A question for those who don't 'do' Harry Potter

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

If your family is not into Harry Potter for religious reasons (aka not exposing your kids to witches and magic), or if you don't do Halloween for religious (Christian) reasons, how would you react to the following?

 

1. your children need to learn a foreign language, by law. Your homeschooling right is dependent on it.

2. the target foreign language has a high cultural background dealing with witches and fairies and ogres of all kinds.

3. you cannot teach that foreign language yourself, for lack of knowledge, but a co-op is available to you.

4. the co-op book that is chosen contains many extracts of children books in the target language that contain witches and the like.

5. there's another book that could be chosen that contains nothing objectionable, but it is extremely dry, completely boring, and quite ineffective.

 

I'm facing the situation right now where I am to teach that co-op. French is mandatory in the province of Quebec. Many English speakers cannot teach it on their own, and yet their kids need to be able to function quickly in that language. Homeschooling materials don't teach to fluency at the rate that is needed here. So there's this co-op that's been going on for a few years, with a very low success rate. I started last September, and the kids just can't speak French at all. So I found this great program from France, but every year of the program contains something objectionable. One of the characters in the book has a vampire as a father! I know it's cultural. In France, there are witches stories, and ghosts, and ogres, and the like all over the place. It's just the way children lit is in France, for the most part. But the program is great! It develops conversational skills, has a lot of literature from a young age in it (ok, some may be in comics format, but it's French lit! Les Trois Mousquetaires, Les Misérables, Fantomas, etc...)

 

I talked to the parents about the program and they're very keen on it. I did forget (really, I did! It wasn't intentional) about the fantasy creatures. Now I'm worried about their reactions. Btw, the co-op is in a church, and most families attend that specific church..

[Aggie]

If your family is not into Harry Potter for religious reasons (aka not exposing your kids to witches and magic), or if you don't do Halloween for religious (Christian) reasons, how would you react to the following?

 

1. your children need to learn a foreign language, by law. Your homeschooling right is dependent on it.

2. the target foreign language has a high cultural background dealing with witches and fairies and ogres of all kinds.

3. you cannot teach that foreign language yourself, for lack of knowledge, but a co-op is available to you.

4. the co-op book that is chosen contains many extracts of children books in the target language that contain witches and the like.

5. there's another book that could be chosen that contains nothing objectionable, but it is extremely dry, completely boring, and quite ineffective.

 

I'm facing the situation right now where I am to teach that co-op. French is mandatory in the province of Quebec. Many English speakers cannot teach it on their own, and yet their kids need to be able to function quickly in that language. Homeschooling materials don't teach to fluency at the rate that is needed here. So there's this co-op that's been going on for a few years, with a very low success rate. I started last September, and the kids just can't speak French at all. So I found this great program from France, but every year of the program contains something objectionable. One of the characters in the book has a vampire as a father! I know it's cultural. In France, there are witches stories, and ghosts, and ogres, and the like all over the place. It's just the way children lit is in France, for the most part. But the program is great! It develops conversational skills, has a lot of literature from a young age in it (ok, some may be in comics format, but it's French lit! Les Trois Mousquetaires, Les Misérables, Fantomas, etc...)

 

I talked to the parents about the program and they're very keen on it. I did forget (really, I did! It wasn't intentional) about the fantasy creatures. Now I'm worried about their reactions. Btw, the co-op is in a church, and most families attend that specific church..

 

I would strongly object, quite frankly.

 

I'm also not one who believes every thing we study has to be exciting. Life is not Sesame Street. :001_smile: Now, not everything has to be dry as bones, either, but I don't choose our curriculum based on color or excitement.

 

Is there a way for you to modify the dry program to make it more effective? Take the good components from the French program and use them with the current one?

 

Isn't there any other program that would suit your needs? Anywhere?

 

You're in a tough spot. I hope you find something that works well. I know I would want a French-speaking person to teach my dc!

[coffeefreak]

We're OK with Harry Potter and Halloween, but we're in the minority at many co-ops. I understand your dilemma. You could present it exactly as you have here. You can say that the curriculum reflects the culture as well as the language. IMO, teaching the culture of a country is just as important as the language. Maybe that's the way to go. If that doesn't work, could you create your own small group to use the curriculum with? I'm interested in seeing what you're using. Do you have a link?

 

Blessings!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Coffeefreak:

I'm hoping this link will work

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/2090339322/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link

Funnily enough Amazon.com only has year 3. The above link does contain the vampire character, btw.

 

The program is called "Alex et Zoé et compagnie"

 

 

Aggie:

Is there a way for you to modify the dry program to make it more effective? Take the good components from the French program and use them with the current one? Isn't there any other program that would suit your needs? Anywhere?

 

 

For years, the co-op tried but it's not working. You're talking something like Prima Latina compared to Minimus. One is a dry list of words, the other has an engaging story, with characters, games, puppets, audio CD, etc... I can't take the dry program and create all of that. I'm not choosing the program because it has colours btw, but because it deals with all four aspects of speaking a language: reading, writing, listening and speaking. All other programs have mainly lists of words, and little grammar rules. Just like Minimus shows you the language in action, and Prima Latina does not.

Edited December 18, 2008 by CleoQc

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Here's another link:

https://www.eurobooks.co.uk/languagebooks/series/FRE/m1/c1/3/ALZO

 

it shows the range of material available with this specific course

[coffeefreak]

Cleo,

I like it! My kids would LOVE it! Comic books are a big hit here. Will you move to New Mexico and teach my kids? :) I don't know as much French as I do German. Would book 1 have enough instruction for someone who doesn't speak French fluently? Or are the instructor's guides in French too? My girls want to learn french, but I haven't found anything that I felt comfortable with on their level (3rd and K). I could teach them German, but, of course, why would they want to learn German?:glare:

 

I don't understand why anyone would object to it. It doesn't seem like Harry Potter. It's more like Disney to me. Just present it as a cultural difference and ask the co-op for a chance. Maybe if you ask for a semester to try out the curriculum, they'll be willing to give it a try.

Blessings!

Dorinda

[LBC]

There was a time in my parenting when I would have objected to this subject matter, but now I don't (I've grown :)).

 

Would you be able to send out an email to the parents in the co-op and ask them how they feel about it? If you explain your concerns the way you've explained it in this post, maybe they'll be willing to consider making an exception. IMHO, there's a world of difference between reading about witchcraft and practicing witchcraft. I would think that a reasonable parent would be open to using this as an opportunity to discuss their beliefs, and how their beliefs differ from those in the stories. Maybe if you offer to translate the subject matter in some of the stories, and send it home with the students on the day it was covered, parents would be able to debrief with their children.

 

You didn't mention the age of the students, but if they are in the logic stage, they should be able to work through the differences between what they believe, and what others believe.

 

I think the key is communication. Make sure the parents are on board. If you make the decision without consulting them, there may be a negative backlash.

 

Lori

[SonshineLearner]

Mu husband used Pimsleur for learning Russian and found it very good for learning conversational Russian. And, he speaks with a great accent.(So he's been told by Russians...they always ask him..."Are you Russian??" You start speaking back to the cd from the very start. Perhaps using something like this??

Carrie:-)

[klmama]

We don't do Harry Potter or Halloween. I think the books you described sound weird, just as Muzzy is weird. It didn't stop us from watching it and learning. We just discussed the weirdness (in English) and went from there to learn the Spanish.

 

The stories you referenced are a cultural thing, and they should be learned in that context. They don't show the young hero/heroine becoming or wishing to be vampires, ogres, witches, etc., do they? That's the problem with HP, as far as I'm concerned. Just having those characters in the stories is, again, weird, but if that's what it takes to have a great French program, I'd go for it. I would, however, want to know in detail ahead of time so I could make my own decision. It would annoy me if I paid money for a class expecting something tamer and later found out my dc were using such material without my knowledge or consent.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

I'd review the materials myself and decide on a by-case basis. We're so conflicted in this area . . . there's no telling what I'd decide.

 

You're talking to me: I don't "do" Harry Potter or things that are to my mind foul, witchy, et c. On the other hand we do Roman/Greek history and everything cultural/religious that that implies. My daughter is an avid mythology buff.

 

The reason I do not do HP is because my daughter is the super creative type and wants to be . . . nay, make that she *is* everything she reads. She *is* the detective. She *is* the vet. She *is* the super-hero. You are what you eat. She is what she reads. That makes her a candidate for embracing and becoming things I don't want. Sometimes it really depends on the character, though. We love the Hobbit; Lord of the Rings; King Arthur; Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe stuff. How we came to decide one is okay and one isn't is really almost a mystery to me: something to do with religious/biblical analogies and morals to the story.

 

So, would I let my daughter use the books? I'd review them on my own and would decide from there. There is a secret, mysterious, and remarkably fluid line -- not really flluid. Wavy, curvy, more like -- drawn in my psyche and if it didnt' cross that line . . . we'd see.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

The stories you referenced are a cultural thing, and they should be learned in that context. They don't show the young hero/heroine becoming or wishing to be vampires, ogres, witches, etc., do they?

 

Not that I can see. Btw, the girl whose parents are vampires is quite unpleasant. She's always bickering, and being a pest to the other kids. So that might help in debriefing, maybe?

 

The kids I'm going to be teaching are between 7 and 12. In France (and quite often in Quebec, although maybe not as pervasive) those ages are considered the *magic* age. So many novels will deal with magicians, weird circus characters, and the like. And as coffeefreak pointed out, it's more Disney-esque than anything else. In every French book my kids have used, we've seen witches, sometimes good, sometimes evil, but in a comics book kind of way.

 

I will of course present the situation to the parents. They are the ultimate decision-takers after all. But they also know that I will walk away if I'm stuck with the lesser program. It's just too stressful for me for a variety of reasons.

[Nestof3]

I strongly object to the first one without considering any of the others.

 

Foreign language is not a requirement to a decent income or a fulfilled life. A foreign language can always be learned later in life or even in college -- you do not need a foreign language to enter community college, and you can transfer from a comm. college to a 4-year university.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I strongly object to the first one without considering any of the others.

 

Foreign language is not a requirement to a decent income or a fulfilled life. A foreign language can always be learned later in life or even in college -- you do not need a foreign language to enter community college, and you can transfer from a comm. college to a 4-year university.

 

Unfortunately, that's not up for debate. It's where I live. French *is* the official language here, and you're getthoizing your kids if you don't let them learn it. And on top of that, it was made into law! (Bill 101). If the kids were in school, they would have to go to French schools, not English schools. They would become bilingual automatically. In fact, many English speakers don't homeschool because they can't teach their kids French.

[Renee in NC]

Never mind.

 

Are there any other options besides these two?

[LBC]

I strongly object to the first one without considering any of the others.

 

Foreign language is not a requirement to a decent income or a fulfilled life. A foreign language can always be learned later in life or even in college -- you do not need a foreign language to enter community college, and you can transfer from a comm. college to a 4-year university.

 

Quebec is a French speaking province, so I can see where it would be required that they learn the language in order to be considered "educated". I remember driving through Quebec when I was about 11, and stopping to get ice cream. We couldn't even order, since the server didn't know English, and we didn't know French. I would want to learn French if I lived in Quebec. Out here in western Canada it's not such a big issue.

 

Lori

[Nestof3]

Yes, I can see why children should learn the language of the country they live in. I was speaking of my own experience in the US.

[LaxMom]

I have no objection (my 7 y.o. is a huge HP buff...) but I do have a question that I think is relevant: If these are French materials - as opposed to Quebecois - isn't that going to create a functional language problem anyway? To me, that would be the baseline problem, then the issue of ideology.

 

I have been in the same dilemma before and have been fortunate to find alternate materials that to not explicitly teach a worldview that conflicts with ours, but it is terribly frustrating. Still, the issue of the differences between Parisian and Quebecois language and culture - particularly when French language is provincially mandated - would be the total deal-breaker. Unless, of course, they would be just as happy with your children learning Haitian French (which seems ridiculous, given the, uh, "nationalist" culture of Quebec).

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I have no objection (my 7 y.o. is a huge HP buff...) but I do have a question that I think is relevant: If these are French materials - as opposed to Quebecois - isn't that going to create a functional language problem anyway? To me, that would be the baseline problem, then the issue of ideology.

 

 

French differs from most languages (especially English!) in that there's a supervising body that -well - supervises what happens to the language! It's called l'Académie Française. In that regard, there does exist an international French. In theory, that's what's taught in school. In practise, it's not entirely that though, since not that many teachers actually know it. But Québécois is not a written language, only spoken. Sure, some novels have been written in 'joual' but it's similar to an English novel where someone would speak Cockney. So the written form is international. And the spoken one also has an international version, which is what is taught in the French material. Anyway, none of the parents are interested in the kids learning 'joual'. I don't even speak it myself.

 

Since the kids will have Quebecois teachers (a friend and I) we can easily pinpoint the differences. So there's no real problem there.

[WTMCassandra]

Well, I would try really hard to make another French program work. When I was in high school and college, we used texts from major publishers like Scott Foresman and Heinle and Heinle. French isn't all that rare a language, so I would encourage you to continue to look for another text. That may not be what you want to hear, and I'm sorry.

 

However, if you have become convinced that this program from France with the objectionable material is the absolutely best, I think you should present the parents with your findings. I would list what programs you evaluated and why they don't measure up. I would also explain the cultural differences--that this material is very common in France--like you explained to us.

 

Then, I believe the next step would be to see how much of the objectionable material you can skip. What you absolutely cannot skip, I would recommend that you notify the parents ahead of time so that they can discuss it with their children at home. I would also encourage you to allow parents to sit in on the class if they wish (assuming they keep quiet in the back and don't interfere).

 

We actually use a piano music series where there seems to be one song in each book that we find objectionable. This drives me crazy, yet I believe this is the best series for us to use, so we either omit the song or change the words (depending on the situation). So I have sympathy for you, really.

 

But the bottom line is that I would not want my children subjected to a large amount of what I consider objectionable just to learn a language. I would want to know that the teacher searched high and low to avoid as much objectionable material as possible.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Cleo,

I like it! My kids would LOVE it! Comic books are a big hit here. Will you move to New Mexico and teach my kids? :) I don't know as much French as I do German. Would book 1 have enough instruction for someone who doesn't speak French fluently? Or are the instructor's guides in French too? My girls want to learn french, but I haven't found anything that I felt comfortable with on their level (3rd and K).

 

You know, I might be tempted into running an online co-op... ;-)

Once I get all the teacher gizmos, I'll need to find ways to get paid back! That stuff, as interesting as it is, is not free :-(

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

All you can do is present the program, pros and cons to your group. (If you are still willing to teach it that is...) And let them decide.

 

Any way you can teach French from the Asterix cartoons? Can you purchase the government program for your coop?

 

It is not a coop program but have you considered Rosetta Stone?

 

Best of luck!

[cathmom]

You are the teacher and you choose the program that fits the goals you have. It seems to be that beggars can't be choosers LOL.