Course description--what if you supplement an outside provider class?

[cintinative]

I didn't see this question in the HS motherlode--if it is there, please point me in the right direction. Thank you.

My oldest is taking English 2 for high school credit at The Potter's School (they provide a transcript). However, at home, I am having him do additional reading and we are covering Figuratively Speaking by Delana Heidrich. How do I address this, if at all, on the course description document? Do I add these to the book list for English 2? I don't know if I need to worry about it at all, or if it would "help."  Technically Figuratively Speaking is a junior high resource. 

Thanks in advance!

[Lori D.]

You could just add the line "Credit also includes additional assigned readings at home."

Note: I would not worry about adding in Figuratively Speaking. It's a supplement to facilitate understanding literary elements -- not a huge component of a class. Nor is it a program that on its own is worth 0.5 credit (or even 0.25 credit).

Also, when you say "at home, I am having him do additional reading" -- what exactly do you mean? Are we talking 2 books, or 20 books, or something in between? And are you working with the books in any way (discussing, analyzing, writing about them)? Or are these books for pleasure reading, or family read-alouds, or historical fiction to supplement history, or assigned solo reads to encourage reading of good books, or other reason?

If it's just a few books for exposure to the work or for pleasure or family read-aloud, and if you're not doing any work with it, then there's no need to add that to the course description. Colleges assume that people read books outside of what's required for a class.

On the other hand, if needing to beef up the online class because you feel that it is "light", if you are doing 5-6 additional books (or more) AND doing something with those books ("digging deeper" through discussion, analysis, and/or writing reader responses and literary analysis essays about some aspect in the books), then definitely add that to the course description: "In addition to completing all of the required English 2 coursework, read, analyzed, and wrote essays on a number of additional works of literature, including ____(titles of several of the major works covered at home)___."

Just my 2 cents worth! BEST of luck as you wear your administrator hat. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Lori D.

[cintinative]

26 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

 

Also, when you say "at home, I am having him do additional reading" -- what exactly do you mean? Are we talking 2 books, or 20 books, or something in between? And are you working with the books in any way (discussing, analyzing, writing about them)? Or are these books for pleasure reading, or family read-alouds, or historical fiction to supplement history, or assigned solo reads to encourage reading of good books, or other reason?

If it's just a few books for exposure to the work or for pleasure or family read-aloud, and if you're not doing any work with it, then there's no need to add that to the course description. Colleges assume that people read books outside of what's required for a class.

On the other hand, if needing to beef up the online class because you feel that it is "light", if you are doing 5-6 additional books (or more) AND doing something with those books ("digging deeper" through discussion, analysis, and/or writing reader responses and literary analysis essays about some aspect in the books), then definitely add that to the course description: "In addition to completing all of the required English 2 coursework, read, analyzed, and wrote essays on a number of additional works of literature, including ____(titles of several of the major works covered at home)___."

 

 

This is helpful.  I am not sure of all the answers to these yet because I am still feeling my way along this year. 

So far I have assigned a book without any discusion and then multiple short stories that pertained to the figurative language pieces we were studying.  At home when we read aloud I always have a socratic discussion after each book, but I did not plan to count those.  We have also been reading and discussing the poetry and short stories I read aloud associated with Figuratively Speaking (I am supplementing it using the list on here). 

On the other hand, he's been in this class since the last week of August and they have only done writing so far, and no lit, and it is a comp and lit class. After drinking from the fire hose last year in WHA's Great conversation, this is a huge change for us.  It "feels" too light to me. So yes, I have been assigning extra reading in part because of this.  

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by cintinative

[Lori D.]

49 minutes ago, cintinative said:

This is helpful.  I am not sure of all the answers to these yet because I am still feeling my way along this year. 

So far I have assigned a book without any discusion and then multiple short stories that pertained to the figurative language pieces we were studying.  At home when we read aloud I always have a socratic discussion after each book, but I did not plan to count those.  We have also been reading and discussing the poetry and short stories I read aloud associated with Figuratively Speaking (I am supplementing it using the list on here). 

On the other hand, he's been in this class since the last week of August and they have only done writing so far, and no lit, and it is a comp and lit class. After drinking from the fire hose last year in WHA's Great conversation, this is a huge change for us.  It "feels" too light to me. So yes, I have been assigning extra reading in part because of this.  

I looked at the course description, and the Potter's School Eng. 2 class is labeled for grades 8-9. With what you're adding, it looks like a very solid 9th grade credit. So is sounds like you are on track to me (doing some lit. while waiting for the lit. component of the class to kick in). You can always adjust what you're doing at home (do more or do less) to fit with what the online class is doing -- if the online class is doing all writing, then you can just do lit. right now with no problems.

 And, it is definitely okay to have a less rigorous year of Lit. & Writing this year. Not all years have to be at WHA Great Conversation level (or Honors level, or AP level, or college level). It's absolutely fine to have some ordinary credits in there -- says the homeschooler whose children had ALL ordinary credits, and who have gone on and done fine with community college and ordinary universities. LOL. 😁

I guess that's something to consider... Are you planning on applying to top tier / selective / competitive colleges so that DS *needs* to have all high-end classes? If not, then you're absolutely fine.

Also, in looking at your signature -- is your signature updated? If so, then this for an 8th grader, not a high schooler -- so you do not have to worry about volume and rigor of material and counting credits. 😉 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Lori D.

[CAtoVA]

I'm doing the same thing for my DS's Blue Tent's Intro to Lit and Comp (grades 8-10). The lit "discussions" have pretty much totally been left up to the students with typically (uninspiring) results in my opinion. My main goal for this class for my DS was to increase his abilities to analyze and respond to quality literature. Consequently, I have him complete written supplementary questions and we have meaty discussions for each novel he reads (2 completed so far and starting the third now). The comp portion has also been light thus far but I'm not complaining (yet). DS writes well already and I think it may pick up as the class goes on. My one issue is when the instructor does assign a composition assignment it is along the lines of "write a story" with no support or mini lessons offered (except on mechanics such as punctuating dialogue). If you already write stories you know what to do, if not, the results are mediocre. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by CAtoVA

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

 

Also, in looking at your signature -- is your signature updated? If so, then this for an 8th grader, not a high schooler -- so you do not have to worry about volume and rigor of material and counting credits. 😉 

 

 

Yes, he just turned 14.  He's an "old" 8th grader so he could technically be in 9th, so I was going to give him credit for this year of English 2.

He's actually on track to get 3.5 high school credits this year if all goes well--1 for Latin, 1 for Alg 1, 1 for English, and 0.5 for Art of Argument.

Edited October 4, 2019 by cintinative

[cintinative]

51 minutes ago, CAtoVA said:

I'm doing the same thing for my DS's Blue Tent's Intro to Lit and Comp (grades 8-10). The lit "discussions" have pretty much totally been left up to the students with typically (uninspiring) results in my opinion. My main goal for this class for my DS was to increase his abilities to analyze and respond to quality literature. Consequently, I have him complete written supplementary questions and we have meaty discussions for each novel he reads (2 completed so far and starting the third now). The comp portion has also been light thus far but I'm not complaining (yet). DS writes well already and I think it may pick up as the class goes on. My one issue is when the instructor does assign a composition assignment it is along the lines of "write a story" with no support or mini lessons offered (except on mechanics such as punctuating dialogue). If you already write stories you know what to do, if not, the results are mediocre. 

 

Ugh. This is not encouraging. I had heard good things about them.

I feel like we have had a lot of comp work with TPS and I have seen some growth. He has completed papers of types he has never written before. There is definitely more scaffolding than what you are describing--we would be an epic failure over here with that little guidance.  I'm sorry.

Edited October 4, 2019 by cintinative

[8filltheheart]

You don't have to use TPS transcript.  You can write your own course description combining theirs and yours and just put it on the transcript as a course.  No U is going to think that a transcript from TPS is more valuable.

[CAtoVA]

I was very excited about Blue Tent with all the great reviews from this website. Then I found out that the experienced teacher who had been reviewed, and had taught the course for years apparently, was not teaching it this year (!!) The instructor we do have is a new instructor—new to this class and maybe new to Blue Tent, I don't know. The kids think she looks like a teenager in her picture so also young enough not to have a lot of teaching experience in general. 

I won't say this has been a terrible experience, though, just light and/or disappointing in some areas. There are also too many "moving parts" that are starting to irritate my DS (and me, lol). For example, there are about 6-7 places he has to navigate back and forth to continuously all week with directions to "write" about this, then "answer these questions," then "respond" to at least two, sometimes four classmates, etc. He'll go to respond to classmates and sometimes there aren't comments to respond to, or the comments are, well, very difficult to respond intelligently to, or the comments are so repetitive that once he has responded to one student it's time-wasting to say the same thing again to someone else. I think the biggest structural issue hampering my DS's interest right now is that the class has a wide range of ages (grades 8-10) with far more kids on the lower end (13) and it is obvious in terms of experience and abilities to engage in literature themes, analysis, etc. He gets what he needs from my supplementing though.

3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

You don't have to use TPS transcript.  You can write your own course description combining theirs and yours and just put it on the transcript as a course.  No U is going to think that a transcript from TPS is more valuable.

Thank you very much for this.  Hypothetically, in the case of the OP, if she creates her own course with the TPS as the foundation, but still uses other classes from TPS as is...would she acknowledge TPS on the course description or her transcript for those other classes?  Do universities really care where the course was taken unless it was taken at a college?  I see transcript examples with legends like a road atlas indicating where this or that class was taken.  My oldest is a junior and we have dabbled with different providers for areas of interest, but I have added content to varying extents.  I am still trying to figure out what my relationship is to these providers, their course titles, and grade recommendations when they aren’t really schools.  I have an 8th grader coming along and I want to make better informed decisions about outside coursework than I did the first time around.  Thanks!

[EKS]

I just added the additional readings into the description.

[8filltheheart]

@Mom2mthj No, U's don't care about co-ops or online homeschool providers. It is a perpetuated myth amg some homeschool communities that somehow those types of outsourced classes and grades hold more weight. They don't. U's have no way of evaluating the quality of coursework from those sources and are not going to waste time doing so.

Courses taught at home are valid, acceptable courses. 

In terms of the transcript and course descriptions, you need to do what honestly represents what was done. If you supplemented enough that the course was not just a provider's course, in your course description you could list their course as a source in addition to what you provided, similar to how I list Great Course lectures as a source. GC lectures are not the course. They are part of the course. 

[cintinative]

3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

@Mom2mthj No, U's don't care about co-ops or online homeschool providers. It is a perpetuated myth amg some homeschool communities that somehow those types of outsourced classes and grades hold more weight. They don't. U's have no way of evaluating the quality of coursework from those sources and are not going to waste time doing so.

 

Does accreditation mean anything?  Honest question.

Edited October 5, 2019 by cintinative

[8filltheheart]

In terms of NCAA, maybe??? No real idea bc I only read that stuff in the periphery bc my kids aren't athletes.

In terms of online classes and admissions in general? Doubtful. Non-traditional students, meaning those not attending a brick and mortar school, are usually lumped together in admissions. That means homeschoolers with mom-generated transcripts and regionally accredited online providers are being read by the same admissions officers as non-traditional.

SWB posted several yrs ago that they stopped pursuing accreditation after finding out it didnt make a difference for college admissions.

In terms of acceptances, your transcript/course descriptions are going to be evaluated compared to test scores, regardless of outsourced classes or home-brewed. That is just the nature of homeschooling and adcom's POV. FWIW, my kids have never faced any issue with acceptances with essentially 90%+ homebrewed classes.  (I think the myth is perpetuated by fear.)

[Farrar]

26 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

Does accreditation mean anything?  Honest question.

Not for the vast majority of situations. There are a small number of states and specific places where admission to state universities is much easier with an accredited transcript. But then you'd need to attend all your classes there so having a few individual courses from an accredited provider is meaningless. Most of those schools have a way around that anyway though - a minimum SAT score, for example. Also, as 8fillstheheart said, for NCAA it matters. Sometimes for people living abroad it matters for following other laws.

Around here, we know that not all providers are created equal and so many of us choose carefully for outsourcing. But colleges have never heard of these places.

My kids aren't there yet, but I didn't use the course descriptions from the local provider we used at all on the ones I updated for them so far. It was only a portion of the actual course, so I felt fine about writing my own.

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

Does accreditation mean anything?  Honest question.

Agreeing with previous posters -- accreditation is only needed in a few rare cases.

First, accreditation is only as good as the accrediting organization, and as far as high school accreditation goes, it needs to be accredited by one of the half dozen or so regional accrediting organizations designated on the list by the US Secretary of Education. So if a program was not accredited by one of those on the list, the "accreditation" is probably meaningless. So if paying for an accredited program, be sure that the cover school or program itself is accredited by one of these nationally recognized accrediting agencies.

Second, many people, and colleges, assume that if a student has a diploma from a public/private/charter school, that automatically means it is an "accredited" diploma (i.e., awarded by a school that has accreditation). But not all high schools are accredited, which means diplomas from those schools are not "accredited diplomas". See this brief article about high school accreditation -- and halfway down in the article are links to the USDE and CHEA databases for seeing if a specific high school is accredited. (Side note/personal peeve: I highly doubt that those few places that harp on homeschoolers for "accreditation" or an "accredited diploma" are double checking that OTHER entering freshmen attended an "accredited" high school and have an "accredited" diploma... grrr...) 

Third, the NCAA does NOT require accreditation. It DOES require that a high school student's 16 core courses be accomplished either with approved textbooks / materials, or through approved online course providers, or with a high school. Here is the information for homeschoolers and meeting NCAA requirements.

Finally, for homeschoolers, the only times I have seen someone need an "accredited diploma" is for some international/overseas universities (due to homeschooling not being understood or allowed in some countries); one or two U.S. universities (and even then, there is usually a work-around); and a number of trade schools and cosmetology schools (which want either an accredited diploma or a GED). Note: NY and CA are trickier about homeschoolers having to meet college admission credit requirements, but that is not exactly an accreditation issue -- more of having to do extra hoop-jumping, and jump in very specific ways.

If you are in the state of GA, they used to allow homeschoolers to become accredited; then they disallowed it for several years; and now it looks like they allow it again. See the George Accrediting Commission website, and the link to the Revised Standards for Non-Traditional Educational Centers (i.e., homeschoolers).

Also, for more on this topic, check out the past threads on accreditation, which are all inked on PAGE 1 of the big pinned thread at the top of this board: "High School Motherlode #1".
 

Side note: there MAY be some cases where accreditation may help if, partway into high school, a student shifts from homeschool to a public/private/charter school -- but, it also may do nothing. Homeschooling high school is often an "all or nothing choice as some high schools accept NO transfer credits (even from students moving from another district or state), and the student is placed back in 9th grade, regardless of their working level and credits completed previously. So a student who would be a 12th grader would still have to come in as a 9th grader. 

On the other hand, some high schools allow students to take an entrance/placement test and accept the transcript from the previous high school or homeschool.

And still other high schools fall somewhere in between -- they will grant credit for each "end of year test" that the student takes and passes. So if the student has previously completed 12 credits in the 2 years of high school before trying to enter the new high school, the student has to take, and pass, the 12 end of year tests -- one for each course -- to be awarded that credit on the new high school's transcript.

All that to say: if there is a possibility that the student may end up going to a brick and mortar high school, it's a good idea to research in advance what the local school policies are about accepting/not accepting homeschool students partway through high school, so that you can also know what alternatives you might need to look at.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Lori D.