Have you "let yourself go" after getting married?

[Heather in Neverland]

I just had a thought...

 

a million years ago I read that 5 Love Languages book. I am guessing that my brother's primary love language is "acts of service". I wonder what my SIL's is? I wonder if my brother knows? (doubtful) I wonder if she even knows?

 

Mine are quality time and gifts. My dh is physical touch. So we make a point to "speak each other's language".

 

DUH. I can't believe I just thought of this. Have any of you read that book? Let's pretend SIL's love language is "words of affirmation" and she knows his is "acts of service" so they make it a point to speak each other's love language and see what happens????

 

Should I get them the book for Christmas? Would that be rude?

[helena]

I think a lot of women TOTALLY give up. And for a lot of men that feels like a raw deal. Why are women so quick to dismiss men like that? I can't help but wonder if women that are criticizing this guy, are gals like the wife described in o.p.? A lot of men don't expect their ladies to look like some Brazilian underware model, I think these guys want a girl who makes an effort, it's a joyful thing to doll yourself up. There are so many good reasons for why you didn't get around to cleaning yourself up day after day, but it never feels as good as taking 15 minutes to fix your hair, dab some perfume, powder your face, put on something that doesn't have stains on it, and greet your hubby with a smile on your face. I have lupus... I feel awful all the time. Keeping up my appearance has been the most positive thing I have done, for both my husband, and myself. I don't want to give up, and loose my spark. My husband recognizes this and feels so lucky to have me. He knows that I understand something about HIM, and that I don't begrudge him for it. I also think that there is a lot of of strange negativity from women that don't place much value in looks and, or weight towards women who do. I was at a dinner tonight and a bigger woman used the term skinny b***h. All the women just laughed! That kind of thing happens a lot. Could you imagine if a skinny girl at this dinner said "fat cow". I have no problem understanding that there are all kinds of women in this world, I love them all. I am an artist and I see beauty everywhere I look. But there IS an undeniable nasty attitude towards women who groom, by women who don't. I also think it's to be expected that siblings would confide in each other. If we had to pay a therapist every time you called a family member as a sounding board, we would all be broke, and we would hardly know each other from strangers in the street. Obviously there are rules to this game, I think most of us know when to say, ooo that's to much information , go talk to a professional! I doubt this man would have any problems if he saw effort in any given area, why would he care about dinner, if he knew what he was having for dessert:), or care that another day she's in sweats, if the house is sparkling? It's all about balance, effort, and really actually trying to have a good attitude. People recognize that and appreciate it. It makes the world a better place to live in! P.S.Obviously none of us can ever really know this couples problems, I am writing in a general way.

[Barb_]

I just had a thought...

 

a million years ago I read that 5 Love Languages book. I am guessing that my brother's primary love language is "acts of service". I wonder what my SIL's is? I wonder if my brother knows? (doubtful) I wonder if she even knows?

 

Mine are quality time and gifts. My dh is physical touch. So we make a point to "speak each other's language".

 

DUH. I can't believe I just thought of this. Have any of you read that book? Let's pretend SIL's love language is "words of affirmation" and she knows his is "acts of service" so they make it a point to speak each other's love language and see what happens????

 

Should I get them the book for Christmas? Would that be rude?

 

I don't know that Christmas is a good time to draw attention to the problems in their marriage, but a 'just because' gift would be a solid step in the right direction.

 

Barb

[Blessedfamily]

They did not live together before marriage so he didn't have any idea in advance (but I told him he should have guessed because her mother's house is very messy).

 

When our church did the ladies night thing there was one woman who's house was extremely messy, even when company visited. The kids all ate on the sofa, etc. She didn't seem embarrassed.

 

The Pastor's wife went to visit her afterwards, and the house was just terrible. She told the pastor's wife that her house was a mess becasue that's how she grew up and her mother never "taught her" how to clean up.

 

Sometimes when people grow up with that standard, they keep it.

[Heather in Neverland]

I don't know that Christmas is a good time to draw attention to the problems in their marriage, but a 'just because' gift would be a solid step in the right direction.

 

Barb

 

What? You mean a big ol' box stuffed with books on how to save your marriage to be opened in front of everyone is a BAD idea? Sheesh...sometimes I am such a dork.

[Blessedfamily]

What? You mean a big ol' box stuffed with books on how to save your marriage to be opened in front of everyone is a BAD idea? Sheesh...sometimes I am such a dork.

 

Well, I was going to suggest a gift certificate to Molly Maids.

[Barb_]

What? You mean a big ol' box stuffed with books on how to save your marriage to be opened in front of everyone is a BAD idea? Sheesh...sometimes I am such a dork.

 

LOL, no you are cute as can be. And a really good sport. Although I'm having a hard time seeing your brother's POV, I wouldn't have been able to keep my sense of humor they way you have under the same circumstances. Best of luck to your brother and his wife.

 

Barb

[Nestof3]

Sometimes when people grow up with that standard, they keep it.

 

I wonder about this sometimes too. I have been in people's houses that totally disgust me. The bathroom reeks of urine, crumbs are everywhere, flies are all over the place -- even in utensil drawers, there's never a hand towel around to dry one's hands on, dishcloths look like they've been used for a week straight, trash, food, clothes, etc. are strewn all over the floors of rooms. Neither my husband nor I could function in such a place.

 

He and I both come from families where the mom kept the house clean as that was one of her main jobs. Neither mom homeschooled, and in the case of my mom, it was definitely not asking too much of her to have the house clean and the meals made. She still had plenty of time for hobbies, and the neighborhood ladies came over for coffee and cookies when we left for school.

 

I've wondered about the daughters of these families -- what kind of cleanliness their house will have?

[Blessedfamily]

I wonder about this sometimes too. I have been in people's houses that totally disgust me. The bathroom reeks of urine, crumbs are everywhere, flies are all over the place -- even in utensil drawers, there's never a hand towel around to dry one's hands on, dishcloths look like they've been used for a week straight, trash, food, clothes, etc. are strewn all over the floors of rooms. Neither my husband nor I could function in such a place.

 

He and I both come from families where the mom kept the house clean as that was one of her main jobs. Neither mom homeschooled, and in the case of my mom, it was definitely not asking too much of her to have the house clean and the meals made. She still had plenty of time for hobbies, and the neighborhood ladies came over for coffee and cookies when we left for school.

 

I've wondered about the daughters of these families -- what kind of cleanliness their house will have?

 

Well, in the house I was referring too, when the pastor's wife visited the kids were sitting on the sofa eating dinner out of a frying pan. They had dishes- They just didn't have clean dishes.

 

The girls are grown now, and mostly the same except one whose husband won't put up with it.

[snickelfritz]

Not for Christmas.:D But, I think this explains a lot.

 

I've tried to figure out how to explain, since I could be your sister-in-law.

 

Messiness, passive-agressive response, etc..

 

My dh saying anything about my weight would destroy me. He has never done that. Even in a "trying to be helpful" way, it would destroy me. I eat when I'm stressed, so that would not achieve the desired result.

 

My dh saying things about the house (we have had issues on this) sends me into a depression. I don't usually say much back, but I internalize it. I eat. I get in a funk. It bothers me when I do something and he doesn't say anything. Or, if I spent all day on organizing our closets and didn't get dinner fixed. "Notice the closets!" I am very much a "words of affirmation" person.

 

After 13 years of marriage, we've learned some compromises and we do pretty well with them. I am doing a better job on the house (NOT perfect and you would probably not be impressed.) He has relaxed on his expectations. He hired me help. I shamelessly point out things that I want him to notice and he gushes.

 

Back to the mom theory:

My mom did the bare minimum around the house, but kept beautiful gardnes. She still does, on both counts.

 

Dh's mom kept an immaculate house, but had messy gardens. (still does)

 

I like to garden.

[5kidsforME]

I asked because I needed some perspective that I admit I don't really have to give him. I admit that I don't get what her problem is with the housework. She has one child, she is NOT homeschooling, and works part-time. I just don't get why it is so hard for her to keep her house clean. I admit that I don't get what you mean when you say some women are "incapable" of it. What does that mean? How hard is it to pick up a broom? That's why I asked because I don't get it and I was hoping you would help me get it.

 

 

 

 

See to me, on top of the fact that he went to HIS sister (you) and told her personal stuff knowing that she (you again) was nothing like his wife and in no way could relate would be a big problem as well.

[Joanne]

I realize that my response will be filtered through people's perception of my background, history, posting style, the fact that I am divorced from an abusive, controlling creep.

 

But this thread it "out there" on the net, with some pretty personal and intimate details.

 

I'm not going to respond to the original question, but to the issues in *this* circumstance.

 

He HAS talked to her, numerous times, about her weight. He has paid for gym memberships but she never goes. He buys healthy food for the house, she orders out. That's why he is frustrated.

 

This......is icky. It's just icky. Talking to her about "her weight", and making passive/aggressive actions which would benefit *his* perspective on something truly personal/intimate to her (what she does with her body) is 1) not healthy 2) counter productive.

 

 

 

He calls it the "marital bait and switch".

 

The is one example that may point to a perspective about women or marriage that would bother me greatly.

 

Well, the problem is he doesn't really believe in counseling of any kind. He says they are just professional "opinion-havers". The reason he talks to me about it is because talks with her are going nowhere and he is at the end of his rope.

 

I wouldn't assume his refusal to mean he's a part of the problem.

 

While I don't believe that not going to counseling = an issue, I do think it can be a symptom of a major contributing issue. In many cases that I've lived and observed, refusal to seek qualified help, accountability and support is part of wanting to deny "our part" of the issue.

 

I guess my reason for the OP is to get an idea of what is normal, acceptable change in marriage (people do gain weight, people do go bald) and what is our responsibility in a marriage? My brother is very big on responsibility...he is a very responsible person. He sees her letting herself go as a sign that she doesn't care enough about him any more to want to look good for him. She "knows" how hard he works and what long hours and being able to come home to a clean house and warm dinner makes him feel loved.

 

 

This is, IMO, a very skewed perception of who she is responsible for and who is responsible for his feelings.

 

I gained a lot of weight in my previous marriage. In my case, it was depression fueled by a very dysfunctional, controlling and abusive marriage.

 

I know from personal experience that you can't make lasting, healthy changes for another person, especially if that person expects it "out of respect" or other outside imposed standard. Getting to a healthy weight and healthy relationship with food will need to come when she's ready to care enough for herself; when she finds and exercises a healthy level of care for her own attractiveness. No one can force that on her or impose that desire on her.

 

My xh once said, in an accurate and rare respectful moment that the weight didn't bother him as much as the lack of confidence and "sexy" that I lost as I gained the weight. That made so much sense (and, fortunately for me, accelerated the changes I needed to make).

 

I've thought about having a heart-to-heart with her since counseling is unlikely but he has not asked me to and I don't know if I'd be overstepping my bounds. I do not want them to get divorced. I love her very much.

 

Please consider getting out of this role. It's not your place and I (said gently) fear that you are exacerbating the areas in which he is making things worse instead of better.

 

There is something "off" about your brother's approach to this and, I suspect, towards marriage relationships in general. The controlling tone, the keeping "score" of who does what, when and the patronizing approach has me concerned.

 

Finally, you mentioned that "she is a happy person" and therefore you think depression is not likely may show a lack of understanding about depression or lack of experience with it. The combination of elements in your posts about this situation in this thread point very much to depression on her part.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't think badly of you or your DB. I think that as you stated, you both lack understanding of your DSIL. Looking for that understanding is wonderful. Gaining it is what DB marriage needs.

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. The book suggestions have been noted and I will be giving them to him. I really did not intend for this to become so much about how awful my brother is or how he "bashes" his wife to me on the phone. I know I can tell you a million times that he is asking these questions in all sincerity and you are still going to think that just because he is unhappy with the enormous amount of weight gain he is a shallow jerk.

 

I asked because I needed some perspective that I admit I don't really have to give him. I admit that I don't get what her problem is with the housework. She has one child, she is NOT homeschooling, and works part-time. I just don't get why it is so hard for her to keep her house clean. I admit that I don't get what you mean when you say some women are "incapable" of it. What does that mean? How hard is it to pick up a broom? That's why I asked because I don't get it and I was hoping you would help me get it.

 

Some have suggested she is depressed. I am not sure as she seems like a pretty happy person to me but I am going to suggest that to my brother.

 

I am sorry some of you are offended that my brother confides in me but I don't see anything wrong with it. He isn't telling me anything I can't see with my own eyes (the weight, the messy house). We don't talk about their sex life for goodness sake.

 

I will share your advice with him...that was the point of all this after all. But I have a hard time agreeing with those who think that there are no limits in a marriage, no obligations. Marriage is a partnership. Each person contributes to it. Yes it is about love but at some point, the dishes have to get done. ;)

 

Thanks again to those who offered ideas and books. I feel a little better armed for my next conversation with him.

 

The fact is that even if she did not care about the state of the house or her appearance, I would think that the strain it is causing on her marriage would make her want to change it. I couldn't/can't and I can tell you that I do care! On certain days though, I would purposely not improve even if I had a good day where I could, because then DH would think his complaining had worked. Does that make sense? There was an episode of "Clean House" with the DH with ADD contributing greatly to the mess. My mom never understood my inability to keep my house up. Then she met two friends with ADD. They can't do it either. And now she is having more and more health problems (I have also had severe CFS) and says she has never felt this badly before and understands (finally). If she asks for advice on cleaning/organizing then I suggest a firm schedule and an egg timer. I have a schedule and I still can't get it done. But if I know that I am cleaning the bathroom and only the bathroom (or only the bathrooms that day) for 10 minutes it helps. Otherwise I wander around cleaning up and making no discernable progress.

 

Depression is a catch-all. She may also have ADD, or hypothyroid, or Chronic Fatigue, nutritional deficiencies, or hormone imbalance... the list goes on and on... The thing is that she needs understanding. Making her feel bad about herself is not going to help matters, it will only make it worse.

 

I am glad this has helped!

[orangearrow]

And for the record, I work full time and so does my dh and we homeschool and I am taking 2 graduate classes and my home is clean and I do not let myself go...it can be done if you work as a team.

 

I'm wondering if this itself could be part of the problem. You've said you are your brother's best friend. You work full time. You homeschool. You also take graduate classes (and probably do very well with them). Your home is neat and clean all the time. You look as good as you did back before kids....

 

Well... that's a lot to compete with (just trying to see if from her side). Since you and your bro are so close, I'm imagining that his wife has heard a few times "Well, Heather can do it 'all' and she has more on her plate than you do!" or some similar version of this statement.

 

Maybe, if she's a woman of fragile ego, that's enough for her to throw up her hands and say, "ya know what? I give up! I'll never be as high energy (insert your own description here) as she is... and I'm tired of hearing about it." Especially if they were barely married a year before they had a baby.

 

I wish the best for your SIL and your brother. :)

 

~D

Edited November 24, 2008 by orangearrow

[Penelope]

You know what jumps right out at me: he works 60 hours a week.

 

And you said they're a young couple, right? They've only been married five years.

 

A few years ago I passed around an ebook called something like: keys to the castle. One of the biggest things I got from it is that men go through a phase in their twenties to early 30s or so where they put work first. They put their shoulder to the wheel and just grind it out. They may come home at night, but they are barely "there". They are building their career and that's where it's at.

 

It's a good thing overall, because by their 30s they can look up and take a break. They've often got a solid career by this time and are doing well by there family. Everything's hunky-dory, right?

 

Except by the time he sticks his head up and looks around, his wife is ready for a divorce. Because while he's been "working" 60 hours a week, she's been working 168 hours a week, with no breaks, EVER.

 

It doesn't matter whose work is harder or who makes more money; new mothers are "on" all the time. They are responsible ALL THE TIME.

 

Here are my suggestions to your brother in law. They are very simple:

 

1. When he gets home from work he needs to kiss his wife, say "I want to hear about your day - just give me 15 minutes first." Then he needs to go take the time he needs to change, use the bathroom, whatever it takes to shift from work to home; then go back to where his wife is and LISTEN WITHOUT MAKING ANY SUGGESTIONS for 20 minutes. Kiss her again at the end of it, hug her and wipe away her tears if she's crying, ask if there's anything he can do. If there isn't - let it go. She's not complaining about him; she's just getting rid of her own stress.

 

2. Make sure that once a week she gets out of the house ALONE for 3 - 4 hours to do something for her - a class, exercise, lunch with friends, etc. Errands for the family DO NOT COUNT. If he wants extra points, he'll take the child with him and leave her alone AT HOME for four hours. All young mothers crave time alone in their houses. The trick here is that he has to make sure each week that this happens; he can't make her ask for it each week.

 

3. Make sure that at least once a week he and his wife go OUT BY THEMSELVES for a date. If they don't have money for it, create the date at home. Put the kid to bed, make some special food and watch a movie or something that's out of the ordinary. Still shoot to go out once a month or once every two months, even. Date time is hugely important.

 

That's it. I bet if he made it his job to take on these three tasks, his marriage would rise to hights he'd never dreamed about and his wife would probably take an interest in her looks more on her own.

 

I so agree with all of this. Sixty hours per week is a lot, but she works too and probably has more of the child care. Does he help with laundry or pitch in with other things? Is their 4 year old maybe going through a phase where more intense parenting is required and she is overwhelmed? The dinner thing makes me wonder... have they ever sat down and defined their expectations for who does what around the house? I think that is the first step. Does he expect her to cook on the days that they both work? Dh and I had an adjustment period after kids where we had to redefine our expectations for one another and be clear about what we wanted and what we were willing and able to do.

[Laura Corin]

did she keep the house clean and have dinner on the table before they were married, or was that merely His Plan?

 

 

I didn't grow up with any education on how to keep a house (my beloved mother had, and has, no interest in housework), nor did I develop any independent passion for it. Luckily, husband did not have 'a plan', despite being a much tidier person than I am. He married me for my personality, my conversation.... not as a housekeeper.

 

He has loved me through twenty years of indifferent housekeeping, and now, when I have decided for myself that I want to live in a different way (and coincidentally dress in a different way), has said not one word about how relieved he is. I love that man.

 

Laura

[Colleen]

Eliana, I was just this day thinking of you.:) It's always such a treat to read your posts, filled with widsom, grace, and humility. What a treasure you are.

 

I believe that when we look with love, we see beauty. I believe that part of marriage is unconditional love.

 

Knowing, knowing with that absolute, bone-deep certainty that I am, despite all my flaws, perfect in my husband's eyes is one of the enormous gifts he's given me in our marriage. He helps me grow; he recognizes my imperfections (and is always there to help me in my struggles to overcome them), but on some amazing level he chooses not to see them. Instead he sees my truest essence, my intentions, my love... he sees beauty and wisdom and goodness and because he sees those things in me, he helps me to see better my own potential, he helps me to believe that I can really be the person I want to be, the person I should be. Because when he looks at me that is who he sees. When he looks at me and calls me beautiful I almost believe I really am - and I know that to him I am the most beautiful woman in the world, the most desirable... the best.

 

 

And, I try, oh so imperfectly, to give that back to him. To show him that to me he is perfect - no matter what he does or doesn't do, no matter what checklists get fulfilled - I can imagine no better husband in the world.

 

Some of that comes naturally from love, but most of it has to be nurtured, and fed. It is a conscious choice, to see the good, to see the beautiful, to see with love's eyes. ...to create a marriage built on giving, not taking, a marriage of mutual adoration. It's about the little things - sharing books, jokes, the corners of our lives - it's about being really present in our relationship, about really looking at each other.. with love and compassion; it's about seeing our marriage as an act of kedusha (holiness), it's about believing that with love, prayer, and lots of effort we can *choose* how we live, how we love, and even, to some extent, how we feel.

 

Wow. Gulp. You expressed all this so beautifully. I can't even imagine...

[Colleen]

To directly answer your question: Have I "let myself go"? No, I haven't. I'm in good shape, I eat well, and I like to have things around me clean and organized. But truth be told, none of that relates to my husband. I don't eat well for his sake. I don't run for his sake. I don't clean for his sake. I do it because I want to do it; in that respect, it's pure selfish motivation.

 

If I wasn't inherently a neat freak; if I wasn't one to whom diet and exercise habits were important ~ if I wasn't just this way naturally, I don't know how things would play out for me as a wife and mother. Maybe I'd find it within me to develop good habits for the sake of the people around me. Or not. I honestly can't say since it's not my reality.

 

I can say that there's nothing particularly praiseworthy about "not letting oneself go". There are a great many marriages out there better than mine, despite the fact that one or both spouses have "let themselves go" to one extent or another. I'd trade a clean house and nice legs for unconditional love and commitment any day of the week.

 

Having said that, I can't wholeheartedly agree with the idealistic notion that what's inside is all that counts. Oh, I know that sounds shallow, but the plain truth is that our personal habits can affect not only our own mindset, but our relationships. The point has been made that we own these decisions ourselves. That gaining weight or eating poorly or not helping keep the house clean, etc is not a sign of disregard for one's spouse as much as it is disregard for one's own self. I don't disagree with that. But if I do disregard my own health; if I do gain weight or let the house go to pot...then I'd better accept the fact that others are going to be affected in some way, and react accordingly. If my husband put on a couple of hundred pounds, for example, you better believe it'd affect my degree of attraction. And if I knew he was exacerbating the weight gain, e.g. eating a junk diet, living like a couch potato, it'd bug the you-know-what out of me.

 

It's well and good to say that no matter how we look, no matter our habits, we're the same person inside. How we live, though, and how we present ourselves, does affect our psyche. And that in turn affects who we are. Hypothetically, let's say from here on out I just lay around, unshowered, on the couch, in my sweats, eating junk and watching the idiot box, surrounded by mayhem. I begin living like that rather than taking proper care of myself. At some point nurture is going to affect nature. Who I am is going to be affected by what I'm doing. And what I'm doing is going to affect what other people around me are doing ~ or not doing, as the case may be.

 

So. I understand your brother's frustration, Heather. At the same time, I'm hearing just his side of the story ~ and even that, via another source. And I truly do believe that the best thing you can do to help this couple, from here on out, is to step aside. You are not the best person to help, for a variety of reasons. You're too close to your brother. You're only hearing and talking with him. And you're a very different person than your sister-in-law ~ a person whose abilities and habits your brother likely admires. He may very well be comparing his wife to you ~ that's what you yourself are doing, in fact. And there is no way on God's green earth that that comparison isn't in some manner evident to his wife.

 

So please, step aside. Encourage them to get some more objective input. Hopefully, that objective input will help them move away from what I sense is a competitive, "business partnership" mode to their marriage. I sense it, because I live it. And I can say with assurance that it's a very unhealthy way to begin, and to develop, a marriage.

 

Best to you, Heather, and to your brother and his wife.