ETHICS question (LOADS of christian content!)

[Heather in Neverland]

So now that I am finished with my Christian Ethics class, I thought it might be interesting to post a few of the discussion questions that I found particularly thought-provoking just for the heck of it. Here is conundrum #1:

 

THE GOVERNMENT DECLARES THAT CHRISTIANS MAY NOT HOLD CHURCH SERVICES AND MAY NOT BAPTIZE CONVERTS, AND THREATENS TO EXECUTE THE PASTORS WHO LEAD SUCH SERVICES AND BAPTISMS AND TO IMPRISON ALL ATTENDEES. YOU ARE A LAYPERSON. DO YOU ENCOURAGE YOUR CHURCH TO DISOBEY BY HOLDING SECRET, "UNDERGROUND" CHURCH SERVICES AND/OR BAPTISMS OR DO YOU ENCOURAGE YOUR PASTOR TO PRACTICE "CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE" AND MAKE A STATEMENT WITH PUBLIC CHURCH SERVICES AND/OR BAPTISMS?

 

Let those brain juices flow.......:D

[Miss Marple]

The persecution of the early church did push it "underground"; however, the Apostles and other leaders were known by the authorities. So maybe both options would be appropriate - much would depend on the abilities and convictions of the individual, also. Some people would be more cut out for the "civil disobedience" role than others I would suspect. There is scriptural/historical basis for both actions (Daniel, Stephen, etc.)

 

Sounds like an interesting class :001_smile:

[Tree House Academy]

Something like this is unimaginable in our time. However, in the days of Paul, it was life...and eventually death. Many Christians were persecuted for their preaching and beliefs. Paul, as Saul, even helped to stone to death Christians before he converted. I guess my answer is that I just can't imagine what that would be like.

 

I think that, most of all, I would not push my PASTOR to make his services public. I think it would be up to individuals to decide how to hold church meetings...and then up to individuals to decide to attend the public or private meetings. I would love to say, hands down, that I would be standing there risking my life for the God I love the way that He sent His son to die for ME...but alas, my human flesh yells, "what about your children??? You couldn't put your life in danger because of the government....worship your God in silence." Ah....but is that what God wants from us? I think not. I think, as Christians, our mission is to spread the Word. Oh the nasty wiles of the flesh.... :(

[Shenan]

I believe the Lord already knows what decision one would make/what is on ones heart and is going to use that to His advantage either way.

 

Habakkuk 1:5b "for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you."

 

There are probably those who would see a better benefit to going underground (baptizing and saving souls) and those who would make martyrs of themselves in order to draw more public attention and awareness to God. Additionally saving more souls.

 

The Lord already knows ones heart and will use it to His advantage in order to glorify Him. I see advantages to both positions. Personally, I would probably go the underground/secretive route...I think having children influences me to go this way. If it was just me, no husband and 0 children, I probably would go the public route of defiance. The Lord will know how to use me to glorify Him.

 

"but the just shall live by his faith" Habakkuk 2:4b

 

Phillipians 1:20-21

"According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

[beansprouts]

Like Shenan says, the answer will vary for different parties. There is no ethical rule that can be applied across the board here. I would pray for my pastors and encourage them to seek God's will.

[3lilreds in NC]

I don't actually think this is unthinkable today. In our country, yes, but certainly not worldwide. Christians are persecuted in many countries, and you *can* be put to death for professing faith in Christ.

 

The first course of action would be to pray, pray, PRAY and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I believe that most of the time, church would go underground - baptism and preaching the Word MUST NOT STOP. But, I think it would be more effective to go underground and continue to spread the gospel that it would for all pastors to get themselves killed by practicing civil disobedience.

 

However - there is no doubt that some would be martyred. I believe that God could send someone out to die for Him, publicly. We find that frightening to think about, perhaps, but if it were His will - the reward is to be with Him in heaven so how could that end result be bad? You'd just have to trust that God knows what He's doing and if He tells you to do something that flies in the face of all earthly reason - there must be an unearthly reason for it because His ways are higher than ours.

 

So, I don't think there is one right answer. I believe there would be a huge underground movement and also some public professions of faith, and people would die for Christ, as they have for centuries.

[FO4UR]

We have underground churches today, and I believe they are acting in obedience to God. In fact, we sent a few of our church members to a foriegn country to do some leg work for a church that couldn't be done by the people there for fear of being handed over to the gov't.

 

At the same time, we are commanded to be a LIGHT on a hill - not hidden.

 

I think God has plans for those underground churches. They are waiting for God to move in their countries, and in the meantime they are experiencing great revival.

 

Jesus Himself told His disciples not to speak of the things which happened, and He was certainly not in disobedience to the Father.

[Laura K (NC)]

I think, actually, that this is inevitable. I am trying to train my boys, in fact, to be strong enough in their faith that they have the strength to die for it.

 

There's a great book by Shusaku Endo called Silence, in which the Catholic Church is persecuted in Japan. A priest has to make a tough ethical call with regard to persecution. It isn't the same ethical call -- it's actually a much tougher one. That's a book that sticks with you over many years.

 

I have no trouble breaking the civil law when the law doesn't conform to the natural or moral law.

 

In the early Church, St. Polycarp, when he was an old man, was convinced by some of the Christians near him to flee the city and impending martyrdom. The story goes that Bishop Polycarp was found by Roman soldiers and escorted back. He was questioned about his faith and he answered truthfully. It was said that he was asked to renounce belief in Christ. He replied, "For eighty-six years I have served Jesus Christ, and he has never done me wrong. How can you expect me to betray and blaspheme my King who has saved me?"

 

I think this is the right approach. Polycarp was a leader, a bishop, of the Church in Smyrna. He fled and encouraged other Christians to flee... not primarily to save their lives for the sake of their lives, because if this was the case, Polycarp would have blasphemed his Lord for the sake of his own life. All that is asked of us is that we devote our lives to Christ. If the true kingdom can be promoted in secret, or be wiped out if made public, it is better to go underground and redouble the effort, and if we are exposed, then to make a noble witness and a fearless martyrdom.

 

Sometimes we are called to stay, like Thomas More or Thomas Becket, and not run from the persecution of the State, when our role is to stay and assert the State is wrong. Sometimes, though, we are called to hide, like the Christians who hid the Jews during the Holocaust, because to do right and to proclaim the saving power of Christ is better done in secret than not at all. As you (and maybe some others?) said, prayer will tell.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Laura K (NC)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Something like this is unimaginable in our time. (

 

We attended a small church in Berlin, Germany that lived through this from the mid 1930s through the end of the war. This church was the parish of Martin Niemoeller, a figure in the Confessing Church and colleague of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

 

I don't have my church history book at hand, so please forgive any errors. But this is the general history. After figures in the Confessing Church movement began to be arrested, the church began to have daily vigils where they would read the names of all those arrested and pray. This went on for a while, then the meetings were forbidden. They chose to continue by having a daily communion, and continuing to read the names of the arrested and pray. The church even issued id cards to active members of the parish.

 

Our children's church met in Niemoeller's dining room in the parish house. There were display boards on the wall with much of this history listed, including actual id cards. This was the room where Bonhoeffer and another friend were held for several hours when they arrived for a meeting with Niemoeller on the day he was arrested. It was probably only the wealth and connections of this particular parish that prevented them all being carted off. (The cemetery was quite a who's who.)

 

All of which is to say that it isn't that unimaginable. I would say that it is every person's right and obligation to stand for their beliefs. That does, however, involve accepting the consequences of those choices. Niemoeller spent a long time in Sachsenhausen prison camp and Bonhoeffer was shot just before the end of the war.

[Heather in Neverland]

Man, I wish you ladies had been in my class! The discussion wasn't nearly as lively (I was the only woman :tongue_smilie:). I agree that it is happening already around the world and could happen here someday. How far would I be willing to go for my faith? Would I die for it?

 

I get Voice of the Martyr magazine and every time I am overwhelmed. We have such freedom here and some of us still have trouble professing our faith. In others countries they are being tortured and dying for it.

[PariSarah]

. . . by which I mean that all Christians should be willing to die for their faith, if called upon (by God) to do so, but that martyrdom is not to be sought. Some people, though, experience revelation prompting them to take a public stand which they know will result in their own death, but I don't believe that is the normal, everyday calling of Christians.

 

So in that situation, I would encourage Christians to go underground, to protect their own lives as best they can without denying the gospel, but to be ready for martyrdom should God call for it, either by circumstances or by special revelation.

 

A number of my fellow congregants in Paris experienced religious persecution in their home countries. Some were actually tortured, some just threatened, and some belonged to underground churches. Their witness was humbling.

[Chris in VA]

Just in case some of you aren't familiar with Voice of the Martyrs--here's a link.

 

 

It's quite an eye-opener if you believe there's little or no persecution today. I highly recommend their magazine. It's free, and very powerful.

[hose]

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&length=short&lang=en&idelement=5689

 

Compass Direct gives up to date information about Christians undergoing persecution and martyrdom.

 

It is very humbling.

 

The work of these organizations spur me to pray for the persecuted church on a daily basis.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I haven't read any other answers yet, but I know what my non-mainstream Christian religion would do as well as most of the members. The scriptures are very clear that such a thing can happen and that regardless we're to obey God over man. And God is clear that we are to "not forsake the gathering" of ourselves (Heb 10:24-25), are to continue preaching the Good News to ALL the inhabited earth (and then the end will come) and part of preaching is to follow it up with teaching then dedication symbolized by baptism (Matt 24:14, Matt 28:19-20).

 

However, I don't think this means it has to be done in an "in your face" manner. In the past, members of our religion have both gone underground, such as in countries where we were thrown into concentration camps during WWII and at other times have continued to meet in our normal buildings such as more recently in Georgia (the country, not state). Currently, there are 30 countries where members of our religion are "underground." Those "underground" are still doing what God commands just differently than those of us here do it. I think it all depends, but there are a few considerations. One would be the sanctity of life. Another would be what allows the ability to continue following God's commands the best. I'm positive there are many more considerations. I think the situation has to be prayerfully considered. If/when it goes haywire in this country, I will follow the arrangements of the "ones taking the lead."

 

ETA: during times of being "underground," the number of members have continued to grow, proving that there are definitely those meeting, preaching, teaching, dedicating, etc. Being underground changes how things are done but they are still done.

Edited December 15, 2008 by 2J5M9K

[Cheryl in NM]

We are commanded to follow men's laws and to trust that God is working through our government. God will use us as he sees fit no matter the circumstances. I would practice my religion in secret in the privacy of my home and teach my children the same. I would trust that if God wanted me to share his word with someone that He would make it come to pass. By doing this I would be leading by quiet example.

 

And of course, it goes without saying, pray, pray and pray some more!

[Murphy101]

I would fully expect priests to go into hidding and offering mass out of various homes and other hidden methods as they have done for centuries when such things came to pass.

 

I would fully expect that some Catholics would be more open/vocal in the fight for faith than others. Not really a bad thing, just stating the obvious that each person is called in different, but important ways.

 

The amazing priests in China and other areas are prime current examples.

 

As for what *I* would do?

 

I don't know. I imagine be scared for my children mostly. Quietly teach them the faith as best I could at home. Support my Church/priests as best I could.