Vaccine Passports?

[Bootsie]

35 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re records/documentation that "undocumented" people may/may not have

I don't know either, although it is hard to exist for very long without employment of some sort; and legal businesses require something or they can't count wages as expenses.

But you're absolutely right; there are SOME number of people who eke out an existence on a cash only basis, and have never accessed the education or health system, and/or don't use a consistent name.  Some of whom, thank God, have managed to get vaccinated. And so you are right: any vaccine verification system we manage to put in place will be imperfect.

You're also right that there will be SOME number of people who have opted NOT to get vaccinated, and will engage in purposeful fraud if that's what it takes to go to a bar or restaurant; and since we didn't use a perfectly uniform recordkeeping system throughout the rollout, such purposeful fraud also means that any vaccine verification system we manage to put in place will be imperfect.

Like just about any other public policy, or just about any change at the community or family or individual level for that matter... change needn't be PERFECT in order to be better.

Better is better.

But what indication is there that having vaccine passports is better?  In some neighborhoods, fear of the record-keeping may increase vaccine hesitancy.  I have not seen any evidence that suggests that vaccine passports, based upon the way that the US has gathered data makes communities any better; I would be happy to look at the evidence if there is any.  

As far as the magnitude of fraud, there have been threads regarding how much fraud that has occurred in the unemployment system, with systems tied to employment and social security numbers.  When less consistent and less detailed records have been kept about vaccines, I do not think it is farfetched to think there would be fraud with a vaccine passport system.  

Also, I have found the term "vaccine passport" is being used in many different ways, not simply as something that needs to be shown to enter a bar or restaurant.  Some are using it as showing vaccine proof to go to school, some to grocery stores, some for travel, some for bars.  Some are talking about an app that digitizes the CDC card without providing any additional level of security.  Others are talking about a standardized, government veriified system.  Without more specificty of what is being discussed and what all it would encompass, it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation about (1) what is possible with the data we have and (2) should we do that.  

[HSMWB]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

Also, I have found the term "vaccine passport" is being used in many different ways, not simply as something that needs to be shown to enter a bar or restaurant.  Some are using it as showing vaccine proof to go to school, some to grocery stores, some for travel, some for bars.  Some are talking about an app that digitizes the CDC card without providing any additional level of security.  Others are talking about a standardized, government veriified system.  Without more specificty of what is being discussed and what all it would encompass, it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation about (1) what is possible with the data we have and (2) should we do that.  

I totally agree with your two points.  I’m not sure how to go about having that conversation, I guess defining terms would be a good start - but what terms even to use?

[Bootsie]

31 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

I totally agree with your two points.  I’m not sure how to go about having that conversation, I guess defining terms would be a good start - but what terms even to use?

To me, the term "vaccine passport" has a connotation of being an official government document that is created from reliable, vetted data, is not easily altered or forged, and is easily linked to the person it belongs to.  

[Pam in CT]

re defining term "vaccine passport"

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

But what indication is there that having vaccine passports is better?  In some neighborhoods, fear of the record-keeping may increase vaccine hesitancy.  I have not seen any evidence that suggests that vaccine passports, based upon the way that the US has gathered data makes communities any better; I would be happy to look at the evidence if there is any.  

As far as the magnitude of fraud, there have been threads regarding how much fraud that has occurred in the unemployment system, with systems tied to employment and social security numbers.  When less consistent and less detailed records have been kept about vaccines, I do not think it is farfetched to think there would be fraud with a vaccine passport system.  

Also, I have found the term "vaccine passport" is being used in many different ways, not simply as something that needs to be shown to enter a bar or restaurant.  Some are using it as showing vaccine proof to go to school, some to grocery stores, some for travel, some for bars.  Some are talking about an app that digitizes the CDC card without providing any additional level of security.  Others are talking about a standardized, government veriified system.  Without more specificty of what is being discussed and what all it would encompass, it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation about (1) what is possible with the data we have and (2) should we do that.  

 

2 hours ago, HSMWB said:

I totally agree with your two points.  I’m not sure how to go about having that conversation, I guess defining terms would be a good start - but what terms even to use?

Agree -- it's always helpful to try to come to a common usage around terms; or if that isn't possible (and it isn't always), at least to understand the differences in how folks perceive particular language.

 

OP, when you first started the thread...

On 9/28/2021 at 4:37 PM, HSMWB said:

The next question seems to be vaccine passports.  Is this supposed to be a permanent thing for those who are advocating them?  In the places where they are being implemented is the an end game for them going away or is it the ‘new normal’?

... what was in your mind when you kicked off with the bolded?  When you asked "is this supposed to be a permanent thing..."   what did you envision as the "this"?

[TechWife]

11 hours ago, Bootsie said:

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

That is simply not true. Registration can be completed the same way it is for most things - someone fills out a form or completes an online questionnaire with identifying information on it. Yes, we take their word for it. It doesn't really matter if you think a person's word isn't good enough to identify them because it's the way things have been done for centuries.

[TechWife]

12 hours ago, Bootsie said:

Maybe the unvaccinated are more honorable than the general population, but I see a lot of false documents out there.

You personally see a lot of false documents? Do you work in law enforcement or the judicial system? I can't image other circumstances someone would see a lot of false documents.

There is a difference between knowing that there are multiple ways to work the system  either legally or not, and having evidence that doing so illegally is a widespread problem.

 

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

To me, the term "vaccine passport" has a connotation of being an official government document that is created from reliable, vetted data, is not easily altered or forged, and is easily linked to the person it belongs to.  

Understood. However, multiple people on this thread have explained the various ways that vaccine confirmation can be done without involving government issued documents or having a government database. Can you at least see that some of the proposed solutions are worth exploring?

Edited October 5, 2021 by TechWife

[Bootsie]

47 minutes ago, TechWife said:

You personally see a lot of false documents? Do you work in law enforcement or the judicial system? I can't image other circumstances someone would see a lot of false documents.

There is a difference between knowing that there are multiple ways to work the system  either legally or not, and having evidence that doing so illegally is a widespread problem.

 

No, I work on a college campus.  I have a number of students who leave their wallet and we look to see who it belongs to.  We ask students for IDs when they take an exam and OOOOPS when they show us the ID they use to buy alcohol.  Students miss and exam and email the copy of a doctor's excuse.  I know a student who faced serious legal trouble when he was stupid enough to leave his wallet, with a fake ID in it, at an airport security checkpoint last year.  DD was an RA and knew that the majority of students in the dorm had fake IDs.  

And this isn't anything new on a college campus.  I went to one of my husband's college reunions a few years ago and met some of the guys who ran the fake id business out of their dorm room 50 years ago on a conservative, Christian college campus.  

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, Bootsie said:

No, I work on a college campus.  I have a number of students who leave their wallet and we look to see who it belongs to.  We ask students for IDs when they take an exam and OOOOPS when they show us the ID they use to buy alcohol.  Students miss and exam and email the copy of a doctor's excuse.  I know a student who faced serious legal trouble when he was stupid enough to leave his wallet, with a fake ID in it, at an airport security checkpoint last year.  DD was an RA and knew that the majority of students in the dorm had fake IDs.  

And this isn't anything new on a college campus.  I went to one of my husband's college reunions a few years ago and met some of the guys who ran the fake id business out of their dorm room 50 years ago on a conservative, Christian college campus.  

People generally grow out of that type of behavior. For example, workplaces don’t have a guy running a fake ID business. 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

People generally grow out of that type of behavior. For example, workplaces don’t have a guy running a fake ID business. 

Is it that they grow out of the behavior or that they don't have the need for a fake ID anymore?  I know parents who have helped proivde their children with fake IDs, such as letting their child use an older siblings birth certificate.  How has their beeen such a huge problem with unemployment fraud recently?  We have had people on this board say that they are concerned that they wouldn't be able to lie if asked questions about vax status in person, but they could answer the questions on their computer falsely so that they qualified.  So, is it better to ask someone their vax status or ask them to show something on their phone which means that they went and filled out some stuff on their computer?  If you do not think people can be honest about their vax status, you may just be adding a layer for which them to add their lie behind, so that they can lie more comfortably, when you depend upon people filling out registration forms on line, showing up and self-proclaiming who they are (because we did it that way for centuries), and then adding something to their phone.  

[HSMWB]

23 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

.

OP, when you first started the thread...

... what was in your mind when you kicked off with the bolded?  When you asked "is this supposed to be a permanent thing..."   what did you envision as the "this"?

OP here, I started this thread after seeing this particular flier.  So originally I guess this is what I was thinking of ‘this’.

[Pam in CT]

re working definition of what "vaccine passport" means

38 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

OP here, I started this thread after seeing this particular flier.  So originally I guess this is what I was thinking of ‘this’.

Thank you - that is helpful.

So if I understand what Kings County (Washington state) will be implementing as of October 25...

Quote

It will apply to:

• Outdoor events with 500 people or more – such as professional and collegiate sports and entertainment events
• Indoor entertainment and recreational events or establishments – such as professional and collegiate sports, entertainment, performing arts, museums, theatre, live music, gyms, and conferences/conventions.
• Restaurants and bars (including indoor dining) – this does not apply to outdoor dining, take-out customers, and places that aren't primarily used as a restaurant, such as grocery stores.

The order gives the option for a longer preparation period for smaller restaurants and bars with a seating capacity of 12 or less, with an implementation date of December 6. The entire order is not expected to be permanent. It will be reviewed no later than six months after the October 25th implementation date to assess its continued need based on future outbreak conditions.

... to your originally posed OP question, it does not appear to be envisioned as a permanent thing/ New Normal, but rather a time-bound response driven by

Quote

...continued high levels of preventable COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations and increased deaths driven by the Delta variant, serious stress on our regional healthcare system, and concern for a significant outbreak resurgence this fall and winter...

with a built-in re-evaluation date at 6 months "based on future outbreak conditions."

And there is also, under this particular definition of "passport" for participation in recreational and voluntary activities like sports events, bars & restaurants, a testing option.  And it's a QR code; private information would not be visible like my name / address / DOB is every time I flash my drivers license to board a plane / buy a bottle of wine / confirm my hotel reservation etc.

I DO recognize and acknowledge the tradeoff between measures that protect against COVID spread vs individual privacy and freedom.  There is a tradeoff.  There always are.

To my mind, under this particular definition -- sports, restaurants, bars... with a testing option... with a timestamp for re-evaluation... I am personally comfortable.  (It is largely aligned with the Excelsior Pass that New York City launched over the summer, which is slowly spreading into my own area.) 

Further: I would be comfortable extending it, with similar provisions for a testing option and a timestamp, to interstate air travel.  No one loves to travel more than me. I am not currently comfortable flying. A "vaccine passport" for airline travelers on this model would go a very long way towards getting me, personally, there.  And as -- God knows -- air travel is a privilege not a right, much like restaurants... there too, I'd see the tradeoffs both as real, and as worth it (foremost in public health terms; secondarily to boost customer confidence & demand).

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

And it's a QR code; private information would not be visible like my name / address / DOB is every time I flash my drivers license to board a plane / buy a bottle of wine / confirm my hotel reservation etc.

Right. I was struck a few posts up by the reference by @Bootsie that the students are required to show their ID to take their exams. 
 

 

14 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

A "vaccine passport" for airline travelers on this model would go a very long way towards getting me, personally, there.  And as -- God knows -- air travel is a privilege not a right, much like restaurants... there too, I'd see the tradeoffs both as real, and as worth it (foremost in public health terms; secondarily to boost customer confidence & demand).

This would be a huge thing. My dh has a new job and had to bow out of a restaurant meal with his boss and new coworkers this week, because  we are not doing that at all right now and as bad as it looked and felt for him not to go, we aren’t willing to throw all the precautions we’ve taken the past 19 months out the window for this one thing, in a packed restaurant that doesn’t require vaccines or testing, with unmasked people, with case rates as high as they are right now. Totally sucks. Not sure a vaccine requirement would get us there with cases as high as they are, but lower case numbers coupled with vaccine or testing required would, for a situation this important.  

[Pam in CT]

re I'm old enough to remember last year's mantra, The Economy!!

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

This [="vaccine passport" for domestic airline travelers, sports events, restaurants & bars, other non-essential privileges] would be a huge thing. My dh has a new job and had to bow out of a restaurant meal with his boss and new coworkers this week, because  we are not doing that at all right now and as bad as it looked and felt for him not to go, we aren’t willing to throw all the precautions we’ve taken the past 19 months out the window for this one thing, in a packed restaurant that doesn’t require vaccines or testing, with unmasked people, with case rates as high as they are right now. Totally sucks. Not sure a vaccine requirement would get us there with cases as high as they are, but lower case numbers coupled with vaccine or testing required would, for a situation this important.  

Yeah. As the world settles in to a long COVID haul, waiting and watching for which happens first, the virus recedes as it has increased difficulty finding receptive hosts or the virus mutates into forms more transmissible/ virulent / able to evade vaccine and/or prior infection immunity...

...as the world therefore settles in to intermittent and unpredictable supply chain disruptions for automotive microchips or port delays or steel or whatever is disrupted, wherever...

... along with international borders opening and closing on short notice, with all the attendant disruption to airline and hospitality and tourist sectors and all the attendant service employee & soap & shampoo & linen service & food service & other ancillary related industries...

... there are, inevitably, tradeoffs. 

Which segment is larger: the Americans who will refuse to fly if there's a "vaccine passport" for air travelers... or the Americans who won't fly unless there ARE such safeguards in place? Which segment is more profitable? How about non-US travelers who constitute a yuge proportion of US tourism, and are increasingly accustomed to vaccine passports in their home countries? Left purely to their own business/profitability calculations, how are air & tourist businesses like Carnival and the cruise companies likely to choose?  Should the federal or state governments intervene in the name of boosting The Economy?

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

How about non-US travelers who constitute a yuge proportion of US tourism, and are increasingly accustomed to vaccine passports in their home countries?

Great point. I would love to return to the USA for a holiday at some stage. I would be reluctant if there were no Covid protocols in place, and more likely to choose somewhere safer like Europe. 

I think because of this thread and others, I spent all night dreaming about vaccination, and ended up remembering that I had to have all the childhood vaccinations done again at age 20 something, because I was going overseas to a developing country and had no immunity left  (or more likely they hadn't been done, or done properly). I got everything from the MMR to polio to TB jabs that year. And since then have had levels checked by Drs during pregnancy - needed new whooping cough, Hep B and chicken pox jabs. Then the yearly flu shots. I've spent a lot of time being vaccinated before covid came along!

[Bootsie]

9 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re working definition of what "vaccine passport" means

Thank you - that is helpful.

So if I understand what Kings County (Washington state) will be implementing as of October 25...

... to your originally posed OP question, it does not appear to be envisioned as a permanent thing/ New Normal, but rather a time-bound response driven by

with a built-in re-evaluation date at 6 months "based on future outbreak conditions."

And there is also, under this particular definition of "passport" for participation in recreational and voluntary activities like sports events, bars & restaurants, a testing option.  And it's a QR code; private information would not be visible like my name / address / DOB is every time I flash my drivers license to board a plane / buy a bottle of wine / confirm my hotel reservation etc.

 

How does having a QR code on a phone identify me as the person the QR code belongs to?  I have been in Europe where QR codes on phones are an option for summarizing your vaccination (or testing) status.  However, a drivers license, residence permit, passport or some other identification is necessary to show that you are the person that QR code belongs to.  

[Dmmetler]

10 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

How does having a QR code on a phone identify me as the person the QR code belongs to?  I have been in Europe where QR codes on phones are an option for summarizing your vaccination (or testing) status.  However, a drivers license, residence permit, passport or some other identification is necessary to show that you are the person that QR code belongs to.  

The CLEAR app requires that you scan a photo ID to set up and takes a photo of you to match as part of the process, and the QR screen shows your face. You don't have to show a separate ID at check in with the app because you already have. Apparently at some airports you can link it with your TSA Pre check number and ID and use it as an alternative form of ID there as well.  It definitely shields a lot more information than showing a driver's license does. 

[Pam in CT]

re verifying QR codes to identity

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

How does having a QR code on a phone identify me as the person the QR code belongs to?  I have been in Europe where QR codes on phones are an option for summarizing your vaccination (or testing) status.  However, a drivers license, residence permit, passport or some other identification is necessary to show that you are the person that QR code belongs to.  

 

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

The CLEAR app requires that you scan a photo ID to set up and takes a photo of you to match as part of the process, and the QR screen shows your face. You don't have to show a separate ID at check in with the app because you already have. Apparently at some airports you can link it with your TSA Pre check number and ID and use it as an alternative form of ID there as well.  It definitely shields a lot more information than showing a driver's license does. 

Yeah, the universities seem to be managing various permutations of this, as does the sports event/theater/restaurant/bar "passports" like NYC's Excelsior being deployed in my area -- the code is matched to the photo on the same fused screen, so it's super easy for someone at the door/gate to see both at the same time. 

(Folks who don't have a smart phone present a paper code and drivers license, so an unvaxxed person really determined to sneak in to a Broadway show would-- to privacy concerns -- now have to show name/address/DOB where before COVID we did not have to; and -- on COVID contagion risk concerns -- also *could* fraudulently allege eligibility when they are both unvaxxed and untested.)

Better is better.

 

[KSera]

I just happened on this article from August about different digital options for verifying vaccine status:
 You’re going to be asked to prove your vaccination status. Here’s how to do it.