Teen driving monitor

[linders]

I need a recommendation for a teen driving monitor.

I never wanted to get to this point. Never had to with DS19 - from my own observations and all second hand accounts, he was a reasonably safe driver. And then there is DS16. He is our adventure boy, no cliff too high, no challenge too great. I have had a couple of random observations when I happened to follow him - a bit fast, incomplete stops. I heard rumors from friends of friends, but no one would say anything directly. He himself claims to drive safely, yet often says some of the speed limits are "stupid." We have talked often about safe driving and driving as a privilege.

But we were just contacted by the Athletic Director regarding his speed "tearing out of" the student parking lot today, something affirmed by the students - "dirt and rocks were flying." A woman nearby walking two elementary school kids yelled at him. 

Needless to say, driving privileges are revoked for the near future. But looking down the road, I'm afraid we will have to reintroduce driving with monitoring. He has lost our trust, and he is very good at agreeing to limits ahead of time, then going beyond in the moment. He will object to a monitor, but it will be a condition of driving again. I want him to be able to drive and develop a stronger sense of appropriate driving before he heads to college.

Experience?

[Scarlett]

We used Life 360.  The pay version has a speed monitor/reporting as well as braking too hard, etc.  

[May]

Driving is a privilege, not a right. If he wants to drive again, he pays for the car and the insurance. 

[Pen]

5 hours ago, linders said:

I need a recommendation for a teen driving monitor.

I never wanted to get to this point. Never had to with DS19 - from my own observations and all second hand accounts, he was a reasonably safe driver. And then there is DS16. He is our adventure boy, no cliff too high, no challenge too great. I have had a couple of random observations when I happened to follow him - a bit fast, incomplete stops. I heard rumors from friends of friends, but no one would say anything directly. He himself claims to drive safely, yet often says some of the speed limits are "stupid." We have talked often about safe driving and driving as a privilege.

But we were just contacted by the Athletic Director regarding his speed "tearing out of" the student parking lot today, something affirmed by the students - "dirt and rocks were flying." A woman nearby walking two elementary school kids yelled at him. 

Needless to say, driving privileges are revoked for the near future. But looking down the road, I'm afraid we will have to reintroduce driving with monitoring. He has lost our trust, and he is very good at agreeing to limits ahead of time, then going beyond in the moment. He will object to a monitor, but it will be a condition of driving again. I want him to be able to drive and develop a stronger sense of appropriate driving before he heads to college.

Experience?

 

I would withdraw driving privileges for more than the “near” future.  A “bit fast” is one thing.  But rocks flying can blind someone plus he seems to have bad attitude about it and indifference to the safety of others in addition to putting himself at risk.  Also legally possibly putting you at risk since you have been notified by several people that he is an unsafe driver.  

I’d probably withdraw driving till age 18 unless the boy found a way to earn back your trust—with the burden on him to figure out how. 

 

Afaik, monitors available in USA (unlike UK) can be turned off (eta or hacked in various ways that parents may not be able to figure out) by teens who don’t want to comply.  

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pen

[linders]

2 hours ago, May said:

Driving is a privilege, not a right. If he wants to drive again, he pays for the car and the insurance. 

Not his car, an old family car, already pays for insurance.

And that doesn't really solve the issue - just because a kid pays for everything doesn't mean he will drive safely. I need to enforce driving safely. With the knowledge that his speed, acceleration are being monitored (we fully intend to inform him) and that further use is on the line, he will be closer to that. Kind of like all those people on the highway who drop from 85 mph to 75 mph when they see the highway patrol nearby 🙂

[Scarlett]

51 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I would withdraw driving privileges for more than the “near” future.  A “bit fast” is one thing.  But rocks flying can blind someone plus he seems to have bad attitude about it and indifference to the safety of others in addition to putting himself at risk.  Also legally possibly putting you at risk since you have been notified by several people that he is an unsafe driver.  

I’d probably withdraw driving till age 18 unless the boy found a way to earn back your trust—with the burden on him to figure out how. 

 

Afaik, monitors available in USA (unlike UK) can be turned off by teens who don’t want to comply.  

Turning it off would result in immediate Suspension of driving privileges 

[sassenach]

I’ll ask my dh what we have on our kids’ cars. We have always, from day 1, had monitors installed and I think it’s an excellent deterrent to foolishness. Ours sends an alert if it’s unplugged, so that’s never even a thought. 

I think you’re handling it fine. 

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Turning it off would result in immediate Suspension of driving privileges 

 

Hacking these so parents don’t know is a thing teens can be better at than parents, I have been told .   Possible relevant link below ... or not. 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en-us&ei=35kzXt23A8T99APG5rfABA&q=life360+hacks&oq=life+360+&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.1.0.0i10l2j0j0i10l4j0.13686.17552..20365...0.1..0.111.298.1j2......0....1.........0i71j41j0i67.LUCzqofl5Xk

 

Not necessarily a simple turning off but making it look like they are stationary in one spot while they are practicing donuts and drift driving or making the rocks and gravel fly elsewhere. 

My guess would be your (Op’s) 16yo as described might have the personality to test hacking limits as much as to challenge cliffs and speed limits.  

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

https://www.businessinsider.com/life360-location-tracker-teens-tiktok-memes-tips-2019-11

Apparently 70% of teens report being comfortable with being monitored.  @linders — idk, do you think your ds would be part of that 70% or in the group described below? (big bold due to cut and paste- sorry!)

 

“Still, most teens on TikTok are more focused on outsmarting Life360. Many TikTok users are sharing the enterprising ways they're skirting the location-tracking.”

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pen

[BlsdMama]

12 hours ago, linders said:

Not his car, an old family car, already pays for insurance.

And that doesn't really solve the issue - just because a kid pays for everything doesn't mean he will drive safely. I need to enforce driving safely. With the knowledge that his speed, acceleration are being monitored (we fully intend to inform him) and that further use is on the line, he will be closer to that. Kind of like all those people on the highway who drop from 85 mph to 75 mph when they see the highway patrol nearby 🙂

 
Let's be honest  - you would not be better served with him having his own car.  You're right when you say your job is to equip him with knowledge and understanding, not just punish and just prevent.  We use Life 360 at our house too -but it's the free app.  It only tracks the route and the speed.  You'll need more than that - AWESOME if the paid app does that.  Does he also have a "don't touch while driving app" for his phone?  Some kids have super high impulsivity.  Catch is that it doesn't really kick in for boys until age 23-25, I read that sometime?  So the more influence you have (or purchase in) the better off everyone is.  

Here's the real deal  - some kids who are GREAT kids have done stupid things and have spent a lifetime paying for their stupid actions.  We had a tragedy here a few years ago where five teens were killed in a truck vs. semi collision.  Was the kid at fault? Yup.   Was he probably careless that day? Yeah, maybe, but what 17yo kid isn't at some point? And who wants that to happen EVER to anybody's kid?  No one.  So the best thing you do isn't punish or deny - it's the teach.  Now, I agree he needs punishment and I'd make it painful like being unavailable to drive him places he REALLY wants/needs to go for a while.  But, until he's 18 and then what? Turn him loose?  Nope.  Your plan is a good one - teach, train, equip, accountable.  The longer the better.

[Pen]

13 hours ago, linders said:

Not his car, an old family car, already pays for insurance.

And that doesn't really solve the issue - just because a kid pays for everything doesn't mean he will drive safely. I need to enforce driving safely. With the knowledge that his speed, acceleration are being monitored (we fully intend to inform him) and that further use is on the line, he will be closer to that. Kind of like all those people on the highway who drop from 85 mph to 75 mph when they see the highway patrol nearby 🙂

 

I think I might start with saying what happened and that he needs to tell you how he will solve the problem to your satisfaction.  That there’s not only a safe driving issue, but also a trust issue.  

My soon to be 18yo is still driving with me as passenger.  He has his license but hasn’t solo driven yet except on our own near block area. This in our case has more to do with my not wanting to be stranded without vehicle since we only have one vehicle functional right now than not trusting him.

Nonetheless, it is perfectly possible to return to kid drives only with an approved adult directly supervising for awhile.  Even if kid has DL.  

In our state if a minor is not driving safely parent can have kid’s DL revoked.  A major stick available to require proper safe driving.  

[linders]

16 hours ago, Pen said:

I would withdraw driving privileges for more than the “near” future.

Well, a month is a lifetime to a 16 year old. Plus no friends as passengers until he is 17. (You might think that would be hard to monitor - not in our small town where I talk to the moms of his friends all the time, and they have already heard about this rule.) And saying "no driving until he is 18" (when he heads to college) doesn't really provide the structured teaching environment I'm looking for - kind of like having those bumpers up when you learn to bowl.

He might not like the monitoring, but the alternative - no driving - will be incentive. 

15 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Turning it off would result in immediate Suspension of driving privileges 

Yup. And we are looking at Life360, but also the more expensive options. The cost is small for the benefit for us.

3 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

You're right when you say your job is to equip him with knowledge and understanding, not just punish and just prevent.  We use Life 360 at our house too -but it's the free app.  It only tracks the route and the speed...Does he also have a "don't touch while driving app" for his phone? 

Here's the real deal  - some kids who are GREAT kids have done stupid things and have spent a lifetime paying for their stupid actions.  

Already has an app for "no touch while driving." Honestly, even when he isn't in a car, I think he uses Siri voice control more than actually holding the phone.

S16 and I had an interesting discussion this morning. DH offered to have him take the course at the BMW Performance Driving School in our state ("learn to drive on the edge of physics"). S16 is not at all interested. In his words, he doesn't want to do weird stuff with a car, he just wants to get from point A to point B as efficiently as possible. Hence some speed issues. So some time off for bad behavior, then monitoring to ensure greater attention to speed limits.

Also, I saw the AD at the game last night and he clarified. He figured S was going perhaps 15-20 mph, and not anywhere near where people were, but at the far side of student parking near the exit. The posted speed limit in the student lot is 5 mph. Not quite what I pictured when he said "tore out of there."

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, linders said:

So some time off for bad behavior, then monitoring to ensure greater attention to speed limits.

 

Also, I saw the AD at the game last night and he clarified. He figured S was going perhaps 15-20 mph, and not anywhere near where people were, but at the far side of student parking near the exit. The posted speed limit in the student lot is 5 mph. Not quite what I pictured when he said "tore out of there."

 

Sounds less bad than what I was picturing. 

[Pen]

I want to clarify that I am not necessarily thinking he should not drive till 18, but that the burden should shift to him to show you he can be safe, legal, responsible, rather than burden on you to figure out how to put up rails along the bowling lane

It isn’t really analogous to rails on bowling lane

though new description of what he did sounds much milder than what I was picturing nonetheless a better analogy in bowling imo would be if he weren’t following basic safety rules for himself and others —  

something more like swinging the bowling ball around without paying close attention to his own behavior, or tossing it in the air,

new information would be like analogy of child didn’t throw bowling ball near others, and not very high, ... but still it suggests the child isn’t yet at a maturity level to be handling bowling, even if it’s only his own toes likely to be crushed by the  ball

or that it’s only a matter of some speeding to get where he’s going point A to B faster: maybe that’s like a little kid walking down the bowling lane toward the pins and resetting machine to get a closer shot at the pins... putting his convenience above safety

it is a safety issue 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

40 minutes ago, kathyintx said:

He sounds like he needs to mature more before he's allowed to drive alone.  For the above behaviors and attitudes, I'd be making him drive with a parent in the car for a year or two - never alone.

 

2 hours ago, linders said:

Well, a month is a lifetime to a 16 year old. Plus no friends as passengers until he is 17. (You might think that would be hard to monitor - not in our small town where I talk to the moms of his friends all the time, and they have already heard about this rule.) And saying "no driving until he is 18" (when he heads to college) doesn't really provide the structured teaching environment I'm looking for - kind of like having those bumpers up when you learn to bowl.

 

 

https://www.thecarcrashdetective.com/when-should-teenager-get-drivers-license-not-before-18/

 

But doesn’t this just mean that 18 year olds have 2 years more driving experience than 16 year olds? What about new 18 year olds vs new 16 year olds?

It’s tempting to think that the only reason the driver death rates drop so dramatically between 16 and 18 is because all of the 18 year olds have the benefit of the 2 years of driving and hopefully not dying between 16 and 18. However, numerous studies have found this to be erroneous, whether in the US, Canada, or overseas.

A Canadian study found in 1992 that novice 16 year olds were more likely to be injured while driving than novice 17 or 18 year olds, with novice drivers defined as those with under a year of experience. A meta analysis of 11 studies since 1990 found the same results: 16 year old new drivers were more likely to crash than new older drivers.

[Pen]

 

2 hours ago, linders said:

Already has an app for "no touch while driving." Honestly, even when he isn't in a car, I think he uses Siri voice control more than actually holding the phone.

 

Mobile devices can be distracting even if it’s talking to Siri. 

In my state it is illegal for a teen to use mobile device while driving— even hands-free:

 

 

[Pen]

I looked at a list of state rules on mobile electronics use by drivers and teen graduated driving rules.  If you are in SC, it looks like you are in a much more more lax state than I am.  

Thus, possibly this difference in state law and probably in what seems “normal” for a parent to do or to require exists between our perspectives.  And perhaps it is also different for various people posting. 

It sounds to me like you are trying to be strict with your son — yet your strict doesn’t even seem to meet our state minimum legal requirements for teens under 18 to try to prevent teen car crashes.  

It is possible that teen driving in your part of country actually is safer.  Or also possible that it’s just as dangerous.  Idk. 

[theelfqueen]

We use an Automatic Pro in the car DS drives... he called me the other day to look up where he parked lol

It is also plugged into the ODB - so it sends us the codes if his check engine light comes on, which us pretty cool. And it tracks gas mileage stuff. 

[Pen]

(ETA- My son’s driving course included video of one of this type being used.  In it a group of parents monitor a group of teen friends in a car with a teen driving — no parents in car just the webcam.  It was a regular real-time viewing and recording webcam, not one that was also able to give immediate feedback of warning lights to the teens. The kids know the camera is there, and first are careful.  Then they start interacting with each other, their electronic technology  etc.  The parents are very surprised to see what is happening!      It gives a chance for parent to carefully review what’s happening without actually being in passenger seat.) 

 

 

Driving Webcams as Monitors: 

“This video camera monitors the teen directly, rather than the car. You place the camera on the windshield behind the rearview mirror where it films your teen as they drive. The device records risky maneuvers and alerts the driver by flashing lights that change colors. Parents can then watch the video of their teen driving monitor and discuss what they’ve seen.

According to research from the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, this can have a positive impact on teen’s driving behavior: teens who received an alert when they engaged in risky driving along with feedback from their parents changed their behavior immediately, whereas teens who received an alert but no feedback did not.

It is important to note that some behaviors can’t be tracked, such as drowsy driving.

Forgetting something? Download your certificate to accompany your conversation with your teen about the dangers of distracted driving. “

Edited February 1, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

 

Possibly of interest:

 

Page 6 of 12

DriveScribe – Android & iOS

According to the folks at Drive Power, creators of DriveScribe, this application makes the smartphone a safe driving coach. DriveScribe keeps track of where your teen drives the car, what routes they take, and rats them out when they violate traffic laws.

Parents can use the application’s points system to incentivize smart driving habits. Further, it blocks incoming messages and calls when the car is in motion to minimize distractions. At the end of each drive, DriveScribe assigns a score to the trip, based upon how well the driver performed. Scores are compared in DriveScribe’s social community, adding peer pressure to the mix of tools leveraged to keep your teen driver on the straight and narrow.