Neuro-psych results ... suggestions?

[Lucy478]

Hi,

 

New to these forums, but was hoping I could dive in now that we officially know what’s going on with our daughter.

 

 We just received the results from her neuro-psych exam in September.  She’s 7.5, second grade.  Diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD-Inattention.  Over the summer, she was also diagnosed with a developmental vision problem (tracking), for which she’s been receiving vision therapy. We already started O.G. tutoring over the summer, and will continue to do that 5x a week.  The psychologist was light, however, on any recommendations specific/tailored to my daughter’s individual profile. Any advice/recommendations here?

 

 More specifically, we’re home schooling this year, so in addition to O.G. tutoring, we’re currently using: 1) All About Spelling (currently at Level 2), 2) Lexia Core (currently on grade-level for those activities), and 3) Dancing Bears.  She has started some typing activities, and are planning to start Touch-type Read & Spell. We read two hours a day; recently, I’ve been trying to do a roughly equal mix of Dancing Bears, “on level” oral reading (currently plowing through the Magic Treehouse series), and higher-level, children’s classics that I read to her (such as A Secret Garden, the Narnia series, etc.). While she doesn’t seem to struggle with understanding grade-level grammatical concepts or parts of speech (she can do grade-level worksheets just fine), she struggles with generating writing (not physically, more substantively).  So far I’ve been focusing on sentence-level work, and heavy scaffolding for idea generation, organization, and outlining.

 

 Do these seem like the right things to be doing? Her reading accuracy is her lowest score, so I was thinking about working in some type of fluency/timed drills? Would that make sense?

 

We chose to homeschool this year so that we could remediate as much as possible while we have the opportunity.  Our jobs will not have the same work-at-home flexibility when Covid is “over,” meaning we’ll have to send her back to public school, where she’s unlikely to get remediation. (Though we will certainly fight for accommodations.)

 

Also, on math, it was also concerning that her timed math fluency was so low. Have others been able to improve these figures with flash cards, drills, etc.? She seems to have real math potential so I’d hate for her to get bogged down by this.

 

We are also following up with a psychiatrist regarding medication and behavioral therapy.

 

Thank you in advance for any advice!

 

 

Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children– Fifth Edition (WISC-V)

•  Verbal Comprehension (VCI) 124 95% 114-130 Very High
• Visual Spatial (VSI) 129 97% 119-134 Very High
• Fluid Reasoning Index (FRI) 123 94% 114-129 Very High
• Working Memory (WMI) 88 21% 81-97 Low Average
• Processing Speed (PSI) 111 77% 101-119 High Average
•  FULL SCALE (FSIQ) 120 91% 114-125 Very High
• GENERAL ABILITY (GAI) 127 96% 120-132 Very High
• COGNITIVE PROFICIENCY (CPI) 100 50% 93-107 Average

 

Wechsler Individual Achievement Test – Third Edition (WIAT-III)

•  Basic Reading 86 N/A 18% Below Average
• Word Reading 97 2.0 (GE) 42% Average
• Pseudoword Decoding 76 < 1.0 (GE) 5% Poor
• Reading Comprehension 105 2.7 (GE) 63% Average
• Sentence Composition 105 2.9 (GE) 63% Average
• Sentence Combining 112 N/A 79% Above Average
• Sentence Building 98 N/A 45% Average
• Spelling 109 3.1 (GE) 73% Average
• Mathematics 142 N/A > 99% Very Superior
• Numerical Operations 158 4.5 (GE) > 99.9% Very Superior
• Math Problem Solving 122 3.4 (GE) 93% Superior
• Math Fluency 90 N/A 25% Average
• Addition 92 1.8 (GE) 30 Average
• Subtraction 91 1.7 (GE) 27 Average

 

Test of Word Reading Efficiency, Second Edition – Form A

• Sight Word Efficiency 100 50% 2.0 (GE) Average
• Phonetic Decoding Efficiency 84 14% 1.2 (GE)  Below Average
• Total Word Reading Efficiency 92 30% N/A Average

 

Comprehensive Test of Phonological Processing, Second Edition (CTOPP-2)

• Phonological Awareness 94 35% Average
•  Rapid Naming 67 1% Very Poor

 

Comprehensive Test of Phonological Processing Subtests (CTOPP-2)

• Elision 7 16%
• Blending Words 13 84%
• Phoneme Isolation 7 16%
• Rapid Digit Naming 4 2%
•  Rapid Letter Naming 5 5%

 

Test of Orthographic Competence (TOC)

• Signs and Symbols 11 63% Average
• Grapheme Matching 14 91% Above Average
• Homophone Choice 9 37% Average
• Punctuation 9 37% Average
• Orthographic Ability SS = 105 63% Average

 

Gray Oral Reading Tests (GORT- 5); Form A

• Rate 9 37% 2.0 (GE) Average
• Accuracy 8 25% 1.2 (GE) Average
•  Fluency Score 8 25% 1.7 (GE) Average
• Comprehension Score 10 50% 2.2 (GE) Average
• Oral Reading Quotient SS = 94 34% N/A Average

[Rosie_0801]

I'd be using copywork for writing, and not requiring anything from her own imagination. She's got enough going on without that pressure.

I wouldn't do timed drills or anything that puts pressure on. Stuff like that improves with repetition, but it needs to be varied or her brain (like anyone else's) will blank out with boredom. She needs time to digest reading and maths as many times as it takes before it finds a place to stick in her brain, and if it falls out again, you have to start over. 

One of the things that was most valuable for my dd and maths was CSMP. Once she got the hang of the different methods they teach, I'd extend my dd by having her translate between. Often I wasn't even requiring her to solve the problem, just to translate it. It created a stronger foundation in her head.

You might also try having her finger spell her spelling words to take away the pressure of writing. That worked well for my daughter for a long time.

Neuro-psychs are for diagnosing quirky brain things. They don't have training in what to actually do about it, so you came to the right place. 🙂

[Lucy478]

Thanks, is the thought that actual writing would be too much for her? That's what confuses me regarding my expectations -- on her testing, she was at or even a smidge 'above' 'grade level' on any writing measures. She wasn't diagnosed with dysgraphia.  So with scaffolding for spelling and organization, and in the context of one of one home-school instruction, wouldn't sentences and up to a paragraph be appropriate? 

[kbutton]

46 minutes ago, Lucy478 said:

Thanks, is the thought that actual writing would be too much for her? That's what confuses me regarding my expectations -- on her testing, she was at or even a smidge 'above' 'grade level' on any writing measures. She wasn't diagnosed with dysgraphia.  So with scaffolding for spelling and organization, and in the context of one of one home-school instruction, wouldn't sentences and up to a paragraph be appropriate? 

A lot of people use narration and copywork as writing in the early grades.

If you prefer something for writing, I have a couple of suggestions:

• Evan Moor 6-trait writing
• Products from Mindwing Concepts, which were developed for dyslexic students and cover narrative language development through high school writing. It's not a curriculum--it's from an SLP. You'd be looking at Story Grammar products for her age. 

Even if she doesn't have dysgraphia, she might have a disorder of written expression. That can mean it's hard for it all to come together as a result of her issues as whole, it can be executive functioning issues with organizational stuff, or it can be a language issue that's not well-defined. Generally, kids with these sorts of profiles are going to lag a bit in some areas, and writing is one that is common. 

We focused on sentences a lot longer than most people. You can still organize information even when you are not writing paragraphs, and you can still be focusing on what belongs and doesn't belong in a paragraph, or you can focus on subordinating and coordinating ideas in more complex paragraphs, using cohesive ties or other transition words.

I imagine others will chime in with more feedback as well. 

Computational math fluency is a problem for lots of people and not at all unusual for someone with dyslexia. With a GAI so close to the gifted "cutoff" (not all psychs use it as a hard line), and such large areas of highs and lows, especially within subjects, I think my kids' psych would diagnose dyscalculia. It can be a narrow diagnosis just for calculation (one of my kids has this is a diagnosis); it doesn't have to mean that number sense is off, which is a different manifestation of dyscalculia. My kids learned their math facts better in context--factoring, working with cuisinaire rods, etc., but timed tests led to guessing and not using the keen number sense they developed. 

I would really consider your daughter to likely be 2e with those scores. There is a lot of spread there with some ceiling scores for math and really high scores in parts of the WISC (that score range after the percentile is a basically the range of error, and some of those numbers definitely hit the 130 mark for gifted). Additionally, gifted programs in my area would accept the achievement test math scores for entrance into enrichment programs. Given her math scores on achievement, I would not be surprised if her visual issues are interfering a bit with her visual spatial WISC scores. Additionally, ADHD meds can make a difference with testing even if the tester was able to work around the ADHD quite well. Just something to consider. 

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Over the summer, she was also diagnosed with a developmental vision problem (tracking), for which she’s been receiving vision therapy.

How is that going? It seems like you're doing a LOT with vision right now. You said you're reading 2 hours a day. How much of that is she reading using her eyes? Is she fatigued?

I don't know if you're kind of feeling frantic, like push push, but I think you want to both be aggressive and be *focused*. Adding OG on top of AAS and Dancing Bears is just schizophrenic. Doing lots of vision tasks on top of VT is just a lot. FOCUS. Take a deep breath and FOCUS. 

So first, I would be asking if she's *fatigued* for vision due to therapy. If she is, then I would defer as much language work as possible to oral. Read alouds, oral language exercises, oral narrative language work. 

I would then see if what you're doing is *reinforcing* the vision therapy. Are they having you do homework? Or they're doing it all in office? Our place had things they wanted dd to do at home as time went on, like puzzles, logic games using vision. For ds, he has needed to do drawing and other activities for visual motor integration. So as part of FOCUSING, I would see what you can do that reinforces the vision therapy. We have great memories of doing puzzles together, so they can be both therapy and fun breaks! Play ball or golf frisbee, whatever. 

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Processing Speed (PSI) 111

Interestingly, this number is within 20 of your other scores, not discrepant, yes? If you said by percentiles, it's 18%. So it's something to watch but close enough that she shouldn't bog down and fatigue. That may be why you feel like you can go and go with her, because she doesn't have the EXTREME processing speed relative to IQ discrepancies that some kids have. It's something to watch out for, because it also means you could overwork her. The reward for hard work is not more work. Do enough but draw a line. Focusing will help with that.

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

We already started O.G. tutoring over the summer, and will continue to do that 5x a week. 

What system is the OG tutor using? Why are you doing AAS and Dancing Bears on top of this?? The brain needs to FOCUS. Have you asked the tutor what they want you to do? Do you have doubts in the quality of the tutoring? Tutors totally vary. 

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

working in some type of fluency

Yes! Why so many programs? ONE program, done all the way. They should send you home a list of words for fluency work or make a quizlet or anki deck. I made quizlet decks of the words, phrases, and sentences from our Barton work. I drilled everything to complete fluency. If you don't like the tutor and they're not helping you work at home, pick ONE APPROACH and stick with it. With the amount you're willing to work, she could do Barton 2 hours a day and be done with it, no tutor. If you like the tutor, then the tutor can send home work.

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

She has started some typing activities, and are planning to start Touch-type Read & Spell.

Yes. And put the words into the software to reinforce the OG work. 

 

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

“on level” oral reading (currently plowing through the Magic Treehouse series),

Does the tutor want you doing this? You're saying she needs fluency work. Where is she at in her OG instruction? Some systems want you to stay in fully decodable books until the dc gets through enough material. 

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

she struggles with generating writing (not physically, more substantively).  So far I’ve been focusing on sentence-level work, and heavy scaffolding for idea generation, organization, and outlining.

So that is very typical ps writing, but it doesn't address narrative language difficulties she may be having. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  This was actually developed by an SLP working in a dyslexia school. You don't have to write physically to work on narrative language and their ability to get out narrative and expository work. 

If you also want a workbook, I like the 6 Traits Daily Writing series.  https://www.amazon.com/Daily-6-Trait-Writing-Grade-Practice/dp/1596732865  It does a good job fleshing out basics of narrative development and it gets each concept applied into whole, meaningful writing immediately (by the end of each week), which you'll appreciate. It's not a *replacement* for the Story Grammar Marker intervention I linked, but it's good. I would use both. 

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Her reading accuracy is her lowest score

Again, I'm wondering what the tutor is thinking and why they aren't advising you on this. If you don't feel confident in the tutor, dump them and pick a program you can do yourself. She's probably not ready to be reading Magic Treehouse. She sounds like she needs to be in decodable readers and focusing on fluency and accuracy. That requires FOCUS. One program, one approach, everyone WORKING TOGETHER. 

For reference, my ds has scores somewhat like your dd's. I'm with you that the dc has high potential with aggressive intervention, so I think you're on track there. I think working 2 hours a day total on reading is GREAT. I think the read alouds are GREAT. I think 20 minutes a night of decodable readers is GREAT. I think fluency work with apps/drill is GREAT. But I would get it focused, so everyone is working together, and I would LIMIT it to that 2-3 hours total a day to make sure she has time for OTHER things. 

It's very important to make the life of a kid with disabilities GOOD so they don't get discouraged. If you spend 2-3 hours on disability work, then spend 2-3 hours on stuff that is NOT disability. Teach her to sew, buy her lego kits, do puzzles, take up crochet, take up a sport, watch videos on whatever, I don't know. Anything. You need her balanced out for mental health. 

You're probably already doing that. I'm just saying it's another reason to focus, calm your fears, and say when you're doing enough. I strongly encourage the sport. It's a good time of year to take up ice skating. Does she have any strengths you can harness? 

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Also, on math, it was also concerning that her timed math fluency was so low. Have others been able to improve these figures with flash cards, drills, etc.? She seems to have real math potential so I’d hate for her to get bogged down by this.

What math is she doing and how is that going for her? Do the psych's scores fit what you see when working with her? Sometimes scores are outliers. The dc could have been tired or distracted. 

Ronit Bird is particularly good for math. You can never go wrong with more visualization and more games. She has ebooks and print books with cds, depending on where you are in your math progression.

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

higher-level, children’s classics that I read to her (such as A Secret Garden, the Narnia series, etc.).

I'm with you on the value of high quality literature. I'll also suggest you consider *picture books* right now, because they'll let you work on that oral narration. I think you're going to find that building narratives from longer chapter books is a lot. If you look into Story Grammar Marker and use their principles, they'll be easier to apply at first to shorter stories and picture books. Even narrating off a chapter in a longer book is HARD. The EF/ADHD and the working memory issues will make it hard. So look at picture books.

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Rapid Naming 67 1% Very Poor

Are you or your tutor working on this?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0  These are the files I made. They are a #1, NUMBER ONE thing you should be doing right now. You'll probably find fluency becomes a breeze after you work on the RAN/RAS.

16 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

• Rapid Digit Naming 4 2%
•  Rapid Letter Naming 5 5%

Yes, the CTOPP has multiple rapid naming tests. You can use colored dots, numbers, anything. You can bring in midline work and metronome work if you want. Metronome is AWESOME for these kids, because it taps that EF front lobe in the brain. You just download a metronome app, set it to 54 bpm, then do anything you want. Heathermomster has posted lists, but you can also do the rapid naming, anything. I would do that *after* the rapid naming of the lists becomes easy. 

How is her bedroom? Is it messy?

[Storygirl]

I don't have much time to post here today, but I wanted to say that I agree with what other posters are saying about trying to do too much.

I'm curious about the tutoring, too. I used Dancing Bears A with my dyslexic daughter, and it is definitely not an OG approach to reading. I'm concerned that by coming at the problem with too many different approaches, her brain will not have the opportunity to just focus in on the basic remediation that she needs.

Her oral reading aloud to you should be something easy and fun. Since you are "plowing" through MTH, it suggests that the difficulty level may be too high. Remember that she is getting reading instruction in other ways, and the reading aloud part of the day should be to develop an interest in reading and work on fluency, so anything that she can't read easily will work against those goals.

Pay attention to whether she is GUESSING by context when she is reading aloud, because this is a habit that works against OG remediation. My main suggestion for reading is to consider the goals with everything that you do. So (1) Keep reading aloud to her (and I would also introduce some audio books -- I wish I had done that more for my kids; I was reading aloud so much that I didn't think it was needed, but I regret it now that they are older).    (2) Choose easier books for her to read aloud to you, and (3) drop Dancing Bears, but use the covering-the-words-with-a-card technique with MTH or whatever your new choice is. (4) Ask the tutor about what s/he wants you to do.

OG training is fatiguing. When DD was 10, her tutor worked with her twice a week for an hour each, and your tutor is doing much above that. I'm really curious about the 5x a week tutoring. Is this tutor coming to your house every day? Now DD did go to a private dyslexia school after that, and they did OG work every day, because it was woven into all of their classwork, so 5x a week might be fine for your tutoring. Just know that it is more than what private tutors usually do per week.

The concern I have is that your DD will burn out with the pace you have set, which will render all of this intervention much less effective. I do understand the desire to do ALL of the things possible, and some kids might be up for it. But if she is at all reluctant or unhappy, taking a slower pace would be better.

About the writing -- I agree to simplify it, so that she is practicing getting words on paper but that it doesn't add stress. If she doesn't mind writing, I would make it fun. Although the processing speed score is not a ton lower than the others, the difference there may still be making writing hard. Teaching her to type is a good idea, because typing can be a school accommodation.

About math -- memorizing math facts is a very common problem for dyslexics. My daughter is 15 and has a calculator accommodation in her IEP and has math goals in her IEP, even though her main disability is dyslexia. Since your daughter has a strength in math, I would separate out her math lessons from any math drill that you do. Make the math drill short and untimed. The dyslexia school was all about not getting so hung up on math facts that you don't move forward in math concepts, because it's the concepts that are the most important.

About spelling -- I really think using AAS in addition to OG tutoring is overkill. The OG tutor should be able to give you things to do to practice the spelling that they are working on in the tutoring sessions. It would be far better to pair up what you are doing with what the tutor is doing.

Ask the tutor for homework!!! If they are good, they should be able to tell you what they would like you to be working on with her, and then focus on that, instead of the other programs that you have been adding.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

My other piece of advice is to go ahead and request that the public school evaluate her. Don't assume that there is no help from the school to be had. Work at this and advocate for her this year, so that she can possibly have an IEP set up by the beginning of next school year. The process takes months, so don't wait until she re-enrolls. The public school must evaluate homeschoolers who suspect learning disabilities, and you have documentation now that the LD exists.

You may be right that the school will not offer the remediation that she needs, if she performs in the classroom at a high enough level without extra support. But do not assume. Go through the process. Go to bat for her. You might be surprised.

There is a process to understand. People on the boards here can give advice, because many have kids who have IEPs and have been through it. But I also recommend buying or checking out from the library this book --  https://www.amazon.com/Complete-IEP-Guide-Advocate-Special/dp/1413323855/ref=sr_1_3?crid=UX3P0E78D9LZ&dchild=1&keywords=nolo+iep+guide&qid=1602261165&sprefix=nolo+iep%2Caps%2C177&sr=8-3

[Terabith]

Unless the OG tutor has specifically asked you to do something in particular, I would let OG be her language arts curriculum.  Other than listening to high quality books, I would do nothing else for reading, spelling, or writing.  I would do OG, listening to literature, math, and science/ history/ geography through listening to books, watching documentaries or tv shows, and hands on projects.  

[Lucy478]

 

Thanks for all the responses. Lots to think about and still digesting!

One of the biggest problems is that her O.G. tutoring – which should be the cornerstone of her remediation – is not going well at all.  It’s all virtual, which is horrible for her ADHD-Inattentive. But everything is still very shut down in our area (public schools all 100% virtual), so finding an in-person, certified O.G. tutor isn’t likely, at least in the near-term.  (It is definitely our plan long-term.) I am reluctant to take on this main task myself because I am also working from home full-time.

We are trying to do a lot, and certainly I don’t want to work at cross-purposes with her tutor. I told her tutor in August about our homeschooling, and she had no suggestions/comments.  I sent her and her supervisor her neuro-psych report, requesting to discuss, including implications for the tutoring and our home-schooling, and no response yet. Sigh. It is a good program – a highly regarded organization and program in our area – but I have the sense they want to do “their program,” rather than collaborate with us. Much more typical is that their students are, in addition to the tutoring, also enrolled in a separate full-time school. So we are really an anomaly here due to Covid. 

For what it’s worth, my daughter has taken well to AAS, at least so far.  Dancing Bears (we are still on Book A) did seem to fill in important gaps with things like vowel teams and r-controlled vowel.  At the rate her tutor is going, I don’t see her covering those until 1-2 years out. I do agree that subsequent books might be too much for her and that she will need more basic, repetitive fluency practice. My initial purpose in using Dancing Bears was to provide some basic decoding and fluency practice.   It seems tricky, on the one hand, my daughter does need intervention . . .. but on the other hand, she isn’t reading at ground-zero, and does seem to be picking up concepts.

Much of her poor accuracy I attribute to her vision tracking and inattention. We’re “plowing” through Magic Treehouse because she loves the series, I didn’t mean the word negatively!  Any word she needed help sounding out I circle – and in the last couple books, on average she needed help with only a few words in each chapter. Her errors are generally things like leaving out words, reading words in the wrong order, or saying the wrong word (which, when prompted, she is able to correct, without further explicit direction/instruction). I'm thinking the last type of error relates to her poor RAN--she knows the word, but can't rapidly/automatically retrieve it. The series might be technically above her reading level, but with tracking scaffolding it doesn’t seem frustratingly difficult.

[Rosie_0801]

Perhaps it'd be better to drop the O-G tutoring until you can resume face to face lessons.

[Terabith]

Yeah, I'd be tempted to drop the OG tutoring.  Doing AAS and Dancing Bears and reading some text doesn't seem like it's necessarily too much on its own, but it does seem like too much when there's also an hour of OG tutoring a day.  

For what it's worth, I have a kid with very similar scores, who I taught to read at home using Webster's Speller, although at 7.5, we had a lot more success with Mr. Putter and Tabby than Magic School Bus.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lucy478 said:

One of the biggest problems is that her O.G. tutoring – which should be the cornerstone of her remediation – is not going well at all.  It’s all virtual, which is horrible for her ADHD-Inattentive. But everything is still very shut down in our area (public schools all 100% virtual), so finding an in-person, certified O.G. tutor isn’t likely, at least in the near-term.  (It is definitely our plan long-term.) I am reluctant to take on this main task myself because I am also working from home full-time.

Just get Barton and be done with it. You can do it in 15 minute chunks, stealing breaks during your day or just boom in the evening for an hour, and it's FULLY SCRIPTED. It will take less time than the hodgepodge stuff you're doing now and be more effective. 

Ok, another thought. Have you looked for an SLP who specializes in literacy? Make sure the SLP is OG certified. If you can find one, they might still be practicing and have their plan on how to be compliant. Around here SLPs are doing both in person and tele. They might be able to do a blend.

The other thing can be the personality of the tutor. Your dd may need a more upbeat tutor, someone who is ready to keep up with her. Some are going to be too slow and not ready to bring it. People vary, and it's ok to MOVE ON. 

1 hour ago, Lucy478 said:

It is a good program – a highly regarded organization and program in our area

Ok, spill the beans, what program? Sometimes what happens is a person gets trained in OG and doesn't actually have any classroom experience to be able to give you helpful advice on your homeschooling. Where are you at that this person has a supervisor? I think just keep looking. You can really move up the food chain here and get someone better, someone who can bring some energy and keep her engaged and get it moving. I PROMISE it can be done. If you get an SLP who specializes in literacy who is OG trained, that person has a master's already, meaning you're starting with a radically different person. 

My ds does ALL his therapies right now via tele, and his therapists have NO problem connecting with him. Now sometimes he just has really bad days, lol. (He's going into puberty, gets hungry, tired, etc.) But just in general, these people use Zoom and move the sessions and get a LOT DONE! But I am using people who at least have one masters. His current SLP has two masters. You move up the food chain and you'll find a person who can make this happen. Or just do it yourself with Barton.

1 hour ago, Lucy478 said:

For what it’s worth, my daughter has taken well to AAS, at least so far. 

You can look at AAR, the companion reading program. For some kids with dyslexia it's enough. I didn't use it because my ds couldn't even make progress with AAR-pre, lol. So for him, Barton was a better call. And we periodically have people coming through who are like AAR didn't cut the mustard, they tried Barton, and boom it got there. But there's nothing wrong with the content of AAR. Barton is just assuming a dyslexic student, someone who needs significant work to make things click. For my ds it was BRILLIANT and you would not go wrong with Barton. It's fully scripted and it will allow you to kick reading butt and kick it FAST, as fast and as much as you're willing to work.

1 hour ago, Lucy478 said:

Much of her poor accuracy I attribute to her vision tracking and inattention. We’re “plowing” through Magic Treehouse because she loves the series, I didn’t mean the word negatively!  Any word she needed help sounding out I circle – and in the last couple books, on average she needed help with only a few words in each chapter. Her errors are generally things like leaving out words, reading words in the wrong order, or saying the wrong word (which, when prompted, she is able to correct, without further explicit direction/instruction).

I'm going to challenge you on that. Her vision problems should cause her fatigue, rubbing of the eyes, shying away, putting her head at odd angles, complaining of being tired. It could cause her to *skip lines*. Beyond that, everything else you just described is DYSLEXIA.

So honestly, you're making a beginner mistake. Put her through OG. Put her through OG thoroughly. Only read decodable text until she is completely through the basic levels. With Barton that would be Barton 1-4. 

That's it. If you do those things and work on breaking the bad habits, the guessing, etc. will stop. She's so bright that she's faking you out and covering what is weak. Barton is going to be SUPREME at fleshing that out, because it's going to use a lot of nonsense words that she can't guess at using context. Maybe AAR does something similar, dunno. I have some of the readers for AAR and they're adorable. I'm just saying I can vouch for Barton because it was gangbusters for my ds. We worked about 2 hours a day and he was reading at a 5th/6th gr level by the end of 1st grade. 

Barton will send you pdf placement tests btw. It might be interesting for you to ask for them and talk it through with her. You might find the holes if you use nonsense words instead of using text that she can guess based on context. She's very bright and she's assuredly doing that. My ds had mammoth amounts of memorized language that masked his language disabilities. You have to consider their brightness in the intervention, because they use it to mask their disabilities. You want her to have THOROUGH intervention.

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss  Here's the link for the Barton student screening. She should pass it just fine, but I would give it anyway just to be sure. Then she can give you the pdfs of the end of level tests for each level and see how she places. If she completes level 1 in less than 2 weeks she'll let you TRADE for the next level. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

4 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

 

Much of her poor accuracy I attribute to her vision tracking and inattention. We’re “plowing” through Magic Treehouse because she loves the series, I didn’t mean the word negatively!  Any word she needed help sounding out I circle – and in the last couple books, on average she needed help with only a few words in each chapter. Her errors are generally things like leaving out words, reading words in the wrong order, or saying the wrong word (which, when prompted, she is able to correct, without further explicit direction/instruction). I'm thinking the last type of error relates to her poor RAN--she knows the word, but can't rapidly/automatically retrieve it. The series might be technically above her reading level, but with tracking scaffolding it doesn’t seem frustratingly difficult.

Yes, I agree with Peter Pan that the descriptions in bold are dyslexia problems. This is what I meant by making sure that she is not guessing. The reason that these errors happen is because she is not properly decoding each word. If you cover the lines with an index card and just reveal one word at a time, it can help this problem.

Here is the thing about guessing like that. It can undermine the remediation process. The brain really has to be trained to read properly, and when it is allowed to read improperly or guess, the brain is not really learning to read during those moments; it's just practicing bad habits.

The comment about her knowing the word but not being able to retrieve it.....there are a few things to unpack there. You might want to read the book The Dyslexic Advantage, which might explain more for you the WHY of not being able to retrieve words from the brain. Actually, what dyslexia remediation does is on the phonological level. Her brain needs to be trained to decode the phonemes, not retrieve the whole word.

I think that you might need to rethink your expectations of fluency. During the remediation, the goal is to work on decoding the small parts of words, not to read a chapter book. Reading the MTH books may be undermining the way the remediation process is going.

If she loves the MTH books, consider reading them aloud to her, instead of having her read them to you. When she reads aloud to you, she should be reading something that is EASY, like an easy reader, so that her brain can be practicing reading on a WORD level and getting every word right.

I really struggled with getting DD to not jump ahead and read whole sentences at a gulp. This is because DD has excellent comprehension, so she could easily guess. Breaking the guessing habit is KEY to the remediation process.

Be aware that Dancing Bears is not teaching the way that OG is. Dancing Bears teaches reading by morphemes, not the phoneme level. I would be wary of trying to do two kinds of remediation at one time. Dancing Bears may seem to be helping with fluency, but remember, fluency is not what you are aiming for at this time.

I never used Barton, but I would have if we had continued homeschooling, because we had tried lots of other things that didn't work. I agree with Peter Pan to consider Barton, which is an OG program, and to follow it exactly, which means not doing any other reading or language arts work in addition to it. It will simplify your instruction time greatly, since you are trying to homeschool and work at the same time.

You mention that she is not starting at ground level. But dyslexia remediation has to start at the ground level and build up, which means you don't want to try to advance her reading level at all right now; you instead should be slowing down and making sure the very basics are solid.

I think you seem to want to establish a starting point at her current reading level and move it forward. When really what needs to happen is to go backwards to the most foundational skills and work on those. Her current reading is shaky, because the foundation is not solid yet.

The phonological level is where the root of the disability is.

The really good news is that starting remediation at age 7 is awesome. The earlier the better. My DD didn't get her diagnosis and start OG tutoring until age 10, and many people have an even later start on remediation than that. Our dyslexia school staff would say that the older the student is, the harder it is to remediate.

So your daughter is actually in a great position, with a diagnosis, a parent who is determined to help her, and being so young. If you step back and slow down, it may seem tedious, but it may get her farther in less time, in the long run.

I suspect you want to hurry and get all this addressed in a short period of time, before she has to go back to school next year. Cramming a bunch of different teaching methods together may actually slow the progress toward the goals, instead of hastening it.

Once she has those foundational decoding skills solidified, then she can start to fly. 😉

Edited October 10, 2020 by Storygirl

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You can look at AAR, the companion reading program. For some kids with dyslexia it's enough.

I didn't use AAR, but I second the suggestion to try it or to try Barton. My 2e son with dyslexia was hard to diagnose because he did really well with a solid traditional phonics program. 

[Lucy478]

Thanks again for all your replies and suggestions. Thinking it over, I agree a singular, integrated program would be the best.  We are admittedly coming from a public school perspective where she would be doing tutoring outside of school, so running on two separate tracks didn’t initially strike as incongruous, but with the shut-down, it really is a missed opportunity to not take just one cohesive approach. 

It now does appears that the Lindamood Bell in our area is offering in-person instruction. I called them up and think this might be the type of approach we’re looking for. Since we did un-enroll her from school, we really do want to remediate as much as we can.  And if she went to Lindamood Bell in the morning, then she could come home, and we’d only have to worry about a little math and some fun activities.  That’s a huge bonus for us as working parents. 

In hindsight, if we had discovered Barton a year ago, and just went with that (instead of listening to reassurances from her first-grade teacher, grumble grumble….), that admittedly sounds like a great singular option.

On what she should be reading, here is her reading Magic Treehouse with me. This is one a first go. I mean, obviously she does have dyslexia, and I’m not under the impression she’s knocking it out of the park, but would you say this book is above her level?  

 It might not be clear from the video, but I do jump in to check any mistakes, so unless I was saying something, she was reading accurately.

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

It now does appears that the Lindamood Bell in our area is offering in-person instruction. I called them up and think this might be the type of approach we’re looking for. Since we did un-enroll her from school, we really do want to remediate as much as we can.  And if she went to Lindamood Bell in the morning, then she could come home, and we’d only have to worry about a little math and some fun activities.  That’s a huge bonus for us as working parents.

When you investigate Lindamood-Bell, ask about the qualifications of the tutors. I got a summer job at a LMB once, long ago. I got two weeks of training, and then worked 40 hour weeks at $13/hour. The parents paid $90/hour. I was a recent college grad and had never taught anything before. I feel really bad for the kids and parents that had me as their tutor!

I've since become a good reading teacher, but back then, I was not good at teaching reading at all. They may have great people, they may not, so just do your due diligence before enrolling.

If I remember correctly, there is not a lot of phonemic awareness work at LMB unless you are in the LiPS program (which she may need). Seeing Stars is all visual. My memory may be fuzzy since it's been a while, but hopefully others can give you more up to date info.

[Kanin]

On 10/9/2020 at 6:53 PM, PeterPan said:

So honestly, you're making a beginner mistake. Put her through OG. Put her through OG thoroughly. Only read decodable text until she is completely through the basic levels. With Barton that would be Barton 1-4. 

I don't think Lindamood-Bell is Orton-Gillingham based, is it?

[Kanin]

Just now, Kanin said:

I don't think Lindamood-Bell is Orton-Gillingham based, is it?

From their website:

HOW DO THE PROGRAMS DIFFERFROM ORTON-GILLINGHAM?

The programs develop the imagery-language connection underlying the reading, comprehension, and math processes. Whereas programs like Orton-Gillingham focus on instructional strategies and expectancies related to phonetic processing, Lindamood-Bell programs stimulate the cognitive skills for reading fluency and language comprehension.

 

But what we want is a focus on sounds, correct? I have never heard the term "phonetic processing" before. This LMB stuff sounds a bit off to me. 

[Lucy478]

4 minutes ago, Kanin said:

When you investigate Lindamood-Bell, ask about the qualifications of the tutors. I got a summer job at a LMB once, long ago. I got two weeks of training, and then worked 40 hour weeks at $13/hour. The parents paid $90/hour. I was a recent college grad and had never taught anything before. I feel really bad for the kids and parents that had me as their tutor!

I've since become a good reading teacher, but back then, I was not good at teaching reading at all. They may have great people, they may not, so just do your due diligence before enrolling.

If I remember correctly, there is not a lot of phonemic awareness work at LMB unless you are in the LiPS program (which she may need). Seeing Stars is all visual. My memory may be fuzzy since it's been a while, but hopefully others can give you more up to date info.

Yeah, I've heard that. It's a downside and arguably over-priced. 😞 I guess the counter-point is supposed to be that they're swapping out teachers every hour (so she'd have 4 shots at a different teacher), and that's is highly scripted and that the teachers are all being monitored and supervised in the center. I also think frankly that it would be good for her to get out and work with other people.... being an only child stuck at home right now is pretty isolating.

[Lucy478]

1 minute ago, Kanin said:

From their website:

HOW DO THE PROGRAMS DIFFERFROM ORTON-GILLINGHAM?

The programs develop the imagery-language connection underlying the reading, comprehension, and math processes. Whereas programs like Orton-Gillingham focus on instructional strategies and expectancies related to phonetic processing, Lindamood-Bell programs stimulate the cognitive skills for reading fluency and language comprehension.

 

But what we want is a focus on sounds, correct? I have never heard the term "phonetic processing" before. This LMB stuff sounds a bit off to me. 

I've heard it variously described as Orton-Gillingham "plus"?  Reading their website and talking to the center director, my personal take is that they just want to use their own language/descriptions so that they sound like they have some secret sauce.  Hearing what they actually do, it sounds very similar to her current O.G. tutoring. 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Lindamood Bell

Whoa, is that what you're getting?? You want to be very careful. LMB has lIPS, which is GREAT GREAT GREAT. But everything beyond that is very niched and is not OG. 

 

2 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

I've heard it variously described as Orton-Gillingham "plus"?  Reading their website and talking to the center director, my personal take is that they just want to use their own language/descriptions so that they sound like they have some secret sauce.  Hearing what they actually do, it sounds very similar to her current O.G. tutoring. 

Uh no. Go to Gander Publishing and you can see their stuff. Now it's true, someone who has extensive experience will use LMB materials *as needed*. But I think you're going to pay more than necessary here to get this center (overhead) plus stuff you don't need plus the sprig you do. And if they are bringing in lots of underlings to train train in their programs, you're going to get less qualified people.

You want ONE EXPERIENCED TUTOR who can SAY what OG program she is CERTIFIED in. And if she happens to also know LMB (most of which you don't need) then fine. But it all starts with the quality and experience of the OG tutor.

So I'll contrast or you. Around here, I can pay $40-60 an hour and get an SLP who is OG certified who will, in one session, do EVERY aspect of the LA related to dyslexia. They're going to 

-work on decoding

-read aloud

-spell

-type

-work on comprehension

I don't know what else

They literally do like 12 things in an hour, lol. I looked at their checklist on the wall for clients and was blown away, lol. But your LMB trained hacks are not doing that. They aren't bringing the rest to the table. 

Ideally, like in your dream world, the tutor would have training in narrative language with a program like Story Grammar Marker and would work on narrative language as well. Usually what you're looking for in a tutor is someone who has a degree in intervention or SLP who ALSO has the OG training. That way they bring more to the table and integrate more into the sessions. The LMB stuff is mainly worthless to you. That's not her problem if she's a straight dyslexic and not what she needs. And I OWN some of the stuff and really like it, so it's not like I'm slamming it. Just saying it's not what a straight dyslexic should need.

Everybody and their brother is willing to take your money. Keep shopping. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

From their website:

HOW DO THE PROGRAMS DIFFERFROM ORTON-GILLINGHAM?

The programs develop the imagery-language connection underlying the reading, comprehension, and math processes. Whereas programs like Orton-Gillingham focus on instructional strategies and expectancies related to phonetic processing, Lindamood-Bell programs stimulate the cognitive skills for reading fluency and language comprehension.

 

But what we want is a focus on sounds, correct? I have never heard the term "phonetic processing" before. This LMB stuff sounds a bit off to me. 

So LMB materials are hitting kids who have visual memory problems, autism, other issues. It's not that they have NO use, but they certainly are not what a traditional, straight dyslexic needs. Unless a dc has a developmental vision problem, they should have no trouble visualizing. And if they have trouble visualizing, language may or may not be the ideal way to work on that. Vision therapy might be more direct, lol. Their Talkies and Verbalizing/Visualizing is an AMAZING program, absolutely amazing and on target. If you have autism. But op isn't dealing with AUTISM, lol. 

There are a lot of kids who aren't completely diagnosed yet, and they end up in clinics because frustrated parents are trying to get answers. And for some kids, working on those things IS the right answer and is the work that should happen. These are routine materials to use with kids with ASD, absolutely. Great stuff. But a straight dyslexic with no vision problems, etc. shouldn't need them. She needs a tutor who is more experienced with DYSLEXIA who can bring more to the table. There's more a tutor specializing in dyslexia will get done that this LMB won't get done. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

Yeah, I've heard that. It's a downside and arguably over-priced. 😞 I guess the counter-point is supposed to be that they're swapping out teachers every hour (so she'd have 4 shots at a different teacher), and that's is highly scripted and that the teachers are all being monitored and supervised in the center. I also think frankly that it would be good for her to get out and work with other people.... being an only child stuck at home right now is pretty isolating.

Please don't do this. Please get an actual OG tutor. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

When you investigate Lindamood-Bell, ask about the qualifications of the tutors. I got a summer job at a LMB once, long ago. I got two weeks of training, and then worked 40 hour weeks at $13/hour. The parents paid $90/hour. I was a recent college grad and had never taught anything before. I feel really bad for the kids and parents that had me as their tutor!

I've since become a good reading teacher, but back then, I was not good at teaching reading at all. They may have great people, they may not, so just do your due diligence before enrolling.

If I remember correctly, there is not a lot of phonemic awareness work at LMB unless you are in the LiPS program (which she may need). Seeing Stars is all visual. My memory may be fuzzy since it's been a while, but hopefully others can give you more up to date info.

Exactly. And we've had other people say the same things. It's great stuff for the right kid. But op is becoming a cash cow with them not fessing up the dc is on a rabbit trail, not getting what she actually needs. 

That dc would go OUT OF HER GOURD with 4 hours of actual OG. And if op gets someone with a masters in intervention or SLP, she's going to get RADICALLY better results than if she goes with a trainee at a center. Oh my. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

But what we want is a focus on sounds, correct? I have never heard the term "phonetic processing" before. This LMB stuff sounds a bit off to me. 

There's a place for it. Some kids have legit comprehension issues due to poor visualization. And V/V is beautiful for this. The process they go through is very similar to what ABA does. So if you have a kid with DLD or ASD that went undiagnosed/untreated and slipped through the system, the kid can go into LMB and actually get some help. It has a use, just it isn't what a straight dyslexic needs typically. 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

On what she should be reading, here is her reading Magic Treehouse with me. This is one a first go. I mean, obviously she does have dyslexia, and I’m not under the impression she’s knocking it out of the park, but would you say this book is above her level?  

 It might not be clear from the video, but I do jump in to check any mistakes, so unless I was saying something, she was reading accurately.

Ok, so I watched your video, and I agree she's getting through a lot there very accurately! They usually suggest something like a 5 finger rule, where if you're putting down more than 5 fingers for mistakes on a page, it's too high. She sounds like she's plugging through. Remind me why you're dissatisfied with the tutor? What are we FIXING here? 

There's a learning to read stage before reading to learn, and clearly reading is hard enough that she's learning to read and not ready to read to learn. That part is obvious. And you can see the motion of her ADHD. How long does she read like that and how does she feel about it? That's about how my ds was reading at a stage (I forget when). That prosody, where she's plowing through punctuation, reflects comprehension and reflects how hard she's working to get through it. Nothing is left to read with expression or scan ahead and predict. 

So for fluency work, you can drop the level of the material, read to recordings, to repeat material. I'm using Rasinksi's series on building fluency with poetry and LOVE it. Prosody, how she sounds and how she respects the punctuation, falls under fluency. 

https://www.timrasinski.com/presentations/article_readingtoday305aprilmay2013_poetry.pdf  Here's Rasinski on why to use poetry. I attended an online workshop with him and he showed video clips of kids at his reading tutoring center doing group choral reading of poetry. Super cool.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  We probably already gave you this, but again here you go. This is narrative language, and you can begin to weave it in.

I'm just wondering, have you ever tried assisted reading with highlighted text? The kindle app can do it either using the text to speech function or paired with audiobooks where the book is marketed as having https://audible.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4538/~/how-can-i-use-immersion-reading-on-a-kindle-device%3F

The reason I ask about the immersion reading is *if* she has no vision problem, she's probably ready for it. However it's kind of conspicuous how much support you're giving her tracking. Personally, I'd go get her eyes checked. I couldn't tell for sure from the video, but some of that shifting seemed to correlate to eyes. You want to make sure there are no convergence or developmental vision issues. 

What you're looking for is a developmental optometrist. https://locate.covd.org  

A good vision exam, first to screen and then with the full developmental exam if needed, would catch things that are really antecedent to some of the other therapies like the LMB. And it can start with just a regular annual visit, but done with the developmental optometrist, where you ask them to SCREEN her developmental vision. 

I just thought it was a significant amount of support for tracking, more than I would have expected. Dyslexia is NOT a vision problem. I would get her eyes checked.

[Kanin]

31 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Please don't do this. Please get an actual OG tutor. 

I have to say, I agree with this. Unless she needs LiPS, and then that would be great. Otherwise, no. I also agree 100% that 4 hours of actual OG would be insanely a lot, and probably an hour a day would be more reasonable. 

Kids do start to flip out at LMB. 4 hours is so much, especially 1-1. 

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Lucy478 said:

my personal take is that they just want to use their own language/descriptions so that they sound like they have some secret sauce

You don't want someone who is selling you something secret. You want someone who is really good at what they do, and who can tell you exactly why. 

If you haven't ordered "Equipped for Reading Success" by Kilpatrick, that would be a valuable resource for you.

[PeterPan]

On 10/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lucy478 said:

Over the summer, she was also diagnosed with a developmental vision problem (tracking), for which she’s been receiving vision therapy.

Oh I'm an idiot, hahaha. You actually got the vision problem diagnosed. I'm a goober, lol. Did you finish the VT? Again, why the bookmarks and excessive tracking help? Are you sure you're done with vision? 

On 10/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lucy478 said:

While she doesn’t seem to struggle with understanding grade-level grammatical concepts or parts of speech (she can do grade-level worksheets just fine), she struggles with generating writing (not physically, more substantively).

So that's the Story Grammar Marker stuff. LMB won't be doing that.

On 10/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lucy478 said:

Her reading accuracy is her lowest score

Was this assessed with nonsense words? Nonsense words are how you bust through that. As you're seeing, she already has enough vocabulary and brightness to power through. 

The other thing that happens with kids who do VT is they get that visual memory and then need to REVIEW. I wouldn't be afraid to REVIEW and let her see afresh what you and the tutor thought she knew earlier. Just quickly mind you. How is her spelling going?

We already talked about RAN/RAS. 

How is her comprehension? 

If her accuracy with the psych doesn't match what the tutor sees in OG and what you see in real life, then I *might* be inclined to think by that point attention or fatigue were a factor. I'm not an expert. I'm just saying you look at the whole picture. 

On 10/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lucy478 said:

• Sight Word Efficiency 100 50% 2.0 (GE) Average
• Phonetic Decoding Efficiency 84 14% 1.2 (GE)  Below Average
• Total Word Reading Efficiency 92 30% N/A Average

There you see it. So those are standard scores, and the 100 and 92 are smack average, technically fine. And that's what you're seeing when she's trying to read MTH. You give her whole read words, give her context, and boom she's there. But you throw nonsense at her and the phonological processing disability is obvious. And the intervention for that IS OG. Every day of the week. OG. 

So I'm looking at this score, and even though it looks scary to see a 14%ile, reality is that 84 would *barely* get her a blink in the ps. That's basically 1.5 standard deviations. That's just where it starts to become significant. So it's horrible, but given how young she is I dn't know, I'm trying to put it in context. 

You're basically asking whether you can use one score that is 1.5SD low to conclude something about a tutor, and I dno't know that I would. I think look at the rest of your situation. What you need is NONSENSE words to bust out of that, and that's OG. A tutor, Barton, whatever. I dn't know how much of it is in AAR. AAR could be more expensive for you than 4 levels of Barton, but you know knock yourself out. I think you might be horrified if you give her the Barton end of level tests. Just saying. Right now you're thinking she doesn't need it, but you might do one and see the gaps. Barton will send them to you for free.

On 10/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lucy478 said:

• Rate 9 37% 2.0 (GE) Average
• Accuracy 8 25% 1.2 (GE) Average
•  Fluency Score 8 25% 1.7 (GE) Average
• Comprehension Score 10 50% 2.2 (GE) Average
• Oral Reading Quotient SS = 94 34% N/A Average

Again, not to quote your scores, but they're not very personal anyway. Those digits (8, 9, 10, etc.) are scaled scores. So a scaled score is somewhat different from a standard score. They *convert* scores to scaled scores. Usually with scaled scores the mean is 10 and a SD (standard deviation) is 3. So all her scores here, though frightfully low, are not even one standard deviation. Check, but I'm just saying. And I know the percentiles are freakish, but that's why we don't look at percentiles. The ps would look at the scaled scores. They tell you SIGNIFICANCE because they tell you how those scores were spread under a bell curve and how SIGNIFICANT her score is discrepant from her peers. It can be very misleading or disconcerting to look at percentiles alone, because there can be a range that is actually within the "normal" range for her age. 

So at this point she has relative weaknesses, and the scores are reflecting her issues. Her brightness is covering for you and her peers will pull ahead, absolutely. But I'm just saying it might not be fair to look at those scores and conclude *the tutor failed*. The scores don't say that.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm just gonna ask because I ask. Did she have any developmental delays or differences, speech/language issues, etc. Have you ever wondered if she's on the spectrum? 

And does she always talk like that (with that really high voice) or is that only when she's focusing hard on reading? Her voice seemed to go down to a natural tone and then go back up. Have you pursued mindfulness activities for anxiety?

https://www.shambhala.com/sittingstilllikeafrog/

[PeterPan]

Something aimed at helping parents interpret their dc's test scores

https://www.wrightslaw.com/whitepaper/test.scores.whitepaper.pdf

[Lucy478]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm just gonna ask because I ask. Did she have any developmental delays or differences, speech/language issues, etc. Have you ever wondered if she's on the spectrum? 

And does she always talk like that (with that really high voice) or is that only when she's focusing hard on reading? Her voice seemed to go down to a natural tone and then go back up. Have you pursued mindfulness activities for anxiety?

https://www.shambhala.com/sittingstilllikeafrog/

I think that's just her poor reading fluency you're seeing. She's not without her problems but none of the autism symptoms have ever fit her. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

So at this point she has relative weaknesses, and the scores are reflecting her issues. Her brightness is covering for you and her peers will pull ahead, absolutely.

From the video, I would say she's about where my son was at that reading stage, and he did really well with a rugged phonics program. Had he gotten a diagnosis at that age, I probably would've plunked down the money and gotten Barton. It just seemed like overkill when everyone said his reading was fine. But he sounded, in general, about like your DD. 

 

[kbutton]

Incidentally, my son also tends to still skip words here and there. He reads for pleasure and seems to have excellent comprehension. I just would've liked for learning to read to have been smoother with materials more suited to his needs. 

[Terabith]

The only time I would do Lindamood Bell is if they're doing LIPS.  They prefer to do Seeing Stars, and honestly, it sucks.  Plus it's insanely expensive.  I really, really wouldn't do it.  

I'd do Barton.  And for reading connected text, I want it to be relatively easy, because the goal is fluency and comprehension and enjoyment.  She's making her way through Magic Treehouse, but that's arduous.  Try Mr. Putter and Tabby.  One of the things you're looking at isn't how hard the words are but how much white space is on the page, how big is the font, etc.  Stuff like that makes a HUGE difference.  

[Kanin]

On 10/13/2020 at 7:17 PM, PeterPan said:

You give her whole read words, give her context, and boom she's there. But you throw nonsense at her and the phonological processing disability is obvious. And the intervention for that IS OG. Every day of the week. OG. 

Agree completely. Kids with great reading comprehension really get the short end of the stick when it comes to being identified with reading disabilities. They KNOW what word should come next, and often use the first letter of a word to help them correctly infer the word. If you show them the word in isolation, nope, can't read it. Or give them nonsense words like PeterPan suggested, that's when you'll see the contrast between actual decoding and compensating with good reading comprehension.

This is a HUGE problem in schools because lower elementary classrooms frequently use predictable books with pictures for assessments, and smart kids know what words should be there, although they can't read them, and they're able to hide their poor decoding skills by managing to guess the correct words. This works till about 3rd grade and then it all falls apart. It's really a travesty. 

[PeterPan]

24 minutes ago, Kanin said:

smart kids know what words should be there,

I see it with my ds now as we're reading aloud more and more with more complex material. He will change verb tenses, add/subtract words, etc. because his brain is predicting faster than he's reading. It's easier for him to predict and think he got it than to slow down and actually READ each and every word. So then he's going to have misunderstandings and also not get that language input, especially if the syntax was less familiar and he's substituting simpler, more familiar forms. 

[Storygirl]

15 hours ago, Kanin said:

Agree completely. Kids with great reading comprehension really get the short end of the stick when it comes to being identified with reading disabilities. They KNOW what word should come next, and often use the first letter of a word to help them correctly infer the word. If you show them the word in isolation, nope, can't read it. Or give them nonsense words like PeterPan suggested, that's when you'll see the contrast between actual decoding and compensating with good reading comprehension.

This is a HUGE problem in schools because lower elementary classrooms frequently use predictable books with pictures for assessments, and smart kids know what words should be there, although they can't read them, and they're able to hide their poor decoding skills by managing to guess the correct words. This works till about 3rd grade and then it all falls apart. It's really a travesty. 

This exactly describes my dyslexic daughter, except that at those early grades, she was homeschooled.  I realized what was happening, but I"m sure that it could easily have been missed if she had been in public school. Actually, I took her to a dyslexic school (not the one that she eventually attended, which I sometimes mention) for a free reading screening, and the guy told me that she passed their test and was doing fine. I was so frustrated by that that I argued with him! So she could even fool a person who really should have been able to tell.