Transcript and summer programs

[Mom0012]

What are people doing with classes their kids took at college programs over the summer? My dd has participated in competitive entry summer programs since middle school, but I’m not sure how to reflect them on her application. She put a lot of work into getting into these programs, so I’d like to put them somewhere.

I remember someone (maybe Arcadia) saying that they have a section on the transcript for “Classes Taken for Enrichment” with no grades or credit. This is the idea that appeals to me the most, but I have very little room left on my dd’s Transcript. I am thinking of making a page 2 for the transcript and just listing all the summer classes she’s taken and the colleges she’s taken them at without giving any credit.

The other option is to list the names of the summer programs in one space in the CA activities section and then write “(see course descriptions for actual classes taken)” and write out the classes there.

Anyone have any ideas for me?

[Mom0012]

I’m going back to thinking we won’t list these, but I’m not sure. I keep finding conflicting advice about it.

Since she is applying to the schools where she attended these programs, I’m thinking the programs will come up in her “Why Whatever College” essays because they were amazing experiences for her. I have always thought that these types of programs aren’t worth mentioning for admissions, but I had someone in the admissions field looking over my dd’s CA and she felt I should list them.

I’d still love to hear what others have done.

[Farrar]

Were these programs for college credit or just enrichment? Did the program give guidelines about credits? Many college summer programs do.

I would list them officially in some fashion. It's not unusual to have a second page of a transcript.

[daijobu]

What classes did your student take?  Are they core academic classes for which she received high school or college credit?  Did she receive a grade or P/F?  If it's a regular college class, then she will need to supply that college's transcript with her application.  You will want to include it on your own main transcript as well. 

If it was more of an enrichment class, no grades and no credit, and not something that was offered to college students or advanced high school students, like  where your student did some marine biology research, then I wouldn't call it a class, and classify it as an EC or something.  

It depends partly on what kind of activity it was.  

[Mom0012]

Thank you both for your thoughts. These classes were for enrichment. She had to write essays in order to gain admission to the programs. One of the classes did give her one college credit as a P/F and I don’t know what the heck to do with that. Give her .33 of a high school credit? Lol. She definitely doesn’t need the credit.

The main reason I can see listing them is because she worked so hard to gain entry into the programs and enjoyed the classes so much. The program she did from middle school up until she aged out last year was very reasonable financially and my dh and I paid for it. The program she attended this year (for the 1 credit) was expensive but she wanted to go so badly, she paid for a large chunk of it herself from her savings from her part time job.

I’ve been reading Sara Harberson’s site and she says you don’t list pay-to-play classes taken in the activities section of the app if they don’t require much more than test scores and a teacher rec. The program this summer fits that description more because while she had to write essays, they were pretty short. The other program that she attended for a number of years was at our state flagship and involved a pretty in-depth essay that always required a lot of research. It was targeted at gifted and high-achieving students.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Mom0012

[regentrude]

If those were for enrichment only and didn't translate into significant highschool credit, I would explain about those in the school profile. That way, you can highlight them, instead of burying them among oodles of academic credits on the transcript.

[Farrar]

I'm still not clear what these were.

I think the idea that "pay for play" doesn't count is a really difficult for homeschoolers to apply across the board. We often pay with no special requirements for a whole host of things, including core academic classes. And we often use summer experiences as a key way to give our kids opportunities that kids in schools have some form of already. Plus, some homeschoolers combine these sorts of mini-experiences with other work into a credit.

Putting that aside, if Generic Selective College offers a summer program... Generic Selective's Pre-College Research Seminar... you'd better believe that they'd like to see that your student did that program when they apply. So however you list it, don't leave it off entirely.

[Mom0012]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

If those were for enrichment only and didn't translate into significant highschool credit, I would explain about those in the school profile. That way, you can highlight them, instead of burying them among oodles of academic credits on the transcript.

Thank you. That is a good idea. As I’ve been talking this through, I started to realize this is another example of my dd’s love of learning and drive that I could put in my counselor letter. But the school profile is another place that this could be highlighted and I hadn’t thought of that. 

[Mom0012]

28 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I'm still not clear what these were.

I think the idea that "pay for play" doesn't count is a really difficult for homeschoolers to apply across the board. We often pay with no special requirements for a whole host of things, including core academic classes. And we often use summer experiences as a key way to give our kids opportunities that kids in schools have some form of already. Plus, some homeschoolers combine these sorts of mini-experiences with other work into a credit.

Putting that aside, if Generic Selective College offers a summer program... Generic Selective's Pre-College Research Seminar... you'd better believe that they'd like to see that your student did that program when they apply. So however you list it, don't leave it off entirely.

I’m just not sure. From what I’ve read, I think it can just be a signal of privilege and can hurt the student’s application at top colleges. I think if I do put the program she did this last year, I need to explain somewhere that she paid for much of it herself. 

But, yeah, I don’t want to completely omit it and signal that it was nothing to her because it was a major experience for her. Back to the drawing board . . ,

Here’s the link to the blog I mentioned and Sara’s thoughts on reporting activities. I really like this as a resource and much of her advice rings true to me. https://www.saraharberson.com/blog/to-report-or-not-to-report-the-strategy-behind-listing-your-summer-activities

Edited August 17, 2019 by Mom0012

[katilac]

What hurts your chances at one college will help your chances at another. You can make yourself crazy trying to figure out what "they" want and I wouldn't bother doing so for something like this. If these programs had meaning to her and helped shape her as a student, list them under extracurriculars and move on. I wouldn't list every single one, necessarily, particularly not ones from middle school. For my dds, we grouped things by topic (like Environmental or Art and Design) and one of the bullet points might be: Participated in multiple XYZ programs, including This Particular Program and That Particular Program. 

Edited to clarify that my kids did not apply to highly selective colleges, this is strictly my opinion based on observation and research. Write those documents with care, of course, but don't hide things that are important to the student and don't highlight things that aren't. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by katilac

[Mom0012]

3 hours ago, katilac said:

What hurts your chances at one college will help your chances at another. You can make yourself crazy trying to figure out what "they" want and I wouldn't bother doing so for something like this. If these programs had meaning to her and helped shape her as a student, list them under extracurriculars and move on. I wouldn't list every single one, necessarily, particularly not ones from middle school. For my dds, we grouped things by topic (like Environmental or Art and Design) and one of the bullet points might be: Participated in multiple XYZ programs, including This Particular Program and That Particular Program. 

Edited to clarify that my kids did not apply to highly selective colleges, this is strictly my opinion based on observation and research. Write those documents with care, of course, but don't hide things that are important to the student and don't highlight things that aren't. 

You are so right! That’s what makes it so hard to make a decision about these things — it will be perceived differently by various schools. I honestly had written off these programs as worthless for admissions based on what I’d read on these boards in the past and was surprised when it was recommended that I include them by someone who supposedly *knows*. I’m going to mention their impact and her participation in my school profile or guidance counselor letter but leave them off of the transcript and the activities section. I think. Lol.

[lewelma]

One of the schools my son applied to asked directly what he did with his summers.  So check individual applications if your schools have them.

[Farrar]

I think you're overthinking it to some extent. There are whole books about using summer programs and activities to help show colleges that you're serious about learning and will be an asset to them. Are colleges also onto the fact that these pre-college programs tend to be a marker of privilege? Of course. But they'd much rather see an application from a student who did something over the summer than didn't do anything, even if the something is an experience you have to pay money to do. And if the summer programs she has all add up to a picture of her actual interests, then that's a good thing, even if you paid for them. The things she did are the things she did. They're not a detractor. And she didn't sit around all summer by the pool or playing video games or whatever.

[Corraleno]

8 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

Here’s the link to the blog I mentioned and Sara’s thoughts on reporting activities. I really like this as a resource and much of her advice rings true to me. https://www.saraharberson.com/blog/to-report-or-not-to-report-the-strategy-behind-listing-your-summer-activities

I find her list of "reportable" and "not reportable" activities quite puzzling. Definitely list that you babysat your little sister all summer, but don't mention that you did a selective summer college program? Summer college programs aren't impressive but "blogging" and "building a website" are? I think pay-to-play "community service" trips to exotic locales are a different story — most people would agree that colleges are not impressed by rich kids whose only volunteer work was a week spent maintaining sea turtle habitat in Costa Rica — but summer academic programs in areas relevant to the student's future degree are surely worthy of note. Plus, if those programs were genuinely meaningful to the student, then pretending they didn't happen in the hope that colleges will somehow be more impressed the student didn't do summer college programs is kind of deceptive in itself.

FWIW, my son listed his summer college program right at the top of his activities list. The program was offered by his top choice school (which he now attends), and was equivalent to a standard intro class in his major. It didn't offer credit or a grade, but it did allow him to skip that class when he enrolled as freshmen. 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Corraleno

[Lecka]

I think the meaning of “pay to play” to me comes across like — the kind of thing where you pay but then it’s pretty light and the only requirement to get in is to pay.

That’s how it comes across to me.

For example — let’s say it was a cultural tour, and to some extent you just pay and go on the tour.  To me that is “pay to play.”  But even that I could see that being more meaningful.  

So I wonder if the blog author would consider these programs as her idea of “pay to play”?  I don’t know.  

[Mom0012]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

I think you're overthinking it to some extent. There are whole books about using summer programs and activities to help show colleges that you're serious about learning and will be an asset to them. Are colleges also onto the fact that these pre-college programs tend to be a marker of privilege? Of course. But they'd much rather see an application from a student who did something over the summer than didn't do anything, even if the something is an experience you have to pay money to do. And if the summer programs she has all add up to a picture of her actual interests, then that's a good thing, even if you paid for them. The things she did are the things she did. They're not a detractor. And she didn't sit around all summer by the pool or playing video games or whatever.

I’m sure I am overthinking this. 

But, it’s not a matter of either doing a summer program at a college or doing nothing. In order to add these programs, we have to cut out other things she’s done. So, I’m just trying to figure out what the best way to approach it is. I’ve heard for years that summer college programs are worthless for admissions, so the suggestion to include them has me wondering. 

[Mom0012]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I find her list of "reportable" and "not reportable" activities quite puzzling. Definitely list that you babysat your little sister all summer, but don't mention that you did a selective summer college program? Summer college programs aren't impressive but "blogging" and "building a website" are? I think pay-to-play "community service" trips to exotic locales are a different story — most people would agree that colleges are not impressed by rich kids whose only volunteer work was a week spent maintaining sea turtle habitat in Costa Rica — but summer academic programs in areas relevant to the student's future degree are surely worthy of note. Plus, if those programs were genuinely meaningful to the student, then pretending they didn't happen in the hope that colleges will somehow be more impressed the student didn't do summer college programs is kind of deceptive in itself.

FWIW, my son listed his summer college program right at the top of his activities list. The program was offered by his top choice school (which he now attends), and was equivalent to a standard intro class in his major. It didn't offer credit or a grade, but it did allow him to skip that class when he enrolled as freshmen. 

I appreciate you sharing that your ds chose to put his program at the top of his list since it was held at his top choice school. That is a very interesting perspective that I honestly hadn’t considered at all. Which is why I am asking this question. 

I guess some of the recommendations do seem a bit crazy. But, I think things like physical labor and true responsibilities like babysitting are done by very few kids currently applying to college and I can see why those types of things might stand out. Blogging about something you are interested in is an independently driven and possibly highly creative activity vs having your parents pay to have you attend a summer program.

I was thinking of not including these programs because there are only 10 spots on the CA for activities and my dd has already filled them with other meaningful activities that she has been involved in. It was recently suggested that we remove a large fundraiser she organized a couple of summers ago for these programs. Until this recent suggestion, I never considered including them because I considered them something colleges would roll their eyes at (an impression I got on this board and elsewhere). She never did them in order to put them on her college app. She did them because she wanted to. And they are enrichment programs that don’t relate to her *current* desired major. The program she chose to participate in this summer was selected by her because it was a subject she had never had a chance to learn anything about. Plus, it was held at a school she is seriously interested in. 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Mom0012

[daijobu]

18 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

Thank you both for your thoughts. These classes were for enrichment. She had to write essays in order to gain admission to the programs. One of the classes did give her one college credit as a P/F and I don’t know what the heck to do with that. Give her .33 of a high school credit? Lol. She definitely doesn’t need the credit.

 

 

So, I'm pretty sure you should include that course on her transcript, even if she doesn't need the credit.  And you should keep a copy of her college transcript--an unofficial pdf is fine for now--to upload to the Common App.  Once she's been admitted to a university, they will likely ask you for all official transcripts, so you should order this transcript for the admissions department.  

I had the same thing happen, where we accidentally on purpose signed up for a class at the CC.  It turned out to be pass/fail, and I wish it had never happened because it didn't amount to much.  But because it was a college class I needed to include the info on her transcript, and I ended up ordering an official transcript from the CC sent directly to the university.   Whatever.

I really like the story of your student saving her money to pay for this class.  It really shows initiative and love of learning and a strong work ethic.   

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, Mom0012 said:

I’m sure I am overthinking this. 

But, it’s not a matter of either doing a summer program at a college or doing nothing. In order to add these programs, we have to cut out other things she’s done. So, I’m just trying to figure out what the best way to approach it is. I’ve heard for years that summer college programs are worthless for admissions, so the suggestion to include them has me wondering. 

 

You aren't overthinking this.  It's tough to figure out which data field (if any) a given activity should be documented.   Should it be an EC, a transcript item, a main essay topic, or a response to a supplemental question?   Or should it go into your counselor letter?  

Cal Newport advocates leaving things off your college application, especially if you think those items will dilute the strength of her more impressive accomplishments.   This is hard to do.  You can read his book, How to be a High School Superstar, and decide for yourself.  

[daijobu]

11 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

Here’s the link to the blog I mentioned and Sara’s thoughts on reporting activities. I really like this as a resource and much of her advice rings true to me. https://www.saraharberson.com/blog/to-report-or-not-to-report-the-strategy-behind-listing-your-summer-activities

 

I just read this post and generally agree with her assessment.  But remember, these are general guidelines, and you need to look at your own student and think about what kind of picture you are painting of her.  Your student is the kind of kid who spends her hard-earned money on interesting educational opportunities.  That's pretty neat.  This blogger would suggest that because she paid for this experience, it isn't worth reporting.  But because she herself earned the money, and not the parents, I think this is impressive and worth reporting.  

Unless there are many other things about your student (not being sarcastic here...I imagine she's probably quite accomplished), it pales in comparison.  

[Mom0012]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

 

You aren't overthinking this.  It's tough to figure out which data field (if any) a given activity should be documented.   Should it be an EC, a transcript item, a main essay topic, or a response to a supplemental question?   Or should it go into your counselor letter?  

Cal Newport advocates leaving things off your college application, especially if you think those items will dilute the strength of her more impressive accomplishments.   This is hard to do.  You can read his book, How to be a High School Superstar, and decide for yourself.  

 

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

 

So, I'm pretty sure you should include that course on her transcript, even if she doesn't need the credit.  And you should keep a copy of her college transcript--an unofficial pdf is fine for now--to upload to the Common App.  Once she's been admitted to a university, they will likely ask you for all official transcripts, so you should order this transcript for the admissions department.  

I had the same thing happen, where we accidentally on purpose signed up for a class at the CC.  It turned out to be pass/fail, and I wish it had never happened because it didn't amount to much.  But because it was a college class I needed to include the info on her transcript, and I ended up ordering an official transcript from the CC sent directly to the university.   Whatever.

I really like the story of your student saving her money to pay for this class.  It really shows initiative and love of learning and a strong work ethic.   

 

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

 

I just read this post and generally agree with her assessment.  But remember, these are general guidelines, and you need to look at your own student and think about what kind of picture you are painting of her.  Your student is the kind of kid who spends her hard-earned money on interesting educational opportunities.  That's pretty neat.  This blogger would suggest that because she paid for this experience, it isn't worth reporting.  But because she herself earned the money, and not the parents, I think this is impressive and worth reporting.  

Unless there are many other things about your student (not being sarcastic here...I imagine she's probably quite accomplished), it pales in comparison.  

Thank you very much! I am going to get the Cal Newport book and see if that gives me some more ideas. I really appreciate you empathizing with me about how complicated the process is and for your suggestions and kind words about my dd.