I might need a language arts revamp?

[Janeway]

I used to use BJU English followed up by Jump In (the original version) for writing in middle school years. And my older kids all went back to school for high school. They are both rotten writers. And now. my 12 yr old and 10 yr old are struggling big time. I started with BJU with both of them. Then, I started TGTB about two years ago. But now, their writing is awful. I am worried they are headed down the same paths as their older siblings. I am unsure what to do. Maybe I should give it another year and then consider something different? I am unsure what path to take next. I already looked at WWS for the older child and I think it is way over his head. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Janeway

[freesia]

I would stop whatever you are doing and just work on good strong paragraphs with them until they get it. We’ve done IEW followed by Jump In and had great results. But I think the key was working on strong paragraphs. Do you ever have them rewrite their paragraphs? 
 

Sit with them and do the pre-writing with them—even filling out the graphic organizer. Then have them write. When their paragraphs are solid, slowly hand over pre-writing—still brainstorm but have them write. Model asking questions about the topic so that they internalize them. If they have trouble with organizing paragraphs, cut up a paragraph and have them try to arrange it in a good way. Read their paragraphs out loud to them—often kids catch what they are doing wrong this way. 
 

A few times a week do sentence play—write a basic sentence—the boy walked—and have them write it with more specific nouns and verbs, added clauses and phrases and then mixing up the order ( build up to that.) Occasionally have them do a free write ( Bravewriter and Jump In have topics.)

Read out loud to them so they can hear good language. 
Once they have good paragraphs, Jump In should  work fine. 

[Janeway]

46 minutes ago, freesia said:

I would stop whatever you are doing and just work on good strong paragraphs with them until they get it. We’ve done IEW followed by Jump In and had great results. But I think the key was working on strong paragraphs. Do you ever have them rewrite their paragraphs? 
 

Sit with them and do the pre-writing with them—even filling out the graphic organizer. Then have them write. When their paragraphs are solid, slowly hand over pre-writing—still brainstorm but have them write. Model asking questions about the topic so that they internalize them. If they have trouble with organizing paragraphs, cut up a paragraph and have them try to arrange it in a good way. Read their paragraphs out loud to them—often kids catch what they are doing wrong this way. 
 

A few times a week do sentence play—write a basic sentence—the boy walked—and have them write it with more specific nouns and verbs, added clauses and phrases and then mixing up the order ( build up to that.) Occasionally have them do a free write ( Bravewriter and Jump In have topics.)

Read out loud to them so they can hear good language. 
Once they have good paragraphs, Jump In should  work fine. 

Writing really is not my thing. My writing was always fine, but I have no clue how to teach it. 

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

Writing really is not my thing. My writing was always fine, but I have no clue how to teach it. 

Oh, ok. Look at IEW. Watch the videos with your child. It will help you and is good for building those paragraph skills. IEW really focuses on equipping the teacher. It’s very straight forward. Eventually, though, you should consider something like Lantern English classes or some other online class that does revisions. It’s hard to learn to write well without feedback and revisions because you don’t know what you are doing well or practice redoing your weak bits. 

[Slache]

Seconding IEW.

[Green Bean]

I can relate. I would toss BJU in a minute. BTDT, waste of money and time.

I use Writing Skills by EPS Books to start with. My oldest son's special private school used it so we just kept on with it. The main book is worth having as a reference. The wkbks do not have answer keys because you really do not need one. I can make one for you, though, if you feel you do. The books start out with quite a bit of simple grammar, as most English programs do because good writing does flow from a good grammar base. Seriously, these are not that costly and are simple even for the writing phobic parent to use. Start with Book A and move through at your kiddos' pace.

https://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/literacy/grammar-writing/writing-skills-2nd-edition/about-the-program

Basic paragraph form:

Topic: Cats

TS: Cats are special

DS 1: They purr.

DS 2: They are soft.

DS 3: They are nice to cuddle with.

CS: Cats are my favorite animal.

Write in paragraph form. Once they are good at this, ask for one additional detail about their main detail and build from there.

WWE (long ago; not sure it helped anything) and WWS (just started this year) are fantastic! It looks like it would be over their head but it is broken down so small that even my ASD kid is succeeding.

If yours struggle with even coming up with a good sentence, I would suggest an MP lit guide because the kids have to answer in good sentences. You write it down, they copy.

Another option would be Evan-Moor's Write a Super Sentence followed by Paragraph Writing, then Writing Fabulous Sentences and Paragraphs. These are very non-intimidating. EM has so many fabulous resources in addition to these like Daily 6-Trait Writing, Daily Writing Prompts, etc..

https://www.evan-moor.com/write-a-super-sentence-grades-1-3-teacher-reproducibles-print

https://www.evan-moor.com/paragraph-writing-grades-2-4-teacher-reproducibles-print

https://www.evan-moor.com/writing-fabulous-sentences-paragraphs-grades-4-6-teacher-reproducibles-print

HTH!

Edited February 23, 2022 by Green Bean

[Clemsondana]

I struggled a bit with how to teach my kids to write because it came easily to me - I found it easier to teach the kids things that I struggled with because I had to think through it to learn it in the first place.  My kids got frustrated with writing, but I had some success with doing it orally.  Working on paragraphs was big.  Using MCT, we worked on the idea that a paragraph had one purpose/topic, and I'd ask what they wanted to write about (I might assign them to describe something, or write about something from history class).  They'd tell me the idea and then I'd ask for some facts that they wanted to convey.  Then we'd figure out how to write a thesis/main idea sentence and then some supporting sentences.  Then a conclusion sentence, until we got to bigger essays where it might be a sentence that linked to the next paragraph.  Because it was frustrating to redo bad writing, doing it out loud, sometimes with me scribing, seemed to help.  Good luck...this was one of the more frustrating things for us.  

[8filltheheart]

It sounds like your kids need a lot of direct hands on support.  I don't think just finding a writing curriculum and giving assignments is going to be an effective approach.  It sounds like they need scaffolded assignments that break things down step by step and given direct, immediate feedback on how well they manage to complete the single step before progressing to the next step.  In your daughter's writing sample, for example, she should have created a list of reasons of why she wants to go to Hawaii followed by you checking the list and discussing the list with her.  That list could be used to help her create an outline with more details about why she wants to do those things.  She gets immediate feedback on each step of creating her outline before she moves on.  Then the outline can help her write her sentences.  She needs to write a topic sentence with your help or that meets your approval before she starts writing the paragraph, etc.

I have found that kids who really cannot write a logically sequenced complete paragraph do well practicing with how-to paragraphs.  For example, how do you bake brownies.  They can create a step by step list and then turn the list into sentences with sequencing words.  You can use pictorial sequencing cards as writing assignments, etc.  (you can find some online, too)

[Green Bean]

What 8 is describing is how Writing Skills teaches things, btw.

EPS also has a series called The Paragraph Book. Each one focuses on a certain type of paragraph culminating on a longer work.

https://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/literacy/grammar-writing/the-paragraph-book/about-the-program

[freesia]

59 minutes ago, Green Bean said:

What 8 is describing is how Writing Skills teaches things, btw.

EPS also has a series called The Paragraph Book. Each one focuses on a certain type of paragraph culminating on a longer work.

https://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/literacy/grammar-writing/the-paragraph-book/about-the-program

Except that 8 talks about doing it with the child. Writing cannot be learned well without the kind of support 8 is talking about. 

[Janeway]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:32 AM, 8filltheheart said:

It sounds like your kids need a lot of direct hands on support.  I don't think just finding a writing curriculum and giving assignments is going to be an effective approach.  It sounds like they need scaffolded assignments that break things down step by step and given direct, immediate feedback on how well they manage to complete the single step before progressing to the next step.  In your daughter's writing sample, for example, she should have created a list of reasons of why she wants to go to Hawaii followed by you checking the list and discussing the list with her.  That list could be used to help her create an outline with more details about why she wants to do those things.  She gets immediate feedback on each step of creating her outline before she moves on.  Then the outline can help her write her sentences.  She needs to write a topic sentence with your help or that meets your approval before she starts writing the paragraph, etc.

I have found that kids who really cannot write a logically sequenced complete paragraph do well practicing with how-to paragraphs.  For example, how do you bake brownies.  They can create a step by step list and then turn the list into sentences with sequencing words.  You can use pictorial sequencing cards as writing assignments, etc.  (you can find some online, too)

We did an outline and everything. I think part of the problem here might be discipline. She really really wanted to get to her video games and kept crying and saying can’t she just skip it and can’t she just skip it over and over again. Crying has become her thing these days every time she doesn’t want to do something. She loves to read so when she goes off to her bedroom either she has snuck an iPad in there or she’s got books and she’ll sit and read. And she’ll just walk off on me. Finally, her dad is having to step in now when they do this. we decided we need to ban stuff like Nintendo and iPad on weekdays and when she’s refusing to come downstairs, he comes down and deals with it.

[8filltheheart]

So, in summation, there is no writing problem?

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

51 minutes ago, Janeway said:

We did an outline and everything.

If there was an adequate outline formed, her writing being as poor as what you’ve posted makes absolutely no sense & you are dealing with a behavioral / attitude problem that no writing program is going to fix. 

What did this outline look like? You said she was asked to write a four-paragraph essay. Did she have at least two ideas for body paragraphs, each with several supporting details? Did she have a hook & background information she planned to include about Hawaii or family travel for her introduction?

If she is well prepared to do all of this & formed an acceptable outline to prepare herself for writing, why would you accept what she handed in when it clearly does not satisfy the assignment?

[8filltheheart]

9 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

If there was an adequate outline formed, her writing being as poor as what you’ve posted makes absolutely no sense & you are dealing with a behavioral / attitude problem that no writing program is going to fix. 

What did this outline look like? You said she was asked to write a four-paragraph essay. Did she have at least two ideas for body paragraphs, each with several supporting details? Did she have a hook & background information she planned to include about Hawaii or family travel for her introduction?

If she is well prepared to do all of this & formed an acceptable outline to prepare herself for writing, why would you accept what she handed in when it clearly does not satisfy the assignment?

I agree 100% but I am not surprised by the response.  I have engaged in other threads with similar outcomes.

[Green Bean]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:38 PM, freesia said:

Except that 8 talks about doing it with the child. Writing cannot be learned well without the kind of support 8 is talking about. 

That was an implied given in my response. I assumed the child would be working with Mom. 

[8filltheheart]

47 minutes ago, Green Bean said:

That was an implied given in my response. I assumed the child would be working with Mom. 

That is an assumption that I have unfortunately learned never to make.  It tends to be the exception vs the rule.

[Janeway]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

So, in summation, there is no writing problem?

I think it is a combination. I think she has been trying to rush through things to get to what she wants, and as a result, she ignores all the instruction and such that has been given. I think we need to back up and work on a good paragraph and then move forward.  I need guidance in how to teach a good paragraph, and at the same time, I need to force her to slow down and not run off or rush through it because she wants to do something else.

[freesia]

13 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I think it is a combination. I think she has been trying to rush through things to get to what she wants, and as a result, she ignores all the instruction and such that has been given. I think we need to back up and work on a good paragraph and then move forward.  I need guidance in how to teach a good paragraph, and at the same time, I need to force her to slow down and not run off or rush through it because she wants to do something else.

Take it one paragraph at a time. Sit with her while she writes it. If she has an outline, you are most of the way there. Have her write a topic sentence. Then put her points into three sentences. Then she writes a closing sentence. Repeat over several days ( start with one paragraph at a time.). I have my kids do body paragraphs then into them conclusion. 
 

Once she can write the basic paragraph, then work on better words and sentence variety. 
 

In your situation, I would absolutely sit with her through it all. It doesn’t matter if it’s overwhelm or behavioral, sitting with her helps with both. 

[Classically Minded]

I recommend Writing Strands, the original books, which you can find used (maybe new) on Amazon or eBay.  The Evaluating Writing book will help you understand and know what you are looking for when you grade their papers.  Then there are levels 2-7 and Writing Exposition, (I don't think anyone needs Level 2).  Level 3 is basic instruction on forming sentences and paragraphs in an easy manner and you could go through the books fast.  They even have a Reading Strands book for fiction writing: Understanding Fiction and then Writing Strands: Creating Fiction.  Then there are some extra books I also bought: Essays on Writing and Communication and Interpersonal Relationships.

My DD18 did WWE in elementary and then nothing in middle school for writing, and did WWS in high school and she writes great!  However, I didn't want my son to go without a writing program through middle school, so we started him recently with Writing Strands 3 and I loved it so much, I bought all the rest of the levels and books.

I'm a natural writer and was in Honors English courses in high school but I have no idea how to teach writing.  I think for people like me who need that EASY, step-by-step approach, it can't be beat.  IEW was too much for me, I had borrowed the materials from a friend years ago and my brain still hurts thinking about it lol but everyone is different.  Writing Strands is independent, you just have to grade the work, which the Evaluating Writing book will help you do.

 

Here's some excerpts from SWB from the WTM 3rd edition about Writing Strands, on pg. 69:

"Books 3 and 4 deal with paragraph construction, composition organization, and other elements of style - voice, tense, person, descriptive technique, dialogue, and so on.  Book 5 begins dealing with the logical development of arguments."
 

There's a great chart on pg. 360 of the WTM that shows what grade to what level depending upon if you have a reluctant writer vs. an average writer.  Basically Level 3 is around 3rd grade-5th grade, Level 4 is around 4th grade-6th grade, Level 5 is around 5th grade-7th grade, Level 6 is around 7th-8th grade and Level 7 is after that, followed by the Writing Exposition book.  Although, the author of the series says you just go on to the next level when you finish the one before.

 

For the Writing Exposition book, quote from pg. 360:

"...the final book, Writing Exposition, which contains thirteen lessons that prepare the student for college-writing assignments (story analysis, reaction papers, term papers, evaluations).  Writing Exposition also reviews logic in writing (propaganda technique), library use, comparison and contrast, use of the first person in formal writing, and the SAT II writing test.  This is a course that can be used any time from eighth grade to senior high.  The assignments are demanding, and the student can take three or four weeks per lesson to complete each one of the lessons."

[Classically Minded]

4 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:

For video games… I have to either eliminate them on school days, or have a set time when they can be played with “after school hours”.  After 4 or whenever.  If the deal is to play after school is done the kids work always gets sloppy.  We have had to eliminate them entirely for now for other reasons.  My ds10 will do the whole reading in his room thing, running off.  I have to change iPad password often as he will watch and figure out passcode.  Dad has to sit with him for school at times to get him on the right track again.

We don't allow any "electronics" during the school week, only on weekends.  This has dramatically helped my DS9 do better work, stay focused and use his school evenings reading or doing a hobby.  Weekends is currently a free-for-all but he will take breaks from Minecraft, videos, etc. periodically lol.

[seemesew]

I have had 3 kids do the lower levels of TGAB and I think there is plenty of writing teaching in it, HOWEVER with some kids they will need you sitting by them and teaching it TO them not just having them do it independently. Since you don't know much about writing I suggest you read through the assignments with your kids, if you do it will help them and you will learn how to do a better job as well. I am also not a great writer but sitting with my kids and doing it together has really made a difference in not only my understanding but theirs as well.

I would also make them finishing school work not the criteria for getting to be on ipads or reading (or whatever they are hurrying for) and make QUALITY the criteria. SO if the kids hurry and get it all done but its clearly not their best or even semi best work then they don't get to do what they want and have to redo it. I know its harder to do this than for me to say it, but having a kiddo who also does that I do understand what this could mean on your end, for us it was MAJOR, major tantrums and sometimes breaking things but with consistency he now does a lot better.

[seemesew]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:03 AM, Janeway said:

I think it is a combination. I think she has been trying to rush through things to get to what she wants, and as a result, she ignores all the instruction and such that has been given. I think we need to back up and work on a good paragraph and then move forward.  I need guidance in how to teach a good paragraph, and at the same time, I need to force her to slow down and not run off or rush through it because she wants to do something else.

What level is she doing in tgab?

 

[Janeway]

16 hours ago, seemesew said:

What level is she doing in tgab?

 

She is finishing up level 3. 

[seemesew]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:55 AM, Janeway said:

She is finishing up level 3. 

Level 4 in tgab has a dedicated writing book aside from the coursebook so I would just keep going and when she does the writing in level 4 maybe try and sit with her? or at least preread the lessons so you know what they are expecting.