Older dog hip support/possible death

[Tree Frog]

We have a 10 year old 60 lb shepherd mix dog who is having issues with her hips that significantly worsened within the last couple of weeks. Her hips have been sliding out from her when she plays with our other dog, and the vet said as long as she wasn't in pain it was ok for them to continue playing. We just returned from a week long trip dropping ds off at college and her hips have worsened to the point that she is struggling to get back up after crouching to use the bathroom. Her hips almost look like they are moving independently of each other instead of in sync. She clearly still wants to play and tried running after our other dog this morning, but we called them off. I've ordered this sling to help, but does anyone have other suggestions for a hip brace or where I could purchase something with wheels? (She has other health problems, but those are being addressed. She is on chondroitin and fish oil in addition to pain pills.) 

I'm hoping she can make it at least until the holidays when the kids return from college so each of the kids can say their goodbyes and we can handle her death together as a family.  However, we don't want her to suffer and will make decisions based on what's best for her if needed before they can come home. None of us expected her to decline so quickly. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Thank you.

[Pawz4me]

Not a suggestion, but a question --

What was her situation while you were away? Was she boarded, at home with a pet sitter visiting, etc.?

I'm wondering if there was something specific about the last week that caused a temporary worsening of her hips. Like if she was boarded in a kennel with concrete flooring?

I would think there would be something else that could be done. Ten isn't very old, except for the biggest of dogs. Have you discussed trying Adequan injections with your vet? Many years ago I had a young Rottie with awful hips, and Adequan did miraculous things for her.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Pawz4me

[itsheresomewhere]

Has she had an X-ray to see what the problem is? Some vets don’t always do xrays when the dog is older with hip problems.  I would start first with an X-ray and go from there.  There are some really good medicines that can really help.  

[ktgrok]

Is she on any medication for this? Dasaquin, Adequan injections, daily carprofen? My dog has hip issues and is on carprofen twice a day, plus Dasaquin supplement. Carprofen is like doggie Celebrex (except they don't get heart problems from it like people can). Would REALLY help with pain, which dog usually show by being slow and struggling to get up. 

Also, it could be a back problem rather than hips at this point, or in addition to hips - gabapentin or steroids can help with that. Definitely schedule vet visit asap and give a trial of pain meds before making any decisions. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Selkie]

I have a shepherd mix with bad hips and we have been able to improve his situation tremendously with the following:

Adequan injections - he gets them once a month now, but they were more frequent in the beginning

Carprovet

Gabapentin

Dasuquin chews

Veterinary Naturals Hemp & Hips chews

Hill's Prescription J/D Joint Care food

Big Barker orthopedic dog beds

 

[Tree Frog]

18 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Not a suggestion, but a question --

What was her situation while you were away? Was she boarded, at home with a pet sitter visiting, etc.?

I'm wondering if there was something specific about the last week that caused a temporary worsening of her hips. Like if she was boarded in a kennel with concrete flooring?

I would think there would be something else that could be done. Ten isn't very old, except for the biggest of dogs. Have you discussed trying Adequan injections with your vet? Many years ago I had a young Rottie with awful hips, and Adequan did miraculous things for her.

She was boarded at home with someone staying with them, but when the sitter left, he kenneled them. We're thinking they were kenneled more than we expected and that caused much of the decline.

What does Adequan do? We're looking at adding something to her carprofen for pain, but at this point the pain seems secondary. When I took her in about a month ago, the vet just said she had a lot of muscle wasting in her hips. The vet isn't in today, but she'll return my call tomorrow and I'll ask her about Adequan.

[Tree Frog]

22 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Not a suggestion, but a question --

What was her situation while you were away? Was she boarded, at home with a pet sitter visiting, etc.?

I'm wondering if there was something specific about the last week that caused a temporary worsening of her hips. Like if she was boarded in a kennel with concrete flooring?

I would think there would be something else that could be done. Ten isn't very old, except for the biggest of dogs. Have you discussed trying Adequan injections with your vet? Many years ago I had a young Rottie with awful hips, and Adequan did miraculous things for her.

We are surprised at what a young age she's been declining. She was a rescue dog that we got when she was about 12 months old. she wasn't a very good situation. 

Our house is tiled except for upstairs. We've been adding outdoor rugs inside to make it easier for her to move. The outdoor rugs don't slide as much as the runners and inside rugs do, even when we put a non slide pad under them.

[Tree Frog]

17 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Has she had an X-ray to see what the problem is? Some vets don’t always do xrays when the dog is older with hip problems.  I would start first with an X-ray and go from there.  There are some really good medicines that can really help.  

We had x rays taken about 9 years ago when we suspected there would be problems. Her hip socket is round, but at the time, the ball of her thigh was squared rather than round. We probably won't do further x rays simply because we're seeing a decline in her thinking, hearing, and vision as well as her hips. She is essentially a young senior dog.

[Tree Frog]

13 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Is she on any medication for this? Dasaquin, Adequan injections, daily carprofen? My dog has hip issues and is on carprofen twice a day, plus Dasaquin supplement. Carprofen is like doggie Celebrex (except they don't get heart problems from it like people can). Would REALLY help with pain, which dog usually show by being slow and struggling to get up. 

Also, it could be a back problem rather than hips at this point, or in addition to hips - gabapentin or steroids can help with that. Definitely schedule vet visit asap and give a trial of pain meds before making any decisions. 

 

13 hours ago, Selkie said:

I have a shepherd mix with bad hips and we have been able to improve his situation tremendously with the following:

Adequan injections - he gets them once a month now, but they were more frequent in the beginning

Carprovet

Gabapentin

Dasuquin chews

Veterinary Naturals Hemp & Hips chews

Hill's Prescription J/D Joint Care food

Big Barker orthopedic dog beds

 

I'm quoting these together because you both mention meds. She's currently on the highest dose of daily Carprofin she can be. The vet has said we'll add Gabapentin next. We have some left over from when we tried the gabapentin before the carprofen, but it didn't help her pain. I'm hoping the combination of the two will help.

I believe the Dasaquin is similar to the Cosequin we're currently using. I'll talk to the vet tomorrow to see about adding Adequan. I'm surprised she didn't mention it when we talked about her hips at an appt about a month ago.

She has a couple of orthopedic beds, one in her kennel and one out. She prefers sleeping in her kennel, but we won't be closing her in it anymore. 

I'll look at changing her dog food to the joint care.

That's an interesting thought about it possibly being her back instead of hips. We assumed it was her hips due to an x ray we had done many years ago that showed hip joint issues. My dd wants to order a food/water bowl combo that sits higher to see if that will help, but is having a difficult time finding one in stock. If it's a back issue, that may help. Does anyone have suggestions on where to find one? It needs to be a rubber base because Kya will push it in her eagerness to eat. 

Thank you all for your suggestions! We have a way to move forward now.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by wilrunner
cleaned up incomplete sentence

[Pawz4me]

36 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

 

What does Adequan do? We're looking at adding something to her carprofen for pain, but at this point the pain seems secondary. When I took her in about a month ago, the vet just said she had a lot of muscle wasting in her hips. The vet isn't in today, but she'll return my call tomorrow and I'll ask her about Adequan.

@Ktgrok can no doubt answer that better than I can. It's been a very long time since I used it, but my very layman's understanding then was that it works as an anti-inflammatory and also increases synovial fluid (the fluid that surrounds and cushions joints).

[ktgrok]

56 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

We are surprised at what a young age she's been declining. She was a rescue dog that we got when she was about 12 months old. she wasn't a very good situation. 

Our house is tiled except for upstairs. We've been adding outdoor rugs inside to make it easier for her to move. The outdoor rugs don't slide as much as the runners and inside rugs do, even when we put a non slide pad under them.

ooh - do you have a link to the kind of rugs? We have that issue here, too. 

19 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

@Ktgrok can no doubt answer that better than I can. It's been a very long time since I used it, but my very layman's understanding then was that it works as an anti-inflammatory and also increases synovial fluid (the fluid that surrounds and cushions joints).

yes, it works in a similar manner to the Cosequin/Dasaquin. 

[itsheresomewhere]

59 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

We had x rays taken about 9 years ago when we suspected there would be problems. Her hip socket is round, but at the time, the ball of her thigh was squared rather than round. We probably won't do further x rays simply because we're seeing a decline in her thinking, hearing, and vision as well as her hips. She is essentially a young senior dog.

If it were my pet, I would do the xrays again.  Back and hip problems can be hard to tell which is which as they get older.  Plus, usually xrays  are one of the cheapest things to do. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by itsheresomewhere

[Tree Frog]

19 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

If it were my pet, I would do the xrays again.  Back and hip problems can be hard to tell which is which as they get older.  Plus, usually xrays  are one of the cheapest things to do. 

Good to know. Something to add when talking with the very tomorrow. Thank you.

[Tree Frog]

25 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

ooh - do you have a link to the kind of rugs? We have that issue here, too.

They're the outdoor rugs from Costco. They run about $15 and are I think 4X6. I can look up a link if that would be helpful, but I buy them in the store.

[Tree Frog]

1 minute ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I know she has more health problems than this, but I have heard people say that the grip-style  booties for dogs can help with slipping on wood and tile floors.

My dd suggested those this morning. We tried some when she wouldn't go off the patio when the grass was wet, so I'm not sure they would work. They would, however, be less expensive than 15 additional rugs, so I may revisit them. I can Google them, but if you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.

[Selkie]

All our floors are hardwood or tile, and one thing we did for our dog was put down these non-slip stair treads. We not only put them on the stairs, but also on corners that he had trouble negotiating and on the floor in front of his favorite chair so he didn't slip when he jumped on or off.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B083TJJ753/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

All our floors are hardwood or tile, and one thing we did for our dog was put down these non-slip stair treads. We not only put them on the stairs, but also on corners that he had trouble negotiating and on the floor in front of his favorite chair so he didn't slip when he jumped on or off.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B083TJJ753/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's a good idea. Thank you. 

[Spy Car]

5 hours ago, wilrunner said:

 

I'm quoting these together because you both mention meds. She's currently on the highest dose of daily Carprofin she can be. The vet has said we'll add Gabapentin next. We have some left over from when we tried the gabapentin before the carprofen, but it didn't help her pain. I'm hoping the combination of the two will help.

I believe the Dasaquin is similar to the Cosequin we're currently using. I'll talk to the vet tomorrow to see about adding Adequan. I'm surprised she didn't mention it when we talked about her hips at an appt about a month ago.

She has a couple of orthopedic beds, one in her kennel and one out. She prefers sleeping in her kennel, but we won't be closing her in it anymore. She is also

I'll look at changing her dog food to the joint care.

That's an interesting thought about it possibly being her back instead of hips. We assumed it was her hips due to an x ray we had done many years ago that showed hip joint issues. My dd wants to order a food/water bowl combo that sits higher to see if that will help, but is having a difficult time finding one in stock. If it's a back issue, that may help. Does anyone have suggestions on where to find one? It needs to be a rubber base because Kya will push it in her eagerness to eat. 

Thank you all for your suggestions! We have a way to move forward now.

 

Have you looked at trimming her nails? A dog's nails should be kept very short. Much shorter than people realize. Long nails throw off a dog's muscular-skeletal alignment and that can cause or exacerbate hip issues. Plus long nails make it more likely a dog will slip.

Reducing long nails to an optimal length is a process, as one needs to encourage the quick to retract by frequently trimming as close as one can.

Do you own a dremel?

As to the issue of diet, I hate to open a contentious subject, but I'd like to see Hill's evidence for feeding one of the most substandard and obesity-encouraging 17% (very low) protein, 11% (very low) fat, very high carbohydrate formulas as something to "improve" the condition of a senior dog with joint issues.

This diet is 180 degrees out of the proper direction. Instead one should feed a high-protein/high-fat/low-carb diet. The precise opposite of Hill's approach.

Bill

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, wilrunner said:

They're the outdoor rugs from Costco. They run about $15 and are I think 4X6. I can look up a link if that would be helpful, but I buy them in the store.

Oh, I'll check for them, we have a Costco membership. 

25 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Have you looked at trimming her nails? A dog's nails should be kept very short. Much shorter than people realize. Long nails throw off a dog's muscular-skeletal alignment and that can cause or exacerbate hip issues. Plus long nails make it more likely a dog will slip.

Reducing long nails to an optimal length is a process, as one needs to encourage the quick to retract by frequently trimming as close as one can.

Do you own a dremel?

As to the issue of diet, I hate to open a contentious subject, but I'd like to see Hill's evidence for feeding one of the most substandard and obesity-encouraging 17% (very low) protein, 11% (very low) fat, very high carbohydrate formulas as something to "improve" the condition of a senior dog with joint issues.

This diet is 180 degrees out of the proper direction. Instead one should feed a high-protein/high-fat/low-carb diet. The precise opposite of Hill's approach.

Bill

 

 

 

My dog that slides has furry paws, and although with two people you can do his nails, keeping the fur short enough to not slide is nearly impossible, as he hates it. Could be that. 

And they do have force plate evidence of dogs showing significant joint improvement on that diet. And some older dogs do not tolerate high fat diets - mine doesn't. At all. Now, he has a history of pancreatitis, but he's not the only one like that. I'd be hesitant to make sweeping diet recommendations to a senior dog with health problems without knowing the dog's history. That said, we get extra protein into old guy to support muscle mass, but have to be careful how much fat goes with it, and how we do it. 

Also, muscle loss is often due to less movement due to pain, so getting his pain under better control might help that on its own. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ktgrok

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

All our floors are hardwood or tile, and one thing we did for our dog was put down these non-slip stair treads. We not only put them on the stairs, but also on corners that he had trouble negotiating and on the floor in front of his favorite chair so he didn't slip when he jumped on or off.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B083TJJ753/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

OOOH! Neat idea! 

Do they collect dirt or anything weird?

[Spy Car]

15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh, I'll check for them, we have a Costco membership. 

My dog that slides has furry paws, and although with two people you can do his nails, keeping the fur short enough to not slide is nearly impossible, as he hates it. Could be that. 

And they do have force plate evidence of dogs showing significant joint improvement on that diet. And some older dogs do not tolerate high fat diets - mine doesn't. At all. Now, he has a history of pancreatitis, but he's not the only one like that. I'd be hesitant to make sweeping diet recommendations to a senior dog with health problems without knowing the dog's history. That said, we get extra protein into old guy to support muscle mass, but have to be careful how much fat goes with it, and how we do it. 

Also, muscle loss is often due to less movement due to pain, so getting his pain under better control might help that on its own. 

Fur between the pads can be (should be) trimmed, along with the nails.

Outside of specific medical condition like pancreatitis, feeding a high carb diet should be contraindicated for all dogs, especially senior dogs with joint issues.

Feeding 17% protein is a guarantee that a dog will tear muscle fibers and will not have sufficient protein to adequately repair such muscle injuries. It is a dreadful diet.

Bill

 

 

 

[Selkie]

36 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

As to the issue of diet, I hate to open a contentious subject, but I'd like to see Hill's evidence for feeding one of the most substandard and obesity-encouraging 17% (very low) protein, 11% (very low) fat, very high carbohydrate formulas as something to "improve" the condition of a senior dog with joint issues.

This diet is 180 degrees out of the proper direction. Instead one should feed a high-protein/high-fat/low-carb diet. The precise opposite of Hill's approach.

Bill

 

The continual debate over diet on this board isn't one that interests me (I skip by those posts), but since I was quoted, I will offer that my experience with Hill's J/D has been nothing but positive. My shepherd mix was suffering badly from hip dysplasia, to the point that we were considering hip replacement surgery. Since adding J/D to our treatment regimen a few years ago, he has improved enormously. He moves freely and easily without pain, and is a much happier boy. He is not obese at all - he is quite lean.

[Selkie]

25 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

OOOH! Neat idea! 

Do they collect dirt or anything weird?

No, not really. I vacuum and mop them when I'm doing the floors and they stay pretty clean.

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, Selkie said:

The continual debate over diet on this board isn't one that interests me (I skip by those posts), but since I was quoted, I will offer that my experience with Hill's J/D has been nothing but positive. My shepherd mix was suffering badly from hip dysplasia, to the point that we were considering hip replacement surgery. Since adding J/D to our treatment regimen a few years ago, he has improved enormously. He moves freely and easily without pain, and is a much happier boy. He is not obese at all - he is quite lean.

I think the key words here are "treatment regimen" which include:

Adequan injections

Carprovet

Gabapentin

Dasuquin chews

Veterinary Naturals Hemp & Hips chews

Big Barker orthopedic dog beds

****

But feeding a 17% protein dog food? Studies have shown feeding under 28% protein is a sure fire way to damage a dog's muscles by promoting muscle tears and undermining muscle repair. Not advisable.

Bill

 

[Selkie]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I think the key words here are "treatment regimen" which include:

Adequan injections

Carprovet

Gabapentin

Dasuquin chews

Veterinary Naturals Hemp & Hips chews

Big Barker orthopedic dog beds

****

But feeding a 17% protein dog food? Studies have shown feeding under 28% protein is a sure fire way to damage a dog's muscles by promoting muscle tears and undermining muscle repair. Not advisable.

Bill

 

I have not found what you are saying to be true. I have 11 dogs now and have had upwards of 40 rescue dogs over the past 30 years. I do not feed foods with as high of a protein level as you are advising, and we have had no problems with muscle tears at all.

Again, I am not interested in the debate, so I will bow out now. I stand by my recommendation of J/D as something that has been beneficial to my dog.

[Spy Car]

31 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I have not found what you are saying to be true. I have 11 dogs now and have had upwards of 40 rescue dogs over the past 30 years. I do not feed foods with as high of a protein level as you are advising, and we have had no problems with muscle tears at all.

Again, I am not interested in the debate, so I will bow out now. I stand by my recommendation of J/D as something that has been beneficial to my dog.

It is well established in the veterinary medical literature that low protein diets (and 17% is an extreme version of such) contribute to muscle tearing (that's not obvious to owners in most case, BTW) and in a greatly reduced ability to repair from micro-tears. 

Protecting both muscle and joint health is critical. The two are interactive.

Bill

 

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Spy Car

[Pawz4me]

I have a vet acquaintance who feeds her own dogs raw. She also has very high praise for j/d, and she's willing to admit that when it first came out she was very skeptical and was totally wrong. She says her clients routinely get very good results using it as part of their treatment plan.

And I'm not debating it, either. BTDT, it's too tedious. I'm sure the OP can make up her mind from what's been stated.

[Tree Frog]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Have you looked at trimming her nails? A dog's nails should be kept very short. Much shorter than people realize. Long nails throw off a dog's muscular-skeletal alignment and that can cause or exacerbate hip issues. Plus long nails make it more likely a dog will slip.

Reducing long nails to an optimal length is a process, as one needs to encourage the quick to retract by frequently trimming as close as one can.

Do you own a dremel?

I don't own a dremel. Keeping her nails short has been a problem. She gets anxious going to the vet and, especially because I can't go in with her right now due to covid, the tech hasn't been able to trim them well. While I can trim them with help (she fights me), I'm not entirely comfortable with it. However, you make a good point, one I hadn't considered. I just need to get it done. 

 

[Tree Frog]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

 

Since this is an unexpected double post...

My dd read the thread and told me I have several typos. I'm responding on my phone and don't always double check what I've written. Thanks for overlooking them!

Edited August 11, 2020 by wilrunner
Double post

[Spy Car]

10 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

I don't own a dremel. Keeping her nails short has been a problem. She gets anxious going to the vet and, especially because I can't go in with her right now due to covid, the tech hasn't been able to trim them well. While I can trim them with help (she fights me), I'm not entirely comfortable with it. However, you make a good point, one I hadn't considered. I just need to get it done. 

 

I mention it because it is so critical for dogs to keep their nails short. Most especially a dog with hip issues.

Our dear neighbors are the sweetest people ever and ones deeply devoted to their dogs. They had a old one suffering hip pain badly. They were spending great sums of money on veterinary care. They were very stressed and their beloved dog was in pain. So I asked the same question, what do her nails look like?

There were extreme. Literally curled under. I would not believe a vet's office would let that situation percist.

In any case, I made in my mission to take my dremel and visit the neighbors and slowly restore the nails to a reasonable length. Trimming her nails did not solve all her hip issues, but her owners could see how much more freely she was able to move. She passed within a year of old age. But it made a significant difference.

IMO a dremel is the best tool for the job. In part because it is not scary for an owner to use. There are many fine videos on how to "condition" a dog to accepting nail grinding.

Bill

 

[Pen]

Agree with much of what’s above including nails . 

Slippery floors also can be helped for some dogs who will tolerate it to have rubber non slip dog boots on.  (Our current dog freezes and won’t move in boots, or tries to do a hand stand, but some don’t mind. ) 

A towel can help with lifting while waiting for a sling. 

There are dog wheel  device things too sometimes available second hand, but it might be hard to get her adjusted to that. 

If she wants to play she probably is still enjoying life and I would let her because lack of exercise would be likely to make things worse

 

if she will swim, a deep kiddie pool could be a help 

 

some of the same vitamins that tend to be deficient in humans also are often low in modern life style dogs  - Vitamin D, magnesium etc can affect joints as well as MSM, glucosamine, Chondroitin, omega fatty acids... 

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Selkie said:

The continual debate over diet on this board isn't one that interests me (I skip by those posts), but since I was quoted, I will offer that my experience with Hill's J/D has been nothing but positive. My shepherd mix was suffering badly from hip dysplasia, to the point that we were considering hip replacement surgery. Since adding J/D to our treatment regimen a few years ago, he has improved enormously. He moves freely and easily without pain, and is a much happier boy. He is not obese at all - he is quite lean.

Yes, having actually SEEN how dogs do on the diet, in real life, I have seen only good things. That said, it is very expensive. But works. 

4 hours ago, Selkie said:

No, not really. I vacuum and mop them when I'm doing the floors and they stay pretty clean.

Awesome! I'm going to order some! 

As for fur on the pads, yes, I know it should be trimmed, but as I said, it is pretty impossible to keep up on with this particular dog, but perhaps the OP will be able to address it if it is a problem. In my case I have a dog with a TBI that left him permanently brain injured, neck and back trauma, and manipulating him is very difficult for him, and training is also very difficult because he is..well, dumb as a bag of rocks due to the brain damage. Sweet as pie, but not able to put cause and effect together well, so counter conditioning has not worked out. Distraction sometimes does. But not enough to keep his feet permanently fur free - too much fur that grows too quickly and he hates the clippers. 

Speaking of which - use caution with a dremel on a dog with furry feet! The hair can get caught in the dremel and that HURTS!

 

[Tree Frog]

16 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Speaking of which - use caution with a dremel on a dog with furry feet! The hair can get caught in the dremel and that HURTS!

That sounds quite painful! I had something similar happen in elementary school when I rode on my stomach on a scooter in PE and my long hair caught in the wheels. 

Thankfully our dog doesn't have furry feet, so it's not an issue. I do need to keep up with the nail trims, though. How does one work the quick back so the nails can be very short?

 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

That sounds quite painful! I had something similar happen in elementary school when I rode on my stomach on a scooter in PE and my long hair caught in the wheels. 

Thankfully our dog doesn't have furry feet, so it's not an issue. I do need to keep up with the nail trims, though. How does one work the quick back so the nails can be very short?

 

A little at a time. Frequent trims, just a little at a time, will have the quick receding. It is sensitive to pressure, so if you trim the nail the quick will recede back. Every two weeks is what we reccomended. And walking on rough surfaces helps. (but I wouldn't walk a dog with joint issues on sidewalks/concrete - too hard on the joints. Asphalt, if not hot, would be okay)

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, having actually SEEN how dogs do on the diet, in real life, I have seen only good things. That said, it is very expensive. But works. 

Awesome! I'm going to order some! 

As for fur on the pads, yes, I know it should be trimmed, but as I said, it is pretty impossible to keep up on with this particular dog, but perhaps the OP will be able to address it if it is a problem. In my case I have a dog with a TBI that left him permanently brain injured, neck and back trauma, and manipulating him is very difficult for him, and training is also very difficult because he is..well, dumb as a bag of rocks due to the brain damage. Sweet as pie, but not able to put cause and effect together well, so counter conditioning has not worked out. Distraction sometimes does. But not enough to keep his feet permanently fur free - too much fur that grows too quickly and he hates the clippers. 

Speaking of which - use caution with a dremel on a dog with furry feet! The hair can get caught in the dremel and that HURTS!

 

I'd recommend medium-short length (thin) scissors with rounded safety point. Short and thin enough that you can work the between the toe pads and remove the fur in more or less one snip. And maybe break the job into a couple here and a couple there.

Bill

[Spy Car]

59 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

That sounds quite painful! I had something similar happen in elementary school when I rode on my stomach on a scooter in PE and my long hair caught in the wheels. 

Thankfully our dog doesn't have furry feet, so it's not an issue. I do need to keep up with the nail trims, though. How does one work the quick back so the nails can be very short?

 

Depends how long they are. It could take many months. If your dog has clear nails you can see the quick. To promote recession you don't just grid on the very ends, but also remove some of the top layer of nail towards the ends so the quick has less nail surrounding it. This helps push recession.

One tip if you do use a dremel is don't work one spot or one nail for too long. You don't want to create pain from friction. It is a process. A mask helps.

If they are bad. I'd do weekly trimmings for a while, if you can manage it at home. 

Bill

[Tree Frog]

42 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

If your dog has clear nails you can see the quick.

THis is part of my hesitation. Some of her nails are black and it's difficult to see the quick. I have used styptic powder when I've gone into her quick, but that reinforces her negative feeling about nail trims. Doing them more frequently will allow me to take less off each time so I won't feel like I have to keep clipping it down.

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

A little at a time. Frequent trims, just a little at a time, will have the quick receding. It is sensitive to pressure, so if you trim the nail the quick will recede back. Every two weeks is what we reccomended. And walking on rough surfaces helps. (but I wouldn't walk a dog with joint issues on sidewalks/concrete - too hard on the joints. Asphalt, if not hot, would be okay)

I didn't know that about quicks. It will be easier to just take a bit off at a time rather than try to take as much as possible each time.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

I'd recommend medium-short length (thin) scissors with rounded safety point. Short and thin enough that you can work the between the toe pads and remove the fur in more or less one snip. And maybe break the job into a couple here and a couple there.

Bill

I know that the OP said that this wasn’t an issue for her dog but this is how I did it for my Springers. Libby (the Disabled Wonder Dog) especially needed it done in order to get traction on her three working paws. But Rocky was the hardest because he had paws the size of saucers and he did not sit still. I swore a lot when doing his paws...

[Spy Car]

31 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

THis is part of my hesitation. Some of her nails are black and it's difficult to see the quick. I have used styptic powder when I've gone into her quick, but that reinforces her negative feeling about nail trims. Doing them more frequently will allow me to take less off each time so I won't feel like I have to keep clipping it down.

This is why a dremel is so helpful. It removes the rightful anxiety people have about cutting quicks with a clipper.

It is almost impossible to "cut" a quick with a dremel. It is too gradual. A dog will squirm if it begins to feel discomfort. Only a few times in decades have I dawn a tiny spot of blood on the very tips. Never trauma.

Doing less--but frequently--if your best path. Accept it will be a process. Before using, turn the thing on a few times, give dog praise and treats. Dremel sound good.

Don't use on nails until dog is "conditioned"

Bill

. 

 

[Spy Car]

20 minutes ago, kand said:

My dog has black nails and I do just a little at a time 1-2 times a week. I’m lucky that she’s super chill about it, though. Somewhere is a great video showing the angle you want to take, and why. It’s usually not parallel to the tip. I will look for it. 
 

Here’s a link that explains the cutting angle and has a link to a really good video explanation of it. Most diagrams of how to cut nails will actually show this as being the wrong angle, but if you watch her video, it makes good sense, and it’s how I’ve been doing it for a long time: https://susangarrettdogagility.com/2013/08/cutting-your-dogs-nails-how-important-is-it-really/

Excellent link!

Susan Garrett show precisely how to optimally cut nails, explains why, and makes the correct angle clear. Must watch video.

Bill

 

[Pawz4me]

This is easier done with young/middle aged dogs, but FWIW --

I teach all dogs here, my own and fosters, to lay on their side or back while I work on nails. It works for me because I'm more comfy sitting on the floor when working on nails than bending over/squatting beside a dog. It's great for elderly/arthritic/injured dogs because they don't have to stand on three legs while you trim. It's part of basic training boot camp here. 😉 For smaller dogs I will sometimes put them on the bed, with an old towel under them, which is a pretty good height for me for working. (I have a grooming table, and that of course works well because it elevates the dog and is non slip, and is what I train my own dogs on, but of course most people don't own those, so with fosters it's more useful to their future people if I train the dog to lie down on the floor or a bed.) My first large dog was very hairy and around 90 pounds, and as she aged she had lots of joint issues. That's when I realized that having her lie down was the easiest position for dealing with nails on an older dog. And so for about 35 years now that's what I've done with all dogs.

Also, when using a Dremel on dogs with furry feet you can either wet the paw hair with a spray bottle (damp hair is easier to hold out of the way) or keep a supply of cheap knee-hi hose around. If the nails are overgrown then it's relatively easy to poke them through the hose, which will contain the hair.

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I'd recommend medium-short length (thin) scissors with rounded safety point. Short and thin enough that you can work the between the toe pads and remove the fur in more or less one snip. And maybe break the job into a couple here and a couple there.

Bill

Yeah, that's what we do but it just is very diffcult to do safely with a wiggly dog with fur growing from every angle, lol. I can do the other dog's feet no problem, the other two dogs nails are not an issue either. This one..sigh. He gets a ton of snacks while we do it, to distract him, and it takes multiple people. And the fur grows so fast there is always some. Nails are faster/easier both because I have so much more experience and because it is just safer/easier to be quick about it than to try to get in between the toes.

But those stair treads may help. 

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I know that the OP said that this wasn’t an issue for her dog but this is how I did it for my Springers. Libby (the Disabled Wonder Dog) especially needed it done in order to get traction on her three working paws. But Rocky was the hardest because he had paws the size of saucers and he did not sit still. I swore a lot when doing his paws...

Yeah...with a wiggly dog it's just difficult to do quickly without injury. 

[livetoread]

When our dog got old and struggled on our slippery laminate, we went to Home Depot and got the cheapest carpet runner that they sold by the yard on those big rolls. We made pathways, and she quickly learned to navigate on them for the most part. Even better, when the clerk cutting the carpet for us learned what we were getting it for, she knocked the yardage listed down by about a third, so we paid even less. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by livetoread

[Tree Frog]

25 minutes ago, livetoread said:

When our dog got old and struggled on our slippery laminate, we went to Home Depot and got the cheapest carpet runner that they sold by the yard on those big rolls. We made pathways, and she quickly learned to navigate on them for the most part. Even better, when the clerk cutting the carpet for us learned what we were getting it for, she knocked the yardage listed down by about a third, so we paid even less. 

This is really what I'd like to do, but even with non skid padding underneath, I'm concerned the rug would slide. We'll likely be making some sort of decision on rugs by this weekend. 

 

11 hours ago, kand said:

Here’s a link that explains the cutting angle and has a link to a really good video explanation of it. Most diagrams of how to cut nails will actually show this as being the wrong angle, but if you watch her video, it makes good sense, and it’s how I’ve been doing it for a long time: https://susangarrettdogagility.com/2013/08/cutting-your-dogs-nails-how-important-is-it-really/

Someone upthread (maybe you?) mentioned trimming the nails this way. I'll be getting small dog treats today and starting to train her daily before dd heads to college. Hopefully we can make enough headway that I will be able to work with her by myself.

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, wilrunner said:

This is really what I'd like to do, but even with non skid padding underneath, I'm concerned the rug would slide. We'll likely be making some sort of decision on rugs by this weekend. 

 

Someone upthread (maybe you?) mentioned trimming the nails this way. I'll be getting small dog treats today and starting to train her daily before dd heads to college. Hopefully we can make enough headway that I will be able to work with her by myself.

 

Here is a variation in the nail trimming that I'd advocate if you get a dremel (which I highly advise doing). BTW there are two useful dremel heads. One is stone colored and is shaped like an elongated pyramid (especially useful for finishing nicely). The other is a circular band of black sandpaper that fits over a black rubber head (buy a replacement pack of the sandpaper). The circular one is good for the main trimming, but used alone tends towards blunter looking nails--if you care about such issues.

 

Apologies to the original "artist" whose work I've freely borrowed for my example of "best."

 

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah, that's what we do but it just is very diffcult to do safely with a wiggly dog with fur growing from every angle, lol. I can do the other dog's feet no problem, the other two dogs nails are not an issue either. This one..sigh. He gets a ton of snacks while we do it, to distract him, and it takes multiple people. And the fur grows so fast there is always some. Nails are faster/easier both because I have so much more experience and because it is just safer/easier to be quick about it than to try to get in between the toes.

 

Hey boy, how does your owner have it?

Ruff!

Good dog!

Bill

 

[Tree Frog]

I spoke with our vet today. These are the options she gave:

-Adequan injections- start at twice/week for up to 4 weeks, then taper down.

-Gabapentin- will likely make our dog calmer/more sleepy, but should help with pain.

-Purina Joint food (I think Purina J/M)- this is the one the office sells. Thoughts vs. Hill's? This one is less expensive than Hills.

-X Rays won't change the therapy. She definitely has arthritis in her knees and vet suspects also in hips due to hip dysplasia, so the vet doesn't believe the x rays will be informative. She will do them if I want.

-Laser treatment-Start with a "low pack", so 2 or so treatments per week.

She's completely leaving it up to us. I don't know anything about the laser treatment except what Google tells me.

I'm leaning towards Gabapentin, changing her food, trimming her nails (Thank You for giving me suggestions!), and Adequan injections (assuming they're affordable. I'm waiting for the prices.)

Do you have any thoughts about any of these? Some better than others? We likely can't afford to do all of them.

Thank you so much for your insight and suggestions. I had no idea there were such simple things we could change that could help her. We now have additional rugs on all the areas she walks.

[Tree Frog]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

 

Here is a variation in the nail trimming that I'd advocate if you get a dremel (which I highly advise doing). BTW there are two useful dremel heads. One is stone colored and is shaped like an elongated pyramid (especially useful for finishing nicely). The other is a circular band of black sandpaper that fits over a black rubber head (buy a replacement pack of the sandpaper). The circular one is good for the main trimming, but used alone tends towards blunter looking nails--if you care about such issues.

 

Apologies to the original "artist" whose work I've freely borrowed for my example of "best."

 

Bill

 

All of the information you've shared has been good and I appreciate it. I'm going to start with the clippers since I already have a pair and work on training her (and, honestly, training me, too.)

[Tree Frog]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

 

Here is a variation in the nail trimming that I'd advocate if you get a dremel (which I highly advise doing). BTW there are two useful dremel heads. One is stone colored and is shaped like an elongated pyramid (especially useful for finishing nicely). The other is a circular band of black sandpaper that fits over a black rubber head (buy a replacement pack of the sandpaper). The circular one is good for the main trimming, but used alone tends towards blunter looking nails--if you care about such issues.

 

Apologies to the original "artist" whose work I've freely borrowed for my example of "best."

 

Bill

 

Do you have a dremel you'd recommend?