AOPS Group Theory VS Linear Algebra through Stanford ULO

[SanDiegoMom]

Ok, these are obviously niche classes and I only know a couple of boardies whose kids have taken these.  My ds submitted his App to take the Linear Algebra through Stanford University Online Math and Physics, but as a back up I signed him up for the Group Theory class just in case he can't take the other one. I highly doubt he will be rejected -- it's one online class, he got a 5 in AP Calc BC, but I just like to make sure of everything. Plus of course Aops is a LOT cheaper than the other! 

Does anyone have an opinion on these classes? I think @quark's ds took Group Theory, and @Arcadia's ds took a class through Stanford? Wondering how the class operated, (we know how AOPS run, but not the ULO classes quite as much) if they enjoyed it, if it was a massive amount of work. I am just out of my league here -- I had planned for him to take an in person Linear Algebra class, but it looks like it's not running, and hasn't since Covid.  The community colleges here are still all online, so I figured if it is going to be online, might as well choose the provider. 

The Stanford course has the benefit of getting college credit if the exams are proctored, but right now I don't know how important that is to ds.  I am assuming I will just add the AOPS class to the transcript like we will be doing Clover Chemistry's Organic and Biochem class- as an extra class.  He's in brick and mortar school so the majority of the classes will be through them, and we aren't really going through their process to get classes approved for high school credit. They will only give two classes worth of credit anyway. 

Any thoughts, no matter how random? I'm just second guessing my second guesses, as usual. 

[Arcadia]

.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Arcadia

[SanDiegoMom]

19 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

ETA: 

“All students receive Stanford Continuing Studies credit.”

Ah, I see. If it stays merely as high school credit (and needing departmental approval) then it might make more sense to take the cheaper AOPS class in the format that he is already familiar with! I'll have to run it by him.  He doesn't seem to care either way about the content -- he's more focused on just getting adjusted to high school (since last year was pretty disjointed with only three months in person with half the amount of kids).  Right now for him math is just do the next thing.... only there seems to be too many choices of what the next thing would be.  He just knows he wants a break from Calculus before going into the next level, and he usually just depends on me to choose.  Sigh. 

[Arcadia]

.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Arcadia

[Not_a_Number]

On 8/16/2021 at 1:54 PM, Arcadia said:

My DS16 opted for the AoPS WOOT class and the CTY self paced linear algebra class. He took a year break from calculus. What he liked about the WOOT classes were that it was kind of like sampling multiple math topics. Some took the class to improve on their AIME scores while there are some like my kid took it because they just want to know if they want to eventually be math majors.

I have to say that I don't know that WOOT is a great way to sample being a math major. You'll need to write proofs to be a math major, yes, but contests are a much more mishmash smattering of topics than actually doing a major. It's not quite the same kind of thing. 

[Not_a_Number]

On 8/15/2021 at 3:45 PM, SanDiegoMom said:

Ok, these are obviously niche classes and I only know a couple of boardies whose kids have taken these.  My ds submitted his App to take the Linear Algebra through Stanford University Online Math and Physics, but as a back up I signed him up for the Group Theory class just in case he can't take the other one. I highly doubt he will be rejected -- it's one online class, he got a 5 in AP Calc BC, but I just like to make sure of everything. Plus of course Aops is a LOT cheaper than the other! 

Does anyone have an opinion on these classes? I think @quark's ds took Group Theory, and @Arcadia's ds took a class through Stanford? Wondering how the class operated, (we know how AOPS run, but not the ULO classes quite as much) if they enjoyed it, if it was a massive amount of work. I am just out of my league here -- I had planned for him to take an in person Linear Algebra class, but it looks like it's not running, and hasn't since Covid.  The community colleges here are still all online, so I figured if it is going to be online, might as well choose the provider. 

The Stanford course has the benefit of getting college credit if the exams are proctored, but right now I don't know how important that is to ds.  I am assuming I will just add the AOPS class to the transcript like we will be doing Clover Chemistry's Organic and Biochem class- as an extra class.  He's in brick and mortar school so the majority of the classes will be through them, and we aren't really going through their process to get classes approved for high school credit. They will only give two classes worth of credit anyway. 

Any thoughts, no matter how random? I'm just second guessing my second guesses, as usual. 

I just looked up the class. Is it the one on this page? 

https://ulo.stanford.edu/mathematics

The one labeled Linear Algebra (XM511)?

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I just looked up the class. Is it the one on this page? 

https://ulo.stanford.edu/mathematics

The one labeled Linear Algebra (XM511)?

 

 

yep, that's the one!  

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

yep, that's the one!  

I looked up the textbook online, and it makes it sound like the class won't be the world's most rigorous... sounds like they skim over lots of pretty important topics. 

What were you hoping for from the class? 

[SanDiegoMom]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I looked up the textbook online, and it makes it sound like the class won't be the world's most rigorous... sounds like they skim over lots of pretty important topics. 

What were you hoping for from the class? 

I don't think exactly that my son needs the most rigorous, but he does need something to do after AP Calc now, and I just don't know what I don't know.  So I figured this class would be commensurate with any other Linear Algebra Class.  If it was a choice between this class and a community college class (which are also online) I figured this one would be more challenging than those at lease. 

He did decide, however,  to take the AOPS Group Theory class this semester.  Just kicking the can down the road until next year I suppose.  Ideally next year we will find something that is in person! 

[SDMomof3]

5 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I don't think exactly that my son needs the most rigorous, but he does need something to do after AP Calc now, and I just don't know what I don't know.  So I figured this class would be commensurate with any other Linear Algebra Class.  If it was a choice between this class and a community college class (which are also online) I figured this one would be more challenging than those at lease. 

He did decide, however,  to take the AOPS Group Theory class this semester.  Just kicking the can down the road until next year I suppose.  Ideally next year we will find something that is in person! 

He can take in person classes math at UCSD, they offer concurrent enrollment for middle and high school students through Extension. It’s more rigorous than CC. 

[HomeForNow]

When did AoPS Group Theory come back? It's been missing for years. I never saw it run, and I had assumed it wasn't coming back.

[mathnerd]

24 minutes ago, HomeForNow said:

When did AoPS Group Theory come back? It's been missing for years. I never saw it run, and I had assumed it wasn't coming back.

There was an email this summer about it coming back. There is a session starting in Sep:

https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/grouptheory

 

[SanDiegoMom]

On 8/24/2021 at 11:00 AM, SDMomof3 said:

He can take in person classes math at UCSD, they offer concurrent enrollment for middle and high school students through Extension. It’s more rigorous than CC. 

I think I will look into that for the next course then.  Thank you!

 

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I think I will look into that for the next course then.  Thank you!

I would guess that'd be better than the linear algebra class, which looks quite bare bones. 

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I think I will look into that for the next course then.  Thank you!

 

Also, UCSD has two tracks of math courses -- one for the math majors (the 31AH honors sequence for Linear Algebra, which is more proof-based) and the regular version, which is geared more towards the engineering and science majors, so that may also be something to think about, if he is coming from AoPS.  

[SoCal_Bear]

Try looking at John Rosasco's classes. https://mathandmusicstudio.com/New_Classes.html

Since you are local to me, this means something...Becca O's son who went to MIT did courses with him. She speaks highly of the experience.

[Arcadia]

.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Arcadia

[Clarita]

I went to UC Santa Barbara for my BS in Electrical Engineering and back then a 3 or higher in Calculus BC would skip 2 quarters of Applied Calculus for science and engineering. There were 6 quarters total of required Applied Calculus. All that to say if your son finds out he enjoys applied math more than theoretical (I don't really know the technical terms but in layman's terms could be math that involve actual numbers and things vs math that isn't). There is probably a little more applied Calculus for him to go through and learn. Then after that it's how to apply the calculus to do what you want to do. (That was most of what I did for my Masters in Electrical Engineering.)

Just a different opinion from someone who liked math in high school, but realized in college I only like math as a tool to make things happen.  

[mathnerd]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:54 AM, Arcadia said:

 some like my kid took it because they just want to know if they want to eventually be math majors.

So, was the exposure to various topics through WOOT helpful in making that decision eventually? 🙂

 

[Arcadia]

.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Arcadia

[mathnerd]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

This is a kid who has considered triple majoring and ended up finishing all the core courses for an associate degree in computer science or math. He has more issues deciding which CSUs and UCs to apply for than what major to declare 🤦‍♀️

well, UCB campus is just a few miles to the east of you ... 

 

[Arcadia]

.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Arcadia

[Amybeth123]

Hi All...

For those whose kids have taken classes with John Rosaco...how have you handled listing those classes on their high school transcripts or on the Common App? He doesn't give grades and I'm not sure how to handle this? Did you enter a grade or just leave it blank?

Thanks much!

Amy

[Malam]

On 7/7/2022 at 8:40 AM, Amybeth123 said:

Hi All...

For those whose kids have taken classes with John Rosaco...how have you handled listing those classes on their high school transcripts or on the Common App? He doesn't give grades and I'm not sure how to handle this? Did you enter a grade or just leave it blank?

Thanks much!

Amy

For highschool-level classes, maybe have them take an exam (perhaps with corrections) and grade them on that?

Edited July 11, 2022 by Malam

[Black-eyed Suzan]

 

On 8/24/2021 at 8:43 AM, SanDiegoMom said:

I don't think exactly that my son needs the most rigorous, but he does need something to do after AP Calc now, and I just don't know what I don't know.  So I figured this class would be commensurate with any other Linear Algebra Class.  If it was a choice between this class and a community college class (which are also online) I figured this one would be more challenging than those at lease. 

He did decide, however,  to take the AOPS Group Theory class this semester.  Just kicking the can down the road until next year I suppose.  Ideally next year we will find something that is in person! 

@SanDiegoMom, how did this go for your son? What did he end up taking after Group Theory?

My son finishes AP Calc BC this year and needs 2 more years of math. I don't know what the best choice for a likely math major is. He has enjoyed his AOPS classes so far. 

[Malam]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:15 PM, Black-eyed Suzan said:

 

@SanDiegoMom, how did this go for your son? What did he end up taking after Group Theory?

My son finishes AP Calc BC this year and needs 2 more years of math. I don't know what the best choice for a likely math major is. He has enjoyed his AOPS classes so far. 

So AoPS Group Theory is going to be more similar to the material he'll see as an undergraduate. He'll probably have a harder time getting college credit for it than SOHS Linear Algebra, which is more like a linear algebra class taken freshman/sophmore year. I would expect the group theory class to be more challenging / advanced. Do you want two semesters of math per year or one semester of math per year? If you want to fill out some more time, has he done Intermediate Counting and Probability or Intermediate Number Theory?

[Black-eyed Suzan]

6 minutes ago, Malam said:

So AoPS Group Theory is going to be more similar to the material he'll see as an undergraduate. He'll probably have a harder time getting college credit for it than SOHS Linear Algebra, which is more like a linear algebra class taken freshman/sophmore year. I would expect the group theory class to be more challenging / advanced. Do you want two semesters of math per year or one semester of math per year? If you want to fill out some more time, has he done Intermediate Counting and Probability or Intermediate Number Theory?

Thank you, Malam! He has not done Intermediate C&P or Intermediate Number Theory yet. He also wants to take statistics. I think 2 semesters of math per year is what we'd like. I'd love more ideas and suggestions. 🙂

[Malam]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:40 PM, Black-eyed Suzan said:

Thank you, Malam! He has not done Intermediate C&P or Intermediate Number Theory yet. He also wants to take statistics. I think 2 semesters of math per year is what we'd like. I'd love more ideas and suggestions. 🙂

So it would make sense to take int. counting and probability before a statistics class. Do you want a live online course or would something self paced be okay?

Edited February 23, 2023 by Malam

[Black-eyed Suzan]

6 hours ago, Malam said:

So it would make sense to take int. counting and probability before a statistics class. Do you want a live online course or would something self paced be okay?

Oh, good point! Thank you, Malam!!

He likes the live AOPS class style, but not video-based live classes. Self-paced is fine as long as there are problem solutions. I'm not as concerned about credits transferring as setting him up for success in whatever math field he chooses.

I think I'll post the question on the High School board. Once I've done that I'll post the link here so anyone interested can follow the conversation. 🙂

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Black-eyed Suzan
to add link

[SanDiegoMom]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:15 PM, Black-eyed Suzan said:

 

@SanDiegoMom, how did this go for your son? What did he end up taking after Group Theory?

My son finishes AP Calc BC this year and needs 2 more years of math. I don't know what the best choice for a likely math major is. He has enjoyed his AOPS classes so far. 

Sorry I missed this - I was on a cruise and now I am back to real life! 
 

My son dropped Group Theory about four weeks in.   It was by far the hardest math class he’d ever taken. The Aops Calc class was a breeze in comparison.  He has taken the Intermediate Number Theory and that was the closest to the difficulty level of Group Theory.  He said he’d be more willing to try it now at age 17, but at 15 he wasn’t ready for it. 

If he did try it again, it would be over the summer and it would be the main focus.  

[Not_a_Number]

What made it so hard? 

[Malam]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

What made it so hard? 

If I had to guess, I would assume that its position as the "last" class in AoPS' sequence means it's often taken by students who've been in the AoPS environment for a very long time and therefore have developed a high level of math skill and tolerance for fast-and-deep math classes. There's also selection bias - the students who "just" want a rigorous version of the standard HS sequence stop at calculus, or use the discrete math classes in order to take AoPS calc as a senior and thus avoid the "calculus trap". This leaves the type of student to take almost every class AoPS has and still have a semester free. As a result of this, the pacing might be on par with a upper-level undergraduate course for math majors.

This is all guessing of course, and is more of a possible "why" than a definitive "what".

[Black-eyed Suzan]

17 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Sorry I missed this - I was on a cruise and now I am back to real life! 
 

My son dropped Group Theory about four weeks in.   It was by far the hardest math class he’d ever taken. The Aops Calc class was a breeze in comparison.  He has taken the Intermediate Number Theory and that was the closest to the difficulty level of Group Theory.  He said he’d be more willing to try it now at age 17, but at 15 he wasn’t ready for it. 

If he did try it again, it would be over the summer and it would be the main focus.  

A cruise! How nice! I hope you had an easy reentry. 🙂

Oh, thank you! That’s good to know. It sounds like a potential option for my son’s senior year, but not the best for this year.

[SeaConquest]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:30 PM, SanDiegoMom said:

Sorry I missed this - I was on a cruise and now I am back to real life! 
 

My son dropped Group Theory about four weeks in.   It was by far the hardest math class he’d ever taken. The Aops Calc class was a breeze in comparison.  He has taken the Intermediate Number Theory and that was the closest to the difficulty level of Group Theory.  He said he’d be more willing to try it now at age 17, but at 15 he wasn’t ready for it. 

If he did try it again, it would be over the summer and it would be the main focus.  

Woo wee, I am so glad that I read this post. Sounds like OHS MV is the best next step for S after AoPS Calc. Thank you! And welcome home! 🙂 

[SanDiegoMom]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:30 PM, Not_a_Number said:

What made it so hard? 

It was a combination of things.  The Intermediate Number Theory class took up a LOT of time - he spent probably 15 hours a week on it at least. It was the main event. The Group Theory class was harder, and a lot of his brainspace was taken up with adjusting to public school (10th grader, after 9th grade zoom school and 3-8th homeschooling).  We were supporting him in so many different ways already - pushing him to join ECs, scaffolding him in the still byzantine process of turning in work (sometimes online, sometimes in class, sometimes at night, sometimes due by 3 pm -- it was confusing).   So it was just not the right time.

He says he might try it again this summer if he doesn't get an internship.  Which is likely bc he's only applying to one! 

The difference between a 15 year old and a 17 year old is so dramatic its crazy. 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

On 3/1/2023 at 4:14 PM, SeaConquest said:

Woo wee, I am so glad that I read this post. Sounds like OHS MV is the best next step for S after AoPS Calc. Thank you! And welcome home! 🙂 

Thank you! 

Hopefully he will get some good challenge! The CC has been convenient for us (five minute drive!) and he likes having his friends in his classes. But the homework is never a challenge and he never has to study for the exams.  I tentatively broached the possibility that he might want to retake some of these classes in college if he ends up majoring math-adjacent, and he wasn't super thrilled.  He hates repetition.  But I'll let him figure that out later.  

[SanDiegoMom]

Just wanted to update for what it’s worth- ds17 is in the last few weeks of AOPS Group Theory and is finding this second pass much more manageable.  He first attempted it in 10th grade and due to anxiety and going to his first real year in brick and mortar school he found it much too difficult. Now I would say he spends about five-seven hours max on it.  That being said, he doesn’t fully avail himself of all the extra content -  he only answers the challenge problems and writing problems,  and never does the discussion problems. But he’s been in the blue for every week except one (when we went on vacation- whoops).  He also doesn’t read the book:-(. Oh well at least he has it if he wants it. 
 

He’s really enjoying the content.  He sometimes tries to tell us about it but none of us understand it. Alas. 
 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Glad he's enjoying it!! I don't know the details of the AoPS class (never taught it), but I know that group theory is a lot of fun. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Not_a_Number