Literary Analysis - thesis driven? (? related to WWS3)

[Porridge]

I've noticed that the way WWS teaches literary analysis, there is no discussion of thesis. It's very different from how I approached these kinds of papers and analyses (way back when...).   I appreciated how the earlier levels of WWS introduced basic elements of fiction (protagnoist, conflict, etc.), but I also ended up teaching DD how to write a thesis driven paper about lit on my own (separate from WWS). DD is now in Level 3 of WWS (week 8-9, literary analysis of Benjamin Button), and there's still no mention of thesis.

Is a non-thesis driven lit analysis an actual entity in academic writing? Or is it just that WWS3 isn't ready to introduce that level of thinking yet?

If it's not an actual thing, I think I'll have DD adapt weeks 8-9 into a thesis driven essay.

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I dont use WWS, so I'm not sure what she is being taught. I teach lit analysis essays as having a controlling thesis for which they need to show evidential support.

[Farrar]

My experience of the handful of students I've known who came from using WWS is that they can't write the type of papers that high school, college, AP exams, even more freeform things like college applications, etc. all require. I think the best approaches to writing will teach kids to mold their writing to other formats and not adhere to a single structure. But if you're only going to teach one structure, then surely the one kids will have to do most often - essays with a thesis - would be the one to hammer in a formula for. And yet... I just honestly don't get it as a program. There are writing programs I'm not a personal fan of, but which I feel like I get, like IEW, which I'll even recommend to the right person. But I don't think I even get WWS and I haven't been impressed with the (admittedly small sample size) results I've seen.

[Roadrunner]

WWS was developed as a middle school program. Many kids found it difficult as middle schoolers so her recommendations shifted, but original intent was to finish it in middle school and then move on to rhetoric. If you look at WTMA classes and what books are used for rhetoric courses, you will see thesis based writing. 
 

[kokotg]

My sample size is even smaller, but my WWS kids (i.e. my own kids) have been prepared for and done very well with high school and college level writing. But, yeah, we've used WWS as a middle school course (and into 9th grade sometimes). I don't know that I even noticed they don't teach thesis (I probably noticed, but it's been a few years), but I see that as a high school skill that I start hammering into them by the time they get to 9th grade lit. 

[Guest]

@kokotg what did you do after WWS?

[Roadrunner]

24 minutes ago, WTM said:

@kokotg what did you do after WWS?

Lively Art of Writing is a wonderful little book that will really teach you how to approach thesis based essays. Maybe a bit outdated but will get the job done. Then you can just apply those skills to various writing assignments.

https://www.amazon.com/Lively-Writing-Lucile-Vaughan-Payne/dp/0451627121/ref=asc_df_0451627121/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312050258636&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=935171058591932886&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013653&hvtargid=pla-571689721115&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61316181039&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312050258636&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=935171058591932886&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013653&hvtargid=pla-571689721115
 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Lively Art of Writing is a wonderful little book that will really teach you how to approach thesis based essays. Maybe a bit outdated but will get the job done. Then you can just apply those skills to various writing assignments.

https://www.amazon.com/Lively-Writing-Lucile-Vaughan-Payne/dp/0451627121/ref=asc_df_0451627121/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312050258636&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=935171058591932886&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013653&hvtargid=pla-571689721115&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61316181039&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312050258636&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=935171058591932886&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013653&hvtargid=pla-571689721115
 

Thank you! Yes we did LAOW last year! It was great. 
 Over 5-7th, DD did WWS1-2, LAOW, small pieces of MP classical composition Chreia and Maxim, and a mishmash of mom directed writing (literary analysis). 

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, WTM said:

Thank you! Yes we did LAOW last year! It was great. 
 Over 5-7th, DD did WWS1-2, LAOW, small pieces of MP classical composition Chreia and Maxim, and a mishmash of mom directed writing (literary analysis). 

We didn’t do separate writing  instruction past middle school. Mine did Great Books courses, and we felt the amount of writing in those courses was more than enough. 
You can just apply those skills learned in LAOW to literature. Or if you want a writing curriculum, look at what WTMA uses for rhetoric sequence in high school. 

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, WTM said:

@kokotg what did you do after WWS?

We usually haven't done a formal writing curriculum after WWS....I guess that's not entirely true; my oldest kid went through A Workbook for Arguments, and my current 11th grader is doing AP lang using The Brief Bedford Reader. But mostly they just do a lot of writing in different subjects; we do a lot of AP social sciences and English at home, so there's necessarily a lot of practice with argumentative writing built in to those. 

[mlktwins]

I'll be honest.  We did WWS2 in 9th grade (my boys' least favorite subject all along is writing).  We read, but skipped doing, the literary analysis section.  We also did Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings and Windows to the World.  My boys went on to do 7 Lantern English classes in 10th and 11th (some literature, research, and expository/persuasive essays).  We are doing something at home this year.  My boys, even though they did WWS 2 in 9th and didn't do WWS3, are good writers and scored very high on their AP Exam (World: Modern).  So I guess they did ok even though they didn't do that section of WWS2.

As they are seniors now, I look back and realize I stressed out about a lot of things that eventually worked themselves out in the end :-).

[Malam]

On 9/17/2022 at 9:31 AM, Farrar said:

There are writing programs I'm not a personal fan of, but which I feel like I get

Which programs are you a fan of?

On 9/17/2022 at 8:07 PM, mlktwins said:

scored very high on their AP Exam (World: Modern)

I'm pretty sure graders score based on specific, standardized criteria rather than overall writing style

Edited September 23, 2022 by Malam

[kokotg]

5 hours ago, Malam said:

 

I'm pretty sure graders score based on specific, standardized criteria rather than overall writing style

Yes, but the standardized criteria does include writing a thesis statement and using evidence to support the thesis. I believe the AP lit exam is the only one that rewards the quality of the overall writing (and not a whole lot there, either. But these are essays written in 40 minutes or so, so that makes sense).

[Farrar]

7 hours ago, Malam said:

Which programs are you a fan of?

None of them?

I mean, that's a glib response and not totally true. I really like Brave Writer for the younger years. There are some specific individual resources that I think are really good, like They Say, I Say. And there are programs I don't love that I do think really work for certain teachers and students, like IEW or EIW. However, the number one element of good writing instruction in my view is quality feedback from an instructor (or an active peer group sometimes in the case of creative work). 

[MamaSprout]

We did WWS3 as a stand alone in middle school (w/o doing WWS1 or 2).  Kiddo had already done LAoW and we ended the WW3 year with They Say, I Say. It seemed to all compliment each other well.

I guess we also did most of America Reads British Lit the year we did WWS3? That's one of the few books dd wanted to keep.

The next year we did World Lit using an older Holt textbook that had decent writing assignments in it and also wrote across the curriculum, then AP Lang sophomore year. Comparative SciFi Junior year (last year of high school).

I teach/ have taught comp from grades 4 (homeschool co-op) through 300 level college classes, so I maybe inserted thesis writing where needed? I don't recall, but WWS3 suited our needs for that year. It got done. We didn't do every assignment on every page, though. ETA We did Rhetoric Alive with a small group of friends as an elective the year we did World Lit. It made a nice prequel to AP Lang (Blue Tent) the next year.

ETA2 late elementary/ middle school was a mash up of Writing & Rhetoric, Lightening Lit American (with composition assignments but not comprehension questions), Windows to the World, and Warriner's 3rd course.

 

Dd was accelerated in LA because there was a lack of local homeschoolers her age, and language arts is more fun with friends. She got thrown into my co-op classes "sink or swim". Fortunately, she swam.

Edited September 24, 2022 by MamaSprout
old memory & glass of wine