Help with Composition!!

[IanSebast]

My 12 yo DS is a dedicated, smart and cooperative student. He’d go with the flow and pretty much make an effort with whatever I throw at him. We started pretty late and I had heard wonderful things about Classical Composition so that’s what we started using. He’s doing well with it and actually likes it but I’m second guessing my decision and wondering if I made a mistake. We’re doing Fable/Narrative in a year but no matter how hard we work he’ll be behind and won’t finish the sequence. I don’t feel like he’ll start “composing” soon enough. That means he won’t get the benefit of the entire program. I wouldn’t mind switching curriculum right now if that meant helping him advance. Am I being impatient? Are there any programs out there that can help him progress a little faster? Any suggestions? I feel lost and, as you can see, very overwhelmed!! Please help! 

[8filltheheart]

It does not take using a progym program to become a successful writer.  Mastering basic concepts (sentence, paragraph, transitions, supporting quotes/ information, etc) allows the student to use their writing skills flexibly.  Having mastered basic concepts means they can write a narrative or a expository paper simply by altering the style.  The fundamentals behind their composition remain the same.  Sentences need to be complete thoughts.  Paragraphs need to contain related information.  Sentences and paragraphs need to be written in a way where the reader can easily follow the transition of ideas, etc.

IOW, drop Classical Composition and find a writing program that meets his current level or writing needs.  

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

It does not take using a progym program to become a successful writer.  Mastering basic concepts (sentence, paragraph, transitions, supporting quotes/ information, etc) allows the student to use their writing skills flexibly.  Having mastered basic concepts means they can write a narrative or a expository paper simply by altering the style.  The fundamentals behind their composition remain the same.  Sentences need to be complete thoughts.  Paragraphs need to contain related information.  Sentences and paragraphs need to be written in a way where the reader can easily follow the transition of ideas, etc.

IOW, drop Classical Composition and find a writing program that meets his current level or writing needs.  

All of this. And I will even say: a student can become an excellent writer without any writing program at all.

[IanSebast]

15 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

It does not take using a progym program to become a successful writer.  Mastering basic concepts (sentence, paragraph, transitions, supporting quotes/ information, etc) allows the student to use their writing skills flexibly.  Having mastered basic concepts means they can write a narrative or a expository paper simply by altering the style.  The fundamentals behind their composition remain the same.  Sentences need to be complete thoughts.  Paragraphs need to contain related information.  Sentences and paragraphs need to be written in a way where the reader can easily follow the transition of ideas, etc.

IOW, drop Classical Composition and find a writing program that meets his current level or writing needs.  

We’ve done a good job about learning and understanding grammatical concepts and their role in constructing good sentences. I guess I’m hoping for a good program that can tie it all together in an organized way. Can you recommend any programs? I’m open to suggestions so I can start a list! 

[IanSebast]

16 minutes ago, regentrude said:

All of this. And I will even say: a student can become an excellent writer without any writing program at all.

I just feel like he’ll benefit from one…even though we don’t have one at the moment 😂 

[Ellie]

58 minutes ago, regentrude said:

All of this. And I will even say: a student can become an excellent writer without any writing program at all.

Amen!

[Green Bean]

Jump In!- designed for middle schoolers 

WriteShop- look at the upper level Jr bks first then the “high school” one.

Winning With Writing- start pursuing at 5th to find a fit. Great sequence files

Edited January 30, 2023 by Green Bean

[Ellie]

The original Writing Strands, by Dave Marks. It is out of print, but you can still find it.

[8filltheheart]

Maybe Write Source?

Edited January 30, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Lori D.]

Possibly the Lantern English online classes? $65 per 8-week course, with instruction and feedback on papers.

Maybe this year (or into next year), depending on where he is at, several of these:
The Paragraph
The Composition
Expository Writing
Research Basics

And then in 7th or 8th grade, when he's ready, work through the Essay Basics series?

 

[Ting Tang]

There are multiple classical composition programs. Cottage Press doesn’t even start the stages beyond Fable/Narrative until the older grades. Classical Writing, too. I also have an outline of the progym you can find on the Internet. I learned you can apply the exercises in other subjects. I’m looking to reinstate the exercises. Personally, I think you could do all of the exercises without spending a whole year on each one (I think). Memoria Press has a schedule for everything that is very “track based,” and sometimes that makes it seem hard to “catch up.”

[Ting Tang]

Oh I think IEWs Classical progym doesn’t even start until high school. 

[Ting Tang]

You could also look at Michael Clay Thompson language arts. I just don’t think the only correct way to do the progym is to drag it out or do the same thing over and over…

[Lori D.]

9 hours ago, IanSebast said:

We’ve done a good job about learning and understanding grammatical concepts and their role in constructing good sentences. I guess I’m hoping for a good program that can tie it all together in an organized way. Can you recommend any programs? ...

Of the suggested programs above, Jump In would likely be closest to what you're looking for, if wanting to do it at home. It covers:
- all 4 types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive)
- guides the student through the thinking process of what to say and how to organize their thoughts
- focus is on solid paragraphs
- and then moves into multi-paragraph (like 3-paragraph, and eventually 5-paragraph) writing

It is from a Christian perspective, although that is mostly contained to a few of the suggested assignments that are in a list of choices of what to write about, so easy to skip if you don't want that.

Also, the program is designed to take 2 years -- but that is because after each unit, the program has you do 4 weeks of "free writes" from suggested prompts in the Teacher Guide. We skipped all of the free writes (we were using the original edition of the program, and the prompts were very lame and too similar), and instead, we would take a week and "wrote across the curriculum" -- in other words, we did other types of writing assignments to enhance learning in other subject areas. And completed Jump In in just 1 year.

Jump In is more informal in tone, and written directly to the student, so there is less direct "teaching" by the parent, but you would still want to be involved in the heavy thinking stages of the writing process (brainstorming, organizing, and revising).

In case it helps you as an overview, when I teach writing/composition (grades 7-12) at our homeschool co-op, I have the students work through writing as a multi-step process -- and I mentor HEAVILY in the heavy thinking stages of brainstorming/organizing and revising.

Writing Process:

1. brainstorming -- generating ideas

2. organizing -- sorting and arranging
a. sorting through the brainstorming and selecting what works together
b. arranging in a logical order
(stages #1 and #2 are heavy "thinking" stages that hopefully result in an outline, graphic organizer, or other "writing roadmap" that works for the student, so that the student has completed the thinking, and can move on to rough draft writing)

3. rough draft writing -- turning the outline/organization/writing roadmap into complete sentences and paragraphs
(this is NOT where the thinking happens -- that was back in stage #1 and #2 -- this is where the turning the points and examples already thought up and organized into a logical order (#2) into complete sentences and paragraphs)

4. revision -- big "fixes" (the "3 S's")
a. structure fixes -- add/remove/move around sentences/paragraphs for logical flow
b. sentence fixes -- fragments, run-ons, grammatical structural errors
c. style fixes -- vary sentence structure; vary word choice
(another heavy "thinking" stage, which really requires a lot of mentoring in the early years, as it is often very tough for students to see the big structural problems, or have the analysis skills well-developed enough to know if they have a complete thesis, or if they have developed an argument of support for their thesis)

5. proof-edit -- small "fixes"
punctuation, capitalization, spelling, typos, doubled word, missing word...
 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Lori D.

[IanSebast]

I want to thank all of you so much for taking the time to respond! I got several ideas to work with, which is a huge improvement from this morning! Thanks again for all the help!

Edited January 31, 2023 by IanSebast

[IanSebast]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

There are multiple classical composition programs. Cottage Press doesn’t even start the stages beyond Fable/Narrative until the older grades. Classical Writing, too. I also have an outline of the progym you can find on the Internet. I learned you can apply the exercises in other subjects. I’m looking to reinstate the exercises. Personally, I think you could do all of the exercises without spending a whole year on each one (I think). Memoria Press has a schedule for everything that is very “track based,” and sometimes that makes it seem hard to “catch up.”

Good to know!  Thanks

[IanSebast]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

Oh I think IEWs Classical progym doesn’t even start until high school. 

I don’t know much about IEW. Do you have to start from the beginning to be proficient?

[Green Bean]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:26 PM, IanSebast said:

I don’t know much about IEW. Do you have to start from the beginning to be proficient?

You need to start with Year 1 of whichever SSS you pick: A or B. Each Year 1 covers roughly the same Units, but uses more difficult source articles and moves quicker as one moves up. They are super nice to talk to, if you would prefer calling to discuss your needs. IEW also offers the first 3 weeks of any level as a free sample.

Progym is, in my opinionated, matters SO much opinion 😜, highly overrated and difficult to teach. If you choose that path, seriously consider online classes. Classical Academic Press and Memoria Press both have online classes for their respective programs.

Also, MP’s program has been described even by MP as more of a training to think than write program. Not a thing wrong with that at all, of course. But a while back, there was a thread on MP’s high school board of many parents complaining CC didn’t teach academic writing well (essays, etc.) and were all asking for programs to remediate that. I sound like I’m slamming which is not my intent. I have a high respect for MP and have used many of their materials over the years.

MCT is totally different from anything else. You really need to do both the grammar and writing books from the same level. It’s also kinda $$$. It’s fun to check out and might be just what you were looking for.

As always, the Golden Rule of Homeschooling applies: If it ain’t broke, don’t go looking to fix it! If CC is working great for him and you, then don’t worry about how many levels he gets through. Just keep at it.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Green Bean

[Green Bean]

And Lori D. is amazing so I would ignore me and listen to her. 😁

#LoriDismyhero

Edited January 31, 2023 by Green Bean

[Ting Tang]

5 hours ago, Green Bean said:

You need to start with Year 1 of whichever SSS you pick: A or B. Each Year 1 covers roughly the same Units, but uses more difficult source articles and moves quicker as one moves up. They are super nice to talk to, if you would prefer calling to discuss your needs. IEW also offers the first 3 weeks of any level as a free sample.

Progym is in my opinionated, matters SO much opinion 😜 highly overrated and difficult to teach. If you choose that path, seriously consider online classes. Classical Academic Press and Memoria Press both have online classes for their respective programs.

Also, MP’s program has been described even by MP as more of a training to think than write program. Not a thing wrong with that at all, of course. But a while back, there was a thread on MP’s high school board of many parents complaining CC didn’t teach academic writing well (essays, etc.) and were all asking for programs to remediate that. I sound like I’m slamming which is not my intent. I have a high respect for MP and have used many of their materials over the years.

MCT is totally different from anything else. You really need to do both the grammar and writing books from the same level. It’s also kinda $$$. It’s fun to check out and might be just what you were looking for.

As always, the Golden Rule of Homeschooling applies: If it ain’t broke, don’t go looking to fix it! If CC is working great for him and you, then don’t worry about how many levels he gets through. Just keep at it.

I still do not understand MP choosing topics or quotes without children being expected to have researched them. Very nuanced topics or quotes. It gives me agenda vibes, just like you hear about public schools, except in an opposite direction. It’s just a feeling, but classical writing doesn’t have to be difficult. I also know very little about IEW. I don’t think starting something at age 12 should mean you can never finish the program, either. Do a few exercises from each level before the latter levels, depending on the student.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Green Bean]

nm.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Green Bean

[8filltheheart]

Teaching writing does not need to be difficult.  It does not require working through a bunch of sequential books.  It requires students to understand the writing process and to know how to use those skills.  

I owned both IEW and Classical Writing (Homer) at some point in the last 28 yrs, and I thought both were awful.  IEW turns writing into a formula and Homer made writing seem like it required some convoluted process.  A simple book like Write Source gives an overview of the writing process and reviews different types of styles (narrative, expository, persuasive, etc).

ETA:  I just read what I posted and realized that it sounds rather harsh.  I'm in a hurry, so no time to edit it.  But, basically, the idea that a student needs to work through all of IEW or CW is at the core not true.  Different kids bring in different levels of ability.   I remember when I interacted with the author of CW and she insisted that it was necessary.  It just really makes me wonder how they view writing development so rigidly.  Writing is a process that is not at all similar to learning math facts.

Edited January 31, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Green Bean]

I agree with 8. In my 20 yrs my biggest frustration has been writing materials that make the process all mysterious and complicated. Shall we add expensive to that list too?

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Green Bean

[Momto6inIN]

I agree with everyone else who says it's not necessary to use a "program" to teach good writing. It's totally not!

BUT I also can sympathize with the OP that sometimes from a teacher's perspective it really does *feel* necessary in order to feel confident that I'm helping my students in the best way possible.

OP, I don't think there's really a way to be "behind" in writing. There is room for improvement and maturity and practice - yes. But I think Hemingway would have said he had room for improvement and maturity and practice too. Your kid is not "behind". There is no standard or across the board way of determining what a certain grade level's writing looks like. If you both like the program you're using and you are happy with the skills he's learning in it, then don't worry about how fast he completes it.

[lulalu]

Classical Composition is more of a thinking and writing curriculum than solely a writing curriculum. It (in my humble opinion) is worth keeping going at whatever pace you are at right now. Being behind isn't a problem if you focus on the thinking skills learned. You also don't have to complete each lesson in each level. 

For the writing skills like sentences, paragraphs, essays, etc. I have found narration (oral and written) to be sufficient at practicing these skills. I require several written narrations a week. 

[stlily]

I'm looking into Classical Composition as well, but we would also be starting "late". I found a schedule that lists the lessons you should cover and those you can skip to move through the program at a faster pace. I'm sorry I can't give credit to whomever created it, but I'll post it here for you. Maybe it'll help.

 

"Good Morning,

You've already received some good advice, and for the most part I would affirm what has been said by others. It can be difficult to skip stages in the Classical Composition program, but as already mentioned, you do not necessarily need to complete the early stages in their entirety. See below for an idea of what we think your student needs to accomplish in Fable and Narrative, in order to be successful in the later stages. There is also a list of lessons you could complete to cover the concepts listed.

Fable

·         Need to gain mastery of the 3 Narrative components covered

·         1. Recognition

·         2. Reversal

·         3. Suffering
Should be able to explain and provide examples of the various figures of description

·         Making flashcards of the definitions in the appendix could be helpful
Must possess understanding of the three forms of paraphrase

·         1. Reduction

·         2. Inversion

·         3. Beginning in the middle
Should begin formatting page properly, understanding punctuation, margins and paragraph breaks

Narrative

·         Need to gain a mastery of 9 Narrative components covered

·         1. Recognition

·         2. Reversal

·         3. Suffering

·         4. Agents

·         5. Action

·         6. Time

·         7. Place

·         8. Manner

·         9. Cause
Should be able to explain and provide examples of the various figures of description

·         Making flashcards of the definitions in the appendix could be helpful
Must possess understanding of the three (new) forms of paraphrase

·         1. Condensing the narrative

·         2. Changing the viewpoint

·         3. Inverting the sequence of events
Formatting should be continuing to improve

Chreia and Maxim will require student to form 8 paragraph essay with clear breaks of thought between each paragraph

Lessons to complete to cover the above material

·         Fable 1

·         Fable 4

·         Fable 5

·         Fable 8

·         Fable 9

·         Fable 20

·         Narrative 1

·         Narrative 10

·         Narrative 14

·         Narrative 17

·         Narrative 18

·         Narrative 20"

[MamaSprout]

I liked Fable level just to get reluctant writers to put words on the page. After that, we usually went a different direction. Lots of good suggestions above.