and the neighborhood school. The social environment would be slightly better at the GATE school, where the kids are a little more diverse in all ways. Our neighborhood is lovely, but homogenous in all aspects & the school will be as well. Another mom who's deciding whether to send her child to the neighborhood school described his potential classmates as very "boys will be boys", which seems accurate. There's a strong sporty/ aggressive vibe in a lot of the families. Good for some, not our style. DS7 is active and athletic but definitely not sporty.    

Any thoughts or obvious aspects I've failed to consider? I've been changing my mind about this every three days. 
 

[El...]

I'm not sure what I'd do in your spot. I'd be afraid that I'd bring the kid too far outside or ahead to reintegrate smoothly. 

I've had that issue with my first kid, and now we're homeschooling high school (which I'm loving, but isn't easy).

Will they be able to continue to accelerate his math when he's at the upper edge of middle school? Or will he get stuck because the higher math is only offered at the high school and he's too small/young to go there when he's ready?

[alpinegrace]

Well, first of all, I know what it's like to debate schooling options for my child and go back and forth. So, my heart goes out to you. It's a tough decision!

I am also quite surprised at the options for public school you have. In my area, GATE is nearly nonexistent and there is absolutely no differentiation of subject matter at the same grade level. So, kudos to wherever you are. 

If it were me, I would go with option 2.

Socially, it appears the options are either a wash or slightly in favor of homeschooling. Homeschooling you don't have much of a community, but you could potentially attempt to find other more like-minded homeschoolers. May take some work, but possible. With the school system, he doesn't appear to have much of a good influence socially or it's just not a good fit. I would also have concerns if my child told me they consistently felt sick or bad at school. I would worry about bullying issues, but maybe I'm reading into this differently than you mean. Either way, from what you wrote, it doesn't sound like socially either one is a strong winner.

So that leaves academics.

Homeschooling you can tailor his education. Obvious win there. Academically, you said the public school isn't a good fit. So homeschool for the win here.

I imagine the hardest part of this is putting the rubber to the road. Homeschool is just more work than sending him to public school. Maybe give yourself a few days to see if you could tailor an education plan that would work for him and your schedule. If you think it would only be for a year and you would like to enroll him in ps for 4th grade, then maybe just focus on the basics to give him time to pursue his interests and to lighten your own load. He's very young, so I imagine even if you only focused on the basics, it would still be a stronger education than what he'd get at public school, even in a GATE program. 

Best of luck!

[PeterPan]

The only way bringing him home this year works is if you find something online or use tutors or whatever that gives him the structure he needs. Does G3 or anyone have classes for this age?

It sounds like his lack of engagement in the GATE problem could be the cause of his drop in test scores. So to go back to GATE, you need something to make that go better. Maybe a 504? Maybe some OT goals for self-awareness? It's also unreasonable of them not to get his math instruction on level.

 

[jrichstad]

11 hours ago, El... said:

Will they be able to continue to accelerate his math when he's at the upper edge of middle school? Or will he get stuck because the higher math is only offered at the high school and he's too small/young to go there when he's ready?

Yes, there's a math/science charter school in our district that offers advancement to anyone who can test into it--kids go in the morning and then are bused back to their home schools for late morning/ afternoon classes. Kids usually start in 7th grade with Integrated 1, but you can go at any age. I know a profoundly gifted 9-year-old who's going this year! I can't see DS7 having the executive function/ emotional regulation to go before 6th grade at the earliest. So, there's really no danger of accelerating too much. Like I said, he's bright and mathy, but not so much that he'll grow out of what our district offers. (Whether it's provided in a format that's suitable for him is another matter.)

He did do small-group math acceleration in his class this last year, and it was a disaster. The other two kids with him were not any better at understanding the material, but they were both much, much faster at calculation. He found it incredibly frustrating and spent a lot of the time refusing to do anything. 

Oh, another issue that may be just a pet peeve of mine is that I HATE the math curriculum our district uses--iReady. It's just awful! SO confusingly written and manages to be both too slow for the mathy kids and not provide enough direct instruction for the kids who need more support. It was making DS7 hate math. We're doing Khan Academy this summer and it's just about perfect for him--no frills, very little repetitive, and just enough explanation when he needs it.   

  

[bookbard]

So, have you investigated whether he is 2E at all? Lower scores in processing and working memory are a red flag in gifted kids to have something else going on, maybe ADHD or autism. Could you investigate that and get support for the writing from the school? I'm not familiar with American schools, but I know in Australia, I just told the school we would not be doing any homework, and they were fine with it. 

[jrichstad]

15 hours ago, bookbard said:

So, have you investigated whether he is 2E at all? Lower scores in processing and working memory are a red flag in gifted kids to have something else going on, maybe ADHD or autism. Could you investigate that and get support for the writing from the school? 

Yes, I'm actually waiting on the neuropsych report right now! Autism seems highly unlikely to me, but ADHD is a distinct possibility. I am hoping that it will provide some clarity & maybe some action items if we do elect to keep sending him to school. I have definitely considered telling the school that 1) we're going to do math at home, and 2) he's not going to be doing any homework & would prefer to have something official to work with. 

[Ellie]

On 7/7/2023 at 12:18 PM, jrichstad said:

 He says that he gets so bored in class that he feels sick and that he "feels bad most of the time" at school. (I think this might be hyperbole on his part.)

Even if it's hyperbole, this right here would be enough for *me* to try my darndest to make homeschooling work.

[Idalou]

If I were you, I'd keep him home. An 8 year old, strong reader, curious, super honest, etc sounds like a dream child! Why not let this coming year be one devoted to coding, robotics, engineering? Let him read and watch anything and everything related to those- manuals, biographies, tutorials, even youtube type videos. Does he enjoy the cello? If so, expand on that. Science should be fairly easy, my 8 year olds love to experiment, the messier and 'grosser' ones the better. They can sit and look at and draw and research for hours about stuff they see in pond water under a microscope. It seems like you already know he thrives on Khan more than the school's choice for mathematics. My reluctant writers realized they loved to make powerpoints about their current obsessions for me to view. They learned how to write summaries and add charts and bar graphs. They weren't writing multiple paragraphs at 8, but later had no troubles with that. 

It sounds like a main concern is socializing. Can I ask why he wouldn't enjoy playing with the local homeschoolers? I'm not conservative, not a Christian, basically the opposite of what you described. Are the kids aggressive that way towards him at park days, or is it you who feels out of place with the other moms? I understand that totally. I had to force myself to put on a neutral face and sit at a picnic table with that type, because my kid did enjoy the weekly play dates. We've worked around that by finding summer programs at local centers and UU church groups.

The layer of stress? Would it be more than dealing with a grumpy child who complains about not feeling well at school?

Edited July 11, 2023 by Idalou

[Malam]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:11 AM, jrichstad said:

& would prefer to have something official to work with

What do you mean by this?

[jrichstad]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:07 AM, Idalou said:

If I were you, I'd keep him home. An 8 year old, strong reader, curious, super honest, etc sounds like a dream child! Why not let this coming year be one devoted to coding, robotics, engineering? Let him read and watch anything and everything related to those- manuals, biographies, tutorials, even youtube type videos. Does he enjoy the cello? If so, expand on that. Science should be fairly easy, my 8 year olds love to experiment, the messier and 'grosser' ones the better. They can sit and look at and draw and research for hours about stuff they see in pond water under a microscope. It seems like you already know he thrives on Khan more than the school's choice for mathematics. My reluctant writers realized they loved to make powerpoints about their current obsessions for me to view. They learned how to write summaries and add charts and bar graphs. They weren't writing multiple paragraphs at 8, but later had no troubles with that. 

It sounds like a main concern is socializing. Can I ask why he wouldn't enjoy playing with the local homeschoolers? I'm not conservative, not a Christian, basically the opposite of what you described. Are the kids aggressive that way towards him at park days, or is it you who feels out of place with the other moms? I understand that totally. I had to force myself to put on a neutral face and sit at a picnic table with that type, because my kid did enjoy the weekly play dates. We've worked around that by finding summer programs at local centers and UU church groups.

The layer of stress? Would it be more than dealing with a grumpy child who complains about not feeling well at school?

Socializing is a worry, but I do also have concerns that it would affect our relationship. He's a little demand-avoidant & has no problem simply refusing to do something. He's much more compliant with other adults. (I *can* get him to comply, but I don't want every day to be a battle.)   

I know all the counterpoints to "but how do you socialize???" and like ... they sound fine when you say them, but my experience after several years of homeschooling my daughter is that it's a major concern for my particular children & in our particular area. I could sign him up for a billion camps and classes, but swim team (or scouts, or whatever) is not a substitute for the unstructured free time with their peers that they get in school. Maybe our school district is particularly generous with their free time, but it's been my experience that the kids have lots of time to mingle, and they're certainly not being forced to sit in silent rows all day. 

@Idalou I hear your implicit (gentle!) critique, and you're right: I do hate those park dates. I've never brought DS7 to them, so I can't say how the other boys around his age would be, but my daughter didn't have great experiences with them either. When she was at home, I did try *really* hard. I put together classes, we went on field trips, we did park dates, and it was just ... not great. The secular homeschoolers around here mostly don't educate their kids, and the religious ones basically want you to sign a statement of faith to come to a playdate.     

Thank you everyone who's taken the time to respond!

[Clarita]

32 minutes ago, jrichstad said:

I could sign him up for a billion camps and classes, but swim team (or scouts, or whatever) is not a substitute for the unstructured free time with their peers that they get in school.

I get a decent amount of unstructured free time doing baseball because it happens at a park and sometimes (depending on the league) on the weekends. So a bunch of us usually hang out after the games and just let the kids play. It does feel like activities that occur at public parks are a lot better with having unstructured free time afterwards. Things like swim or ice skating where you have to vacate the premises pretty much immediately afterwards to not be so conducive to that.

38 minutes ago, jrichstad said:

He's a little demand-avoidant & has no problem simply refusing to do something. He's much more compliant with other adults. (I *can* get him to comply, but I don't want every day to be a battle.) 

What does he want/prefer? My son is stubborn and will absolutely refuse to do stuff. But he wants to be homeschool compared to the other schools we can offer him, so he is decently compliant for school time since it's his choice. Your son is complaining about his other choice for school, so I would just really include him in the school decision. If you decide to homeschool have him be a part of deciding how his school day goes. Give him guidelines (mandated by law or your bottom line), but let him have a say curriculum, the routine/schedule, and get his input on some of the how.    

[jrichstad]

Okay, I got the neurocognitive report a couple of days ago--DS has now officially turned 8--and have been processing it. When I look at the profile, it seems to be profoundly unsuited to public school: 

As I think I said, his IQ tests as highly (99th percentile) but not profoundly gifted. (This test was done through our school district two years ago.) At the time, his overall score was pulled down by average/ low average processing speed and working memory.

The private psychologist we saw last month administered sections of the Woodcock-Johnson. His scores on the processing speed portions were generally average; his high scores (from 85th to 99th percentile, depending on the subtest) were in planning, visual-auditory learning, verbal attention, short-term auditory memory, memory for words, phonological processing, and story recall. He actually seemed to do quite well on the working memory tasks; his number reversal score was in the 97th percentile. 

On the NEPSY, his scores in the inhibitions sections were mostly average; his Comprehension of Instructions score was in the 98th percentile. 

She partially assessed him for ADHD and DMDD and found that he didn't quite meet the criteria for either but also didn't not meet them. (I'm paraphrasing.) 

Finally, she diagnosed him with dysgraphia. 

My interpretation is that he has no trouble getting things into his head but has some trouble getting them out. I think that this probably contributes to his frustration and withdrawal (these are the symptoms that prompted the eval). If he gets overwhelmed at home or school, he shuts down. 

Sometimes I worry that I'm pushing him too much because I've seen his scores and think that he should be capable of work that he's not emotionally or developmentally ready for. He does get bored with grade-level work, but he also gets really frustrated (like, not productive struggle, just mad) with work that's too hard. 

I also can't help wondering if this is the type of child who really would do better with an interest-led/ unschooling approach. 

[73349]

Your DS sounds a lot like mine (now 15) when he was younger (except yours is just a bit farther ahead in math). After an unsatisfactory preschool experience, we've been able to make homeschooling work for us. Scouting has been a decent social outlet--mine is never going to be a social butterfly, but he gets along and has some fun with a group--and now that he's older, he can do stuff like a teen board game night on his own. Learning to type helped somewhat with the writing challenges; he's making progress, but still definitely not at a writing level commensurate with his other abilities. But homeschooling is actually enjoyable for both of us, and really has been since we got past that 7yo stage of But I Don't Want to Do Work. I know mine would've been deeply unhappy in our available schools, and I'm thankful we didn't have to do daily homework wrangling.

I hope you find something that's a good fit, whatever that looks like for your child. A lot of times there's no perfect answer.

[Malam]

On 7/18/2023 at 2:59 PM, jrichstad said:

At the time, his overall score was pulled down by average/ low average processing speed and working memory

What's his GAI score?

[Tanager]

Hmmm, my daughter, 13, has some similarities. I’ve never had her officially tested. She exhibits add more with everyday tasks then with school, but has dysgraphia. (As well as her dad and some other family members). She enjoys things she can write in her head. Poetry was a favorite. The block to get things out of her head (and her dads) is frustrating. She likes to act out stories with props/toys before writing them. Typing helps a little. She has the tools for speech to text, but hasn’t done it yet. I was told during Covid when I couldn’t get her an appointment to explicitly teacher her writing. She Hated IEW ( she’s a creative writer), she did like WWS because of the literature selections. There was a lot of correction, mostly I just walked her through everything she wrote after each stage of writing and we discussed it. Now it’s coming together for school, but there is still a disconnect to her.

Interest led homeschooling has been wonderful, especially in the younger years. Now with the charter (her choice to stay for the music option) there is less freedom to follow passions. We weren’t unschoolers, I wish I could sometimes. She picks her topics and we follow that, then for the basics- math, language arts - she approves curriculum I find and chooses to switch if needed. As far as levels it didn’t seem to matter with interest based things, she’d usually pick the harder material as it was more interesting.

[jrichstad]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:59 PM, Clarita said:

I get a decent amount of unstructured free time doing baseball because it happens at a park and sometimes (depending on the league) on the weekends. So a bunch of us usually hang out after the games and just let the kids play. It does feel like activities that occur at public parks are a lot better with having unstructured free time afterwards. Things like swim or ice skating where you have to vacate the premises pretty much immediately afterwards to not be so conducive to that.

What does he want/prefer? My son is stubborn and will absolutely refuse to do stuff. But he wants to be homeschool compared to the other schools we can offer him, so he is decently compliant for school time since it's his choice. Your son is complaining about his other choice for school, so I would just really include him in the school decision. If you decide to homeschool have him be a part of deciding how his school day goes. Give him guidelines (mandated by law or your bottom line), but let him have a say curriculum, the routine/schedule, and get his input on some of the how.    

For sure. He's moderately interested in trying baseball this year--we'll see. 

You know how standard toddler advice is to give them a choice, like "Do you want the red cup or the blue cup"? It never worked on DS8. He didn't want ANY cup, or he wanted to drink out of a bowl like a dog, or he wanted to throw a tantrum instead of deciding. I've been trying to talk to him about what he wants to learn, and it's the same thing: "Do you want to study really old history or newer history?" "I don't want to learn any history." "Do you want to read Magic Treehouse or Eerie Elementary?" "I don't want to read either of them." "Do you want to work on fractions or long division today?" "I don't want to do math." You know. 

As I write this, I know that it sounds like I 100% should not homeschool him ... but last year, a five-minute homework assignment would turn into a three-hour ordeal, which means that all our time together was spent fighting about work anyway. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 7/21/2023 at 7:03 AM, 73349 said:

Your DS sounds a lot like mine (now 15) when he was younger (except yours is just a bit farther ahead in math). After an unsatisfactory preschool experience, we've been able to make homeschooling work for us. Scouting has been a decent social outlet--mine is never going to be a social butterfly, but he gets along and has some fun with a group--and now that he's older, he can do stuff like a teen board game night on his own. Learning to type helped somewhat with the writing challenges; he's making progress, but still definitely not at a writing level commensurate with his other abilities. But homeschooling is actually enjoyable for both of us, and really has been since we got past that 7yo stage of But I Don't Want to Do Work.

Tell me more about this 7yo stage of But I Don't Want to Do Work. My daughter never had that--when did yours grow out of it? How did you handle it? I worry about 1) ending up just frustrated and mad at each other every day, or 2) just giving up on having him do the difficult tasks. I would love some input on maintaining expectations through this stage (?).

15 hours ago, Malam said:

What's his GAI score?

I feel hesitant to share his private info on a public forum, although I can PM you if there's a particular reason you think the score would be helpful to know. 

12 hours ago, Tanager said:

The block to get things out of her head (and her dads) is frustrating. 

Interest led homeschooling has been wonderful, especially in the younger years. Now with the charter (her choice to stay for the music option) there is less freedom to follow passions. We weren’t unschoolers, I wish I could sometimes. She picks her topics and we follow that, then for the basics- math, language arts - she approves curriculum I find and chooses to switch if needed. As far as levels it didn’t seem to matter with interest based things, she’d usually pick the harder material as it was more interesting.

I think DS8 gets this from his dad, too--my husband's more of a ruminator/ slow thinker, whereas I tend to blurt out the first thing that comes into my head <eyeroll> How did you balance interest-led homeschooling with a well-rounded education? Or is that the wrong question? I'm pretty sure I would find unschooling too stressful lol. 

 

[Tanager]

17 hours ago, jrichstad said:

How did you balance interest-led homeschooling with a well-rounded education? Or is that the wrong question? I'm pretty sure I would find unschooling too stressful lol. 

To me, in the younger years, math and language arts are the most important so those do happen and are on a schedule that stays mostly consistent. I also don’t use the new math as I find it developmentally wrong, especially when kids are ahead in math. I never paid attention in school so I figured I didn’t care if my kids missed WW1 or a unit on weather as at some point it would catch their interest and they would fill in the blanks. I think that sticks better. We would do one or two interest studies for 2 or 3 months then switch. One month was never long enough. I did try to get interests going with random library books and exposures. Though my youngest seems to be sticking with interest subjects longer. They do like the SOTW audio books and documentaries, which I guess is me trying to round things out. But my kids aren’t defiant unless there’s a problem.

I do believe in an unschooling break after stopping public school. I saw my step-daughter go from I hate school (private) to learning for herself after a year break, though this was after she was done high school. 

We played a lot with an unschooling family who’s oldest is a brilliant kid (who has dyslexia). The mom picked peace in the home over the battles. School didn’t work for them, but they played hard, free, followed passions and could think for themselves in ways I really admire. Around 10/11 things got a little more school oriented, but still mostly unschooled.  He can read now. I believe those kids will do great in the world. I could see her giving him water in a bowl so he could be a dog in the right setting.

How would’ve your husband liked to be schooled if anything was possible? That might be your answer...

Edited July 24, 2023 by Tanager
Brain fog headache spelling :)

[73349]

16 hours ago, jrichstad said:

Tell me more about this 7yo stage of But I Don't Want to Do Work. My daughter never had that--when did yours grow out of it? How did you handle it? I worry about 1) ending up just frustrated and mad at each other every day, or 2) just giving up on having him do the difficult tasks. I would love some input on maintaining expectations through this stage (?).

I've heard many times on here that people are having trouble getting a 7yo to cooperate, and DS was similar.

First, I made it clear that there is no legal option to play all day. We can homeschool for two hours a day and then go do fun stuff after lunch, or you can get on the bus and be in your assigned PS nine hours a day and come home with homework, but every 7yo in the state is doing school today and I don't have the legal option to let you just watch TV or something. This is not Mom being a meanie; I am the parent/guardian of a minor child aged 7 to 16, and I shall cause said child to attend school.

Second, we went over our list of curricula and talked about what he liked well enough, what he hated, and how I could help. We ditched a music thing he couldn't stand. We started school each morning with the most attractive thing, since the transition into doing school was a stumbling block. I made English as short and non-threatening as possible. I did a lot of scribing for math, since the math and not the writing was the important part. We had lots of conversation; I did not leave him to complete more than a few minutes of written work without support. I offered candy each Friday for correct answers to questions about what we had studied during the week. In April, I checked out poetry books and we had a poetry tea (with snacks) once a week. Basically, I made it clear that this was a good-faith effort on my part to make it as painless as possible to do what we needed to do.

I made sure we went to the library once a week and he had complete freedom of what to check out (except I needed to make a rule that you can only check out as much as you can carry yourself) and whether or not he actually read it all. I read plenty out loud to him as well.

It took a while, but the resistance subsided.

Edited July 24, 2023 by 73349

[Ellie]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:59 PM, jrichstad said:

I also can't help wondering if this is the type of child who really would do better with an interest-led/ unschooling approach. 

I think if you understand what unschooling really is, you'd know one way or t'other. 🙂 John Holt, who coined the term, wrote a number of books about learning and education that really changed how *I* thought about learning and education. I highly recommend all of them.

[Shoeless]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:59 PM, jrichstad said:

I also can't help wondering if this is the type of child who really would do better with an interest-led/ unschooling approach. 

I read your post thinking "This child should be unschooled" and then saw your last line. 

I agree with @Ellie that you should read some John Holt to get your head around what he meant by unschooling.  

[jrichstad]

@Ellie @Shoeless I have read some John Holt but haven't gotten all the way through any of his books--it's hard for me to square his views with what cognitive scientists tell us about direct instruction, spaced repetition, knowledge-rich curriculum, etc. And I think it would be very hard for me to trust the process. I truly believe that my child might well never choose to learn about history. 

It might help if I knew any professed unschoolers whose children actually seemed to be educated, but the ones I know mostly play video games and count "folding laundry" as science. 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, jrichstad said:

@Ellie @Shoeless I have read some John Holt but haven't gotten all the way through any of his books--it's hard for me to square his views with what cognitive scientists tell us about direct instruction, spaced repetition, knowledge-rich curriculum, etc. And I think it would be very hard for me to trust the process. I truly believe that my child might well never choose to learn about history. 

It might help if I knew any professed unschoolers whose children actually seemed to be educated, but the ones I know mostly play video games and count "folding laundry" as science. 

Ok, well, @Ellie unschooled her kid(s) and I mostly unschooled my son when he was younger. We did not "count" chores as science. 

What's the difference between "knowledge rich curriculum" and a really interesting trade paperback on a favorite science topic?  Why is curriculum superior to a really great book?

I'm not anti-curriculum by any means, but it's not the only way for people to learn. 

[jrichstad]

@Shoeless I didn't mean to sound dismissive -- I'm sorry. I absolutely know that unschooling works for some children and families. In my everyday life, I have not seen families whose experience I would want to take as a model, and my imagination is just not robust enough to see how it works other than as an exception, with particular parents and particular students. I'm afraid I would NOT be that particular parent and would end up ruining it by continuing to secretly push my own agenda out of fear/ anxiety.

[bookbard]

I feel like reading Lori Pickert's Project-Based Homeschooling helped me understand unschooling, although she doesn't agree with strewing (she's more direct, doesn't like manipulation). I used a lot of ideas from this book but keep in mind that her husband did directly teach her boys maths. 

I really struggle with keeping my own agenda out of education. My kids are gifted and articulate and tell me often that they need to choose and need to consent to any activities . . . they'll be great when they're older. But I still need them to do a bit of work now. My kids are older though and will be returning to school next year, most likely. 

[Shoeless]

3 hours ago, jrichstad said:

@Shoeless I didn't mean to sound dismissive -- I'm sorry. I absolutely know that unschooling works for some children and families. In my everyday life, I have not seen families whose experience I would want to take as a model, and my imagination is just not robust enough to see how it works other than as an exception, with particular parents and particular students. I'm afraid I would NOT be that particular parent and would end up ruining it by continuing to secretly push my own agenda out of fear/ anxiety.

It is helpful to me to think of unschooling as "building my own curriculum".  I did "strew" materials that I thought my son would like. (I hate that term, though. It sounds affected to me). Sometimes he was stubborn and wouldn't even look at something until he saw me enjoy it and then it became fascinating to him. He fell in love with Beast Academy after he saw me read it. 

I hear you, though.  I have an axe to grind with the homeschoolers that call a walk in the woods as "science" or insist that baking and cookie math is all that kids need. After a certain point, no, cookie math and leaf collection is not enough and you need to crack open some books if your kids are going to be math and science literate. They will grow beyond their current age and need to know more than what they currently know to lead a competent life. 

[Clarita]

@Shoeless which John Holt or book would you suggest to start with in learning about unschooling method?

[Shoeless]

8 hours ago, Clarita said:

@Shoeless which John Holt or book would you suggest to start with in learning about unschooling method?

Teach Your Own, by John Holt would be a good starting place. 

I've also liked John Taylor Gatto and Sandra Dodd. Dodd is on the radical unschooling side of the spectrum, which I don't agree with entirely.  

I also recommend "Dumbing Us Down" by Gatto.

All 3 authors are former schoolteachers, for what that's worth.