a subject turned toxic? breaking out of negativity

[EmilyGF]

DD13 and I seem to be at loggerheads with math. 

Any attempt at math seems to get her angry and me frustrated. We talk past each other; if I try to get her to tell back what I said, she tries but her words don't match what I (thought I) said.

FWIW, I have her learning math with a very expensive, but excellent, online company this year. She's learning a lot, but doesn't like it, either, though she is pleasant and polite with her online class, unlike with me. We are wading into doing math together currently, and all the toxicity seems to be returning at the first moment.

How do you break out of the negativity once the pattern has started? 

@Not_a_Number Have any thoughts?

Emily

[Lori D.]

Ouch! That's rough.

My guess is that 2 things are happening:

1. teen hormones/attitude -- which tends to get taken out on mom because mom is "safe" (mom still loves me even when I'm raging or a wreck) -- but also, DD's in the stage of trying to become an independent human being, and it's likely very frustrating to her to be independent with the math for the class -- but then have to be "dependent" again to get help from mom

2. the move into more abstract higher maths is tough, esp. if she is just at the starting place of those abstract/logic areas of the brain are starting to mature, but not all the way developed yet

I remember a year (9th grade, Algebra I) of having to keep reminding DS#2 that "we're on the same team" and to "please don't take your frustration at the math out on me". Also, at a different, calm, non-math time (lol), asking him, "Okay, it seems like I am really frustrating you with the way we're doing math. Can we talk about what changes we could make so that this is a help for you and I don't end up feeling like a punching bag?" (said with a smile and a wink)

A lot of quick 5 minute breaks to walk to the corner and back, or get a protein snack, or even set it aside and come back later.

But, I was overseeing the math at home -- you're in a tough spot of outsourcing but also having to oversee the tutoring at home. Can you fully outsource? Turn her over to whatever online class helps there are? Or hire a tutor to help her at home. Taking yourself completely out of the picture with math might make it all smoother... ? Just a thought.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Lori D.

[EmilyGF]

32 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Ouch! That's rough.

My guess is that 2 things are happening:

1. teen hormones/attitude -- which tends to get taken out on mom because she is "safe" (she still loves me even when I'm raging or a wreck) -- but also, DD's in the stage of trying to become an independent human being, and it's likely very frustrating to her to be independent with the math for the class -- but then have to be "dependent" again to get help from mom

2. the move into more abstract higher maths is tough, esp. if she is just at the starting place of those abstract/logic areas of the brain are starting to mature, but not all the way developed yet

I remember a year (9th grade, Algebra I) of having to keep reminding DS#2 that "we're on the same team" and to "please don't take your frustration at the math out on me". Also, at a different, calm, non-math time (lol), asking him, "Okay, it seems like I am really frustrating you with the way we're doing math. Can we talk about what changes we could make so that this is a help for you and I don't end up feeling like a punching bag?" (said with a smile and a wink)

A lot of quick 5 minute breaks to walk to the corner and back, or get a protein snack, or even set it aside and come back later.

But, I was overseeing the math at home -- you're in a tough spot of outsourcing but also having to oversee the tutoring at home. Can you fully outsource? Turn her over to whatever online class helps there are? Or hire a tutor to help her at home. Taking yourself completely out of the picture with math might make it all smoother... ? Just a thought.

Oh, the issue is that I'd like to have math back at home next year, and so I'm trying to make headways in working together well. The tutoring is actually working really well; she's making huge strides. It just is $$$ and I'm not sure we can swing it for another year.

I really like the idea of "We're on the same team" and "Can we talk about what changes to make?". Great point.

 

[Lori D.]

15 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

Oh, the issue is that I'd like to have math back at home next year, and so I'm trying to make headways in working together well. The tutoring is actually working really well; she's making huge strides. It just is $$$ and I'm not sure we can swing it for another year.

I really like the idea of "We're on the same team" and "Can we talk about what changes to make?". Great point.

 

"on the same team" = right at the start of an attitude 
"can we talk about changes = WAY AWAY from the math time 😉 

Also, the moment she starts to go negative attitude, you might try suddenly remembering the laundry, or need to use the bathroom, or start something in the kitchen... and end with "I've got to go do X, why don't you see what you can do while I'm gone, and you can let me know how it's going when I get back." Sometimes a quick redirect away from the negative, before it can get started and run right into that "brain rut" of familiar negative pattern helps. 
 

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Oh, the issue is that I'd like to have math back at home next year, and so I'm trying to make headways in working together well. The tutoring is actually working really well; she's making huge strides. It just is $$$ and I'm not sure we can swing it for another year.

I really like the idea of "We're on the same team" and "Can we talk about what changes to make?". Great point.

I need a bit more information 🙂 . How long a break has she had so far in which you've been TOTALLY hands off about her math? (That is, none of the negative interactions.) 

[JennyD]

I have a 13yo too, OP, and math together is not always the highlight of our homeschooling day.  It is manageable, though, which is a huge improvement over last year.  

Things that help: having the dog nearby, being allowed to have a cup of tea at hand, scheduling a break or favorite activity for immediately afterwards that can only be done after math is finished, using a whiteboard to solve problems, me praising his correct answers and listening to his lengthy explanations of how he solved each problem, me going over alternative solutions only AFTER he has solved the problem, me giving small hints only upon request.

Things that do not help: me cutting off his lengthy explanations of wrong answers, me insisting that he solve a problem algebraically, me criticizing his handwriting or sloppy writing (sigh). 

Things that sometime help and sometimes do not help:  me leaving the room, DH coming downstairs and admonishing him, "DO NOT GIVE YOUR MOTHER A HARD TIME!"  (More constructively, sometimes DH will condition doing something with DS13 later in the day on DS doing his school work without giving me a hard time.)

 

[rutheart]

My 7th grader had an abrupt change in attitude with math this year, and it took me a few weeks to figure it out. If she hasn't finished math by 2pm, she will end up in tears. For her, it is not related to the material or difficulty level. Her hormone levels apparently shift by time of day. She now starts her day with math. If she needs a break between problems, she'll do another subject, but then go right back to math. This simple change has made everything SO much better. 

FWIW, her father and I also did better with math in school when it was the first subject of the day. 

 

[Miss Tick]

Could you swing a less expensive outsourced program? My homeschool math class, Mr D, or Derek Owens (unadvertised, but half price if you do the grading) are some options. Then you are available as tutor and advocate, but not involved every day.

If one of those might be feasible financially, can you lay out the options and let her decide? Having ownership in the decision and separation from me has made a world of difference in our house. It took two years to get to the point where talking about math no longer brings out instant animosity, although we still have moments.

[serendipitous journey]

Lori's ideas really resonated with me!  And definitely play with time of day; having snacks while you work; frequent breaks; short bursts of work. 

I also wanted to suggest something I've just gotten the hang of in the past year or so: focus on engaging with the subject, not on making progress in it.  Let your goal be simply doing math with your child, and don't focus your emotional energy on the mathematics: focus it on noticing what is working, identifying what isn't, and learning to work together joyfully & respectfully. 

Of course you'll need to correct math as you go, and figure out how to get concepts across.  But let that be entirely secondary, almost incidental, to the "real" work of practicing working with your child and making it a life-enhancing experience. 

Instead of one that drives you to drink.  Or chocolate.  Well, I believe in self-medicating with chocolate so that'd be okay by me.  😉 

Anyhow, the details and the way you think of it would be different than how I've put it here.  But an approach like this can really help break out of toxic patterns. 

& ignore the idea if it isn't good for you & yours!!! 

hugs.  this stuff is hard. 

[Not_a_Number]

So... let me see what I can report from our experience. I will say that so far, I haven't exactly broken out of the patterns we've had around here, but we've made progress. 

I will say that I come from the perspective of a family that takes math very seriously, and not just as math: I expect my kids to engage seriously and mindfully with problem-solving and critical thinking and I am not willing to relinquish that goals. I also have very focused and opinionated children, and lots of the simpler tricks people mention above didn't work for us. Here's what has helped for us. 

 

1) First of all, figure out where the toxic patterns are coming from, and don't be afraid to find culprits in both yourself and in your child (as well as in your interactions.) For us, part of the issue was the fact that when I gave her math problems, she spent much more emotional energy on blaming ME for hard problems than she did on the problems itself. The attitude was related to the relationship between the two of us and the math itself was incidental -- frankly, we had the exact same issues in other subjects in which I required her to think hard. 

It's possible you'll discover that you have a similar issue -- that the emotional interactions between the two of you are the real problem, and that you can't reduce the friction without sacrificing rigor. In that case, if you feel that she's learning just as much with the tutors as she would with you, I would try my best to keep working with the tutors. If you can at all afford it, the lack of power struggles will be worth it. 

While I'm not sure we won't wind up going down this road, I am fairly invested in not doing so, simply because I trust my own teaching more than other people's. So I didn't do that. But I do think it can be a simple solution.

However, assuming you don't want to do this, here are some things that have helped around here. They haven't yet broken us out of the pattern entirely, but they made a tremendous difference. 

 

2) The first thing that I noticed REALLY helping around here was making school-time more formal and more distinct from our home life. I realized that having the same expectations for our interactions during school time as for the rest of the day was causing emotional issues for DD9. Specifically, she's an outspoken child with strong opinions on what she wants. During "normal time," I prefer it that way, and I pay a lot of attention to what she wants... and while I also take her preferences into serious account during school, I can only do so globally but not locally. That is, I can let her tell me that she finds a particular topic boring, but she cannot decide to simply not do a question I assigned or not listen to an explanation of a concept I want her to understand (issues that constantly came up with us.) 

For us, this has meant actually inventing a fake teacher who looks a lot like me but who wears sunglasses and gets addressed as "ma'am." We call her Miss Swamp 😂. However, if this seems like going off the deep end (it sometimes does to me, except it works really well), I would guess there are lots of aspects of this you could use without actually inventing a totally separate teacher persona. You could simply have different and stricter rules for school interactions and change your tone for school time. For us, this really decreased the number of totally unhelpful emotions that interfered during school time. 

 

3) While formalizing things really helped here, it did not solve the problem. It did result in DD9 no longer whining or glaring at me, which helped reduce negative interactions... but it didn't necessarily result in her being committed to the work in the kind of way that produced thoughtful output. The next thing that helped her attitude was troubleshooting with her. We spent a LOT of time talking about what she wanted from her math lessons and what I wanted from them, and we came up with plans that would accomplish these things. 

Now, I will say that DD9 turned out to be completely incapable of carrying out her parts of the plans 😛 . However, talking to me about the plans made her feel heard and less resentful, and since resentment was a huge part of what was driving her shoddy work (something we discovered along the way), this helped improve her attitude. And since your DD is older, it's possible she'll be more aware of what she can and cannot do.

 

4) After many, many conversations and plans gone awry, I did something that I don't recommend anyone else do, and I only did because I was getting a VERY good understanding of what was happening around here -- as it turned out, DD9 was resentful that I wasn't sitting with her and helping her out at ALL times and therefore, she'd sabotage her own work out of resentment whether I was helping her or not (I was never helping enough for her 😉). What I wound up deciding was that there was NO WAY we'd snap out of this terrible pattern without some sort of serious kick in the rear... so I told that if she kept up the attitude, she'd HAVE to go to school. 

She kept up the attitude. 

I officially "kicked her out" of our homeschool. 

And she worked her rear off to try to "show me" that she deserved to be allowed back in our homeschool. And that actually pressed a huge reset button for us... I had long since tried to get her to work more independently, but she was so resentful that I wasn't working with her that she'd sabotage all of those efforts. But since she was very motivated by the idea of "proving" something to me, she started actually working hard 😉 . 

She has now been allowed back into our homeschool, although I'm still trying to figure out how to get her to bring good effort into interactions with me as opposed into her independent work. However, her work is now finally self-motivated and resentment-free, and I am now able to ask her how she did that day (she's currently grading herself) and the emotional tenor of the household has gotten MUCH better. 

 

So... what does one learn from our experience, lol? I am sure that only some of our lessons are generally applicable. I would say that knowing one's child and analyzing WHERE the emotional issues are coming from is probably the most important thing that I've learned. I've also learned that I scoff too much at structure and that some of the things I don't LIKE about school are also helpful for kids in order to rein their emotions in. We all respond to our environment, and an emotion-laden environment can be very much not conducive to learning. 

And I also did learn that it was important for DD9 to simultaneously feel like I'm on her team and to also feel like I won't take any nonsense from her... a hard combination! We're still trying to thread that needle. But we've had real improvements. And she still really likes math and is now doing really well on math contests, so I can't complain 😉 . 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[serendipitous journey]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:26 PM, Not_a_Number said:

...

And I also did learn that it was important for DD9 to simultaneously feel like I'm on her team and to also feel like I won't take any nonsense from her... a hard combination! ...

You know, this is HUGE.  I think most of us find one of these comes more easily, but both are needed to educate a child. 

[kiwik]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:41 AM, SusanC said:

Could you swing a less expensive outsourced program? My homeschool math class, Mr D, or Derek Owens (unadvertised, but half price if you do the grading) are some options. Then you are available as tutor and advocate, but not involved every day.

If one of those might be feasible financially, can you lay out the options and let her decide? Having ownership in the decision and separation from me has made a world of difference in our house. It took two years to get to the point where talking about math no longer brings out instant animosity, although we still have moments.

It is actually clearly stated on the prices page now.

[Momto6inIN]

I don't know where she's at with her math progression, and my experience may not apply to yours at all. But fwiw, my 2nd son really struggled with pre-A when we brought him home from ps to hs and he cried over every math curriculum I tried. So what I finally did was give him a break from "hard" math for an entire year and he did only Life of Fred and reviewed fractions and decimals and percents and I stayed the heck away from it and let him do it on his own. Which I could do because the content was easy and a review of stuff he already knew.

Then when he was good and de-traumatized we just started on Alg 1 and went from there the following year and after that we had no problems.

I am *not* someone who would ever recommend LoF as a full curriculum. But for us, for a season, for a specific purpose, doing something easy and fun took the negativity away from the situation.

[EmilyGF]

For anyone who wants an update... 

She's going to keep doing the online math. She's definitely learning, I get to be the cheerleader, and we don't fight over it. I found her better class times that don't make her angry. She more play-snarls about math now than actually explodes. She still gets text anxiety and freezes when a problem is very hard, but I can see that it is better compared with earlier in the year.

I'm also working part-time, which makes the expensive classes affordable. OTOH, when DD15 was her age, I was spending a ton of time teaching her math (and doing a darn good job of it). I think I spend fewer hours per week paying for her math class than I spent teaching older dd math. For us, this tradeoff makes sense right now because I really like my job and really hated teaching dd13 math.  I still get to homeschool the subjects I like homeschooling her in, as my job is flexible and low stress enough to keep up homeschooling in general.

Emily