Living Book US History

[NewIma]

Has anyone put together a US History high school credit with living books? Ideally it would be secular, but I can adapt a curriculum if needed.  Or do you have a text book spine you really loved?

[NewIma]

Ideally, afterwards dd would be prepared for the SAT US History subject test.

[EKS]

We loved The American Odyssey as a spine.  Unfortunately I am not home right now so I can't look at my notes about the supplements we used.  I know one was Zinn.  

The great thing about using a spine is that the living books you choose can be about things you find important or interesting rather than needing to cover the entire range.

[NewIma]

EKS, thank you! That is a good point regarding using a spine. I will look into The American Odyssey! I am putting together a living book geography credit, but with that I am less worried about gaps. For US history I want to make sure I hit all the big points. In the younger grades we've spread US history over two years. Doing it in one year for high school seems so condensed!

[Lori D.]

10 hours ago, NewIma said:

Ideally, afterwards dd would be prepared for the SAT US History subject test.

Your best bet to score well on the test is to also specifically study for it and to do some practice tests to get a feel for how to apply the information you've learned in a way that translates into a good score. Check out this Prep Scholar article on "Complete Study Guide: SAT US History Subject Test".

One suggestion would be to compile a list of the major topics and people who are likely to appear on the test, and then find living books on those topics and people. It looks like there is a lot of overlap in topics with the AP and SAT Subject tests for American History, so looking at the table of contents for topics from the AP list of textbooks might be a helpful starting point for compiling your own living book list and topic list to go along with a spine text, as EKS suggests above.

AP Textbooks for American History

• Berkin, Carol, Christopher L. Miller, Robert W. Cherny, and James L. Gormly. Making America: A History of the United States. 7th edition. National Geographic Learning/Cengage Learning, 2015.
• Boyer, Paul S., Clifford E. Clark Jr., Karen Halttuenen, Joseph F. Kett, Neal Salisbury, Harvard Stikoff, and Nancy Woloch. The Enduring Vision, A History of the American People (AP Edition). 7th edition. National Geographic Learning/Cengage Learning, 2011.
• Brinkley, Alan. American History: Connecting with the Past, Updated AP Edition. 15th edition. McGraw-Hill Education, 2014.
• Corbett, P. Scott, Volker Janssen, John M. Lund, Todd Pfannestiel, Sylvie Waskiewiewicz, and Paul Vickery. U.S. History. OpenStax, 2014.
• Davidson, James West, Brian DeLay, Christine Leigh Heyman, Mark H. Lytle, and Michael B. Stoff. Experience History, Interpreting America's Past. 9th edition. McGraw-Hill Education, 2019.
• Divine, Robert A., T.H. Breen, R. Hal Williams, Ariela J. Gross, H.W. Brands. America Past and Present. 10th Edition, Pearson, 2013.
• Faragher, John Mack, Mari Jo Buhle, Daniel Czitrom, and Susan H. Armitage. Out of Many: A History of the American People. 8th edition. Pearson, 2016.
• Foner, Eric. Give Me Liberty, AP Edition. 5th edition. W.W. Norton and Company, 2016.
• Fraser, James.By the People: A History of the United States. 2nd edition. Pearson, 2016.
• Henkin, David and Rebecca McLennan. Becoming America, A History for the 21st Century. 1st edition. McGraw-Hill Education, 2014.
• Henretta, James A., Eric Hinderaker, Rebecca Edwards, and Robert O. Self. America’s History, For the AP^®Course. 8th edition. Bedford/St. Martin’s, 2014.
• Kamensky, Jane, Carol Sheriff, David W. Blight, Howard P. Chudacoff, Fredrik Logevall, Beth Bailey, and Mary Beth Norton. A People and a Nation: A History of the United States. 11th edition. Cengage Learning, 2019.
• Kennedy, David M., and Lizabeth Cohen. The American Pageant. 17th edition. National Geographic Learning/Cengage Learning, 2019.
• Locke, Joseph and Ben Wright, eds. The American Yawp. Stanford University Press, 2019.
• Murrin, John, Pekka Hämäläinen, Paul E. Johnson, Denver Brunsman, James McPherson, Alice Fahs, Gary Gerstle, Emily S. Rosenberg, and Norman Rosenberg. Liberty, Equality, Power: A History of the American People. 7th edition. Cengage, 2015.
• Oakes, James, Michael McGerr, Jan Ellen Lewis, Nick Cullather, Jeanne Boydston, Mark Summers, Camilla Townsend, and Karen Dunak. Of the People: A History of the United States. 3rd edition. Oxford University Press, 2015.
• Shi, David E.. America: A Narrative History. 11th edition. W.W. Norton and Company, 2019.
• Stacy, Jason, and Ellington, Matthew, J. Fabric of a Nation: A Brief History with Skills and Sources. 1st edition. New York: Bedford/St. Martins/BFW, 2020.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Lori D.

[Momto6inIN]

We also liked American Odyssey for a textbook.

Not living books or textbooks, but we also really liked Great Courses US History. DD learned a ton from listening and taking notes.

[Terabith]

Yeah, I think the goals of "studying US history" and "preparing to do well on the SAT test" are honestly two entirely different goals that may intersect at some points.  

Great Courses have some amazing ones for US history, and it would be a good way to practice note taking.  I love Zinn, but it probably wouldn't prepare you well for the SAT test.  I'm not sure you can honestly do living books and prepare for the SAT test (which is pretty specialized) in a one year course, realistically.  

[8filltheheart]

You might want to look at Paul Johnson's History of the American People. It is an enjoyable read and my kids have scored high on the 2 American history CLEP exams after using it.

[Lori D.]

Gosh, Newlma, I feel like I keep "raining on your parade" of DIY and living book high school courses (i.e. this post, your Geography course post...). 😬

Just to clarify why I posted what I did above -- First, I totally support going "DIY", and using living books. That's a great way to learn, esp. if it the best fit for a particular student.

In this case, I was agreeing with previous posters that if you want the ADDITIONAL goal of taking the SAT Subject History test and scoring well, that you will mostly likely need to use some sort of spine text (American Odyssey, History of the American People, Great Courses lecture series, or one of the AP textbook ideas) *in addition* to your living books, in order to make sure you've covered the scope of events that will be on the SAT Subject test. I was only suggesting looking at the table of contents of some of those AP textbooks in that list (which is on College Board as texts that the AP test draws from), so you could get a feel for the scope of events that might be on the SAT Subject test. The College Board website (which administers both AP and SAT Subject tests) says that there is overlap in the material of the AP American History test and the SAT Subject test for History.

Hope that clarifies! BEST of luck in your high school History (and Geography!) adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[NewIma]

Thank everyone! I will check out the suggested text books! I just want whatever we use to be as engaging as possible. I remember reading the most boring history textbooks EVER.  Doing US history in one year just seems so difficult to me because I want to follow all the rabbit trails. A text book will probably keep us focused and help prepare for the test.

I like the idea of watching great courses to shake things up and practice note taking. 

Terabith, my mom had me read A People's History of the United States and I think may regret it. Lol I give it some some substantial credit for my world view.

Lori D.! You aren't raining on my parade at all! I appreciate your feedback so much. I love this thread because I can have other serious homeschoolers give me feedback.

 

[Farrar]

On 9/26/2020 at 3:00 PM, Terabith said:

Yeah, I think the goals of "studying US history" and "preparing to do well on the SAT test" are honestly two entirely different goals that may intersect at some points.  

Just quoting for truth. These are two totally different, both potentially good, but different goals. 

Newlma, you've got an 8th grader and you're looking ahead in your posts right now. I just want to suggest that you clarify for yourself a little bit what the big picture goals are along two fronts. First, the education end. And second, the getting into college, big life goals end. And think about where each one compromises for the other... and where they work together. You can totally develop a getting into college strategy that does not involve much testing or outside "validation." That is absolutely doable and would, in fact, involve interesting coursework with living books at a high level. OR, you can develop a strategy that involves a lot of testing and outside validation. When you look at it this year... I feel like that's a limited end. I mean, these tests. This year is a mess. And the end effect is going to be a big de-emphasizing of tests at many major schools. Doesn't mean they'll go away, but I still see homeschoolers going all in on testing and it's like... there are other options here. Potentially better options.

I think a living books US history course sounds amazing. It's basically what we're doing this year. But I'm not looking for my kids to take the SAT II or the AP exam.

[NewIma]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

Newlma, you've got an 8th grader and you're looking ahead in your posts right now. I just want to suggest that you clarify for yourself a little bit what the big picture goals are along two fronts. First, the education end. And second, the getting into college, big life goals end. And think about where each one compromises for the other... and where they work together. You can totally develop a getting into college strategy that does not involve much testing or outside "validation." That is absolutely doable and would, in fact, involve interesting coursework with living books at a high level. OR, you can develop a strategy that involves a lot of testing and outside validation. When you look at it this year... I feel like that's a limited end. I mean, these tests. This year is a mess. And the end effect is going to be a big de-emphasizing of tests at many major schools. Doesn't mean they'll go away, but I still see homeschoolers going all in on testing and it's like... there are other options here. Potentially better options.

I think a living books US history course sounds amazing. It's basically what we're doing this year. But I'm not looking for my kids to take the SAT II or the AP exam.

Farrar, this is totally the problem. I don't know what I want! I am a planner (as you can tell) and I had been planning for lots of outside testing and validation, but now as high school is getting closer I don't want to give up the beauty of our current homeschool setup. We are not looking at a lot of in person classes-maybe just chemistry and physics at the local cc. With that in mind, I'm not sure how much SAT II or AP testing we "need." Ideally, our college goal is a small liberal arts school with 30-35% admissions rate or a state school honors college.  Obviously, she will have an opinion about that eventually, but those are the options we want to have available for her. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My youngest did US History last year.  I had him listen to the US History Great Courses set.

I also assigned The Autobiography of Frederick Douglass, Hidden Figures, and The Right Stuff.

[8filltheheart]

23 minutes ago, NewIma said:

Farrar, this is totally the problem. I don't know what I want! I am a planner (as you can tell) and I had been planning for lots of outside testing and validation, but now as high school is getting closer I don't want to give up the beauty of our current homeschool setup. We are not looking at a lot of in person classes-maybe just chemistry and physics at the local cc. With that in mind, I'm not sure how much SAT II or AP testing we "need." Ideally, our college goal is a small liberal arts school with 30-35% admissions rate or a state school honors college.  Obviously, she will have an opinion about that eventually, but those are the options we want to have available for her. 

You do not need to plan high school around testing or outsourced courses.  My kids rarely use textbooks.  Most of their courses are designed around their personal goals.  Your whole book approach is most definitely a viable one!!  Don't abandon your vision! 

In terms of testing, first, who knows what the future holds in terms of the importance of testing?  The landscape is in a state of flux right now and it will be a couple of yrs to see how this yr shakes out and influences the future. Second, prioritize tests.  At this pt, the SAT or the ACT scores are still the most important ones.  Only a handful of schools require subject tests. Of those, only a few require multiple.  You can simply have your student take the subject tests that fit their strengths. No school requires AP test scores for admission.  AP scores can be used to replace subject test scores at a tiny # of schools that require subject test scores from homeschoolers.  

[Farrar]

Seconding everything 8 said above. Especially seconding that the SAT/ACT is the only test that is actually likely to be required - even that is in question as a requirement - it's likely to continue to be an option that helps students stand out at the vast majority of schools. There are now exactly zero schools that require SAT Subject Tests for admission for the general population. And maybe half a dozen that require them of homeschoolers? They are recommended at a few more schools, at a couple for general admission and at a few more for homeschoolers... but we're talking about a super tiny number of schools. I think homeschoolers haven't quite caught up with this news, especially the "planners" who started envisioning what high school would be like five or more years ago but are starting now. That particular test - especially with the UC's test blind policy - is essentially done.

SAT/ACT + AP/SAT Subject Tests can be a primary strategy for admission. But... it doesn't sound like you want that to be your strategy for admission. And... it's sort of a hard one to win, IMHO. In order for testing to be your frontline strategy, your student has to ace a lot of tests, because they're entering into competition with the kids who take tests - and they tend to take a lot of them.

Doing pretty well on the SAT/ACT and having interesting coursework and extracurriculars is absolutely a solid strategy too. And if you are just eying a particular state school that takes the majority of applicants, you may not even need a big "strategy" in the first place. That's why it's not a bad thing to work backwards a bit from the schools and programs that might interest your student. And you may not have a sense of that until well after 9th grade, which is totally okay.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Farrar

[NewIma]

Thank you Lori and Farrar! I really appreciate the feedback. I think I need to spend some time mulling this all over. My husband and I met at a liberal arts school and our kids have visited many times and love it. I don't know that is where they will want to go in the end, but I feel a responsibility to make it an option for them, that I need to make sure they could go if they wanted to. The average ACT range there now is 29-33 and that feels like a lot of pressure.  I spoke to an admissions person this summer and he said they value SAT II and AP tests over cc classes for homeschoolers. But I love living and interesting books more than checking off boxes. So once again, I think I just need to spend some more time reflecting on what is going to be best for my kid. Maybe lightning will strike and my path will suddenly be obvious? Lol

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, NewIma said:

Thank you Lori and Farrar! I really appreciate the feedback. I think I need to spend some time mulling this all over. My husband and I met at a liberal arts school and our kids have visited many times and love it. I don't know that is where they will want to go in the end, but I feel a responsibility to make it an option for them, that I need to make sure they could go if they wanted to. The average ACT range there now is 29-33 and that feels like a lot of pressure.  I spoke to an admissions person this summer and he said they value SAT II and AP tests over cc classes for homeschoolers. But I love living and interesting books more than checking off boxes. So once again, I think I just need to spend some more time reflecting on what is going to be best for my kid. Maybe lightning will strike and my path will suddenly be obvious? Lol

Do they require subject test scores from homeschoolers? If so, did he say how many/which ones? Was the admission person the person responsible for reviewing homeschool applications?  

FWIW, if a 29-33 "feels like a lot of pressure," then my recommendation is to just not think about it.  He is an 8th grader.  Trust me that who he is right now will not be who he is as he progresses through high school.  Kids change a lot during their teen yrs, obviously differently but almost as dramatically as when they are growing from toddlerhood to school age.  Provide him with a solid education that is designed around YOUR vision for his education.  If you provide him a solid education NOT focused on tests but on equipping him with the knowledge and skills you want him to possess, he will be fine.  

As I posted above, if he needs subject tests later, then have him take the tests that fit his strengths.  Kids who are taking standard high school sequence math can take the math subject tests without needing to alter their sequence or content.  Most LAC's require 4 yrs of foreign language, so he can take a foreign language test.  That is 2 tests right there.  Only a handful of schools require more than 2.  If you are targeting a specific school, then you might have to jump through their hoops.  Otherwise, it is very easy to find schools that want your student for who they are and their accomplishments vs. spending 4 yrs morphing into the school's.

FWIW, my kids have never had any problems with college admissions.  We also don't start thinking about college selection until mid-jr yr bc we don't run our lives around a 4 yr school.  We do find schools to fit them vs the other way around. 

A HUGE FWIW, if you haven't spent time understanding financial aid, then that is where I would spend my energy and focus now.  Understanding the FA process is completely appropriate when you have an 8th grader and as parents what you can control. Unless you have $300,000+ (and in 5 yrs it will probably be encroaching on $350,000+) saved for his college attendance, finances/financial aid might be the #1 criteria for college selection.  It is for most families.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[NewIma]

Thank you 8filltheheart! That is a good point. If we have her do both math and spanish SAT subject tests, plus the SAT and ACT, that does seem like plenty. I might be overthinking or imagining more testing is needed than it really is. 

Financial aid will be a deciding factor for sure. The cost is shocking when you think about it.

[NewIma]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:20 PM, Farrar said:

Just quoting for truth. These are two totally different, both potentially good, but different goals. 

Newlma, you've got an 8th grader and you're looking ahead in your posts right now. I just want to suggest that you clarify for yourself a little bit what the big picture goals are along two fronts. First, the education end. And second, the getting into college, big life goals end. And think about where each one compromises for the other... and where they work together. You can totally develop a getting into college strategy that does not involve much testing or outside "validation." That is absolutely doable and would, in fact, involve interesting coursework with living books at a high level. OR, you can develop a strategy that involves a lot of testing and outside validation. When you look at it this year... I feel like that's a limited end. I mean, these tests. This year is a mess. And the end effect is going to be a big de-emphasizing of tests at many major schools. Doesn't mean they'll go away, but I still see homeschoolers going all in on testing and it's like... there are other options here. Potentially better options.

I think a living books US history course sounds amazing. It's basically what we're doing this year. But I'm not looking for my kids to take the SAT II or the AP exam.

Going back to this Farrar, would you mind sharing the materials you are using?

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, NewIma said:

Going back to this Farrar, would you mind sharing the materials you are using?

Unlike for the last two years, when I had an overall plan and most of the text of the program done, I'm winging it this year. Like I said, we're not doing a chronological approach, but are doing four different themes in American history. Right now, our theme for this unit is race and we're using Stamped by Ibram Kendi, parts of People's History of the United States, and lots of primary sources as well as watching documentaries. We're doing some parts of Eyes on the Prize right now and gosh, it sure holds up. I considered using The Warmth of Other Suns for this unit too, but my kids are simply not big readers, so there are limits here for us.

We're doing a unit on migration and we'll almost certainly use A Different Mirror. When we do our unit on ideas, which is maybe next, then I'd like to use at least one of the Sarah Vowell books - probably Wordy Shipmates. And maybe also read American Sphinx. I'm undecided. I promised the kids that we'd close with a unit just about the history of popular culture in America and I really am having trouble finding good books for that which cover more than a single thing. So we'll see how that goes.

My approach is blended and we do literature in conjunction as well (our literature books for this unit have included Their Eyes Were Watching God, Sing Unburied Sing, and Huck Finn, for example) so we've got our hands in a lot of pots. Living books is just one of them. If you want to see what the end result looks like for us - there are samples for the curriculum I wrote for Africa/Asia and Europe in my sig. This should come out similar in the end. History with a bit of textbook backup for big picture, a few key living books, coordinated with literature with a literary theme, and with literature of the time period.

[NewIma]

19 hours ago, Farrar said:

Unlike for the last two years, when I had an overall plan and most of the text of the program done, I'm winging it this year. Like I said, we're not doing a chronological approach, but are doing four different themes in American history. Right now, our theme for this unit is race and we're using Stamped by Ibram Kendi, parts of People's History of the United States, and lots of primary sources as well as watching documentaries. We're doing some parts of Eyes on the Prize right now and gosh, it sure holds up. I considered using The Warmth of Other Suns for this unit too, but my kids are simply not big readers, so there are limits here for us.

We're doing a unit on migration and we'll almost certainly use A Different Mirror. When we do our unit on ideas, which is maybe next, then I'd like to use at least one of the Sarah Vowell books - probably Wordy Shipmates. And maybe also read American Sphinx. I'm undecided. I promised the kids that we'd close with a unit just about the history of popular culture in America and I really am having trouble finding good books for that which cover more than a single thing. So we'll see how that goes.

My approach is blended and we do literature in conjunction as well (our literature books for this unit have included Their Eyes Were Watching God, Sing Unburied Sing, and Huck Finn, for example) so we've got our hands in a lot of pots. Living books is just one of them. If you want to see what the end result looks like for us - there are samples for the curriculum I wrote for Africa/Asia and Europe in my sig. This should come out similar in the end. History with a bit of textbook backup for big picture, a few key living books, coordinated with literature with a literary theme, and with literature of the time period.

WOW!! That sounds amazing!! A few of them are new to me so I am going to go do some searching! Thank you!