CC Challenge A change in plans. Help!

[jens2sons]

We have been participating in Classical Conversations Foundations and Essentials for the past couple years.  I initially decided to enroll my 12 yo son in Challenge A for next year but I'm having second thoughts.  I'm not new to homeschooling and so having someone tell me the topics to cover are kind of irritating.  As I look in to their choices of curriculum for CH A, I'm somewhat ok with what he'd be using but I almost want to wait one more year and use IEW before we start Lost Tools of Writing.  I'm also wondering why they start using Henle Latin so early when it's a high school course.  My biggest issue is with the lack of history study at this age.  I know many CC Challenge moms that say they get plenty of history but it's through historical fiction and their Cartography book.  There is no formal study using non-fictional sources.  I want to add that in to the program but I'm told that with their workload thee is no time.  My second largest concern is the price of joining.  I've already paid my registration fee but I'd rather stop there and save the $600+ per semester.  I just can't see why anyone would pay so much money just to be part of a community 🤷‍♀️  From what I understand, the parent works with the Challenge student at home and then drops the student off just to go over the previous week's work and do some review.  I also can't understand why it's 30 weeks instead of 36 weeks.  The program just seems so stinking' rushed and I don't understand the reason why it has to be this way.

So, with all that said, I am wondering if there are any like minded parents here that have struggled with this very thing and have chosen to go a different route?  What curriculum did you find that followed up well with the Essentials program?  Did you just use the CH A materials at home?  How did the transition make homeschooling more relaxed at home? TIA!

[HomeAgain]

I think very few of the parents here use CC.  I know that a few who have are on the Facebook group: Let Us Reason For Real, which provides a good look at the interior of CC and significant concerns from present and past users.

Have you taken a look around the forum here and seen the lists of what everyone else is doing for next year?

[Lori D.]

Not a Classical Conversations (CC) user here, BUT... I have seen a number of people on these boards share that they are/were CC users, and a number have said that while Foundations, but esp. Essentials worked great for their family, at the Challenge levels, CC no longer could meet their needs -- often because the student needed to be working with different materials, or work at a different level than what the student's age allowed for with CC's age/grade regulations, or the tutor was not a good fit for the student's needs.

Looking for Curricula Ideas:
Agreeing with HomeAgain about browsing the middle school "planning threads" to get a feel for what others are using, and research to see if something might be a good fit for you. WTMer Plum has compiled "The Big Grade Planning Link List" with links to each grade, plus not only the current year's planning thread, but also threads from the past 3-5 years. Here are the middle school planning threads for the upcoming school year:

6th grade 2019-2020
7th grade planning for 2019-2020
2019-2020 8th grade planning

Outsourcing:
Also, there are so MANY options for online courses for outsourcing, that the money that might have been spent on CC registration is often enough to pay for 2-4 online classes (depending on the course provider). Many online classes run for 2-semesters / 32-36 week school year. Some also provide summer school options. All that to say, if you wished to outsource one or more school subjects, there are many options available to you.

For History:
One thing to be aware of in planning for middle school history is that you can run in to overlap with required high school Social Studies credits -- required by colleges to have been completed in high school to be eligible for admission to the college. So it can be helpful to understand what those possible required high school credits are, and work backwards by grade to figure out what you want to cover in middle school so you don't end up repeating/having gaps. The typical Social Studies credits required by colleges for admission usually include:

1.0 credit = American History (most colleges require it)
1.0 credit = World History (any time period or the big "sweep" of time) -- OR -- World Geography (many colleges require it)
0.5 credit EACH = Economics and Gov't (some colleges require it)

That said: If interested in an American History focus, many people use Joy Hakim's The History of US in the grade 7-9 range. So if interested in doing US history, you might want to plan on doing it in 7th grade, and then waiting until along about 11th/12th grade in high school to do it as the required American History credit. That gives you 3-4 years in between to do other History topics.

If interested in starting a chronological cycle of World History next year, Veritas Press: Omnibus starts the first of two 3-year cycles in 7th grade (7th/10th = Ancients; 8th/11th = Medieval to Enlightenment; 9th/12th = Early Modern/Modern). Or, a few 4-year chronological history programs that are frequently used, and could be started with a 7th grader starting off with Ancient history:
- Tapestry of Grace (Christian)
- Biblioplan (Christian)
- History Odyssey (secular)

Or, Sonlight (Christian) core W is a 1-year World History study geared for grades 6-8, largely done through living books. Book Shark (secular version of Sunlight) grade 7 is the second half of World History.

Or Build Your Library (secular), another living book-based curriculum, has a "crash course World History year" for grade 8 -- I'm sure a 7th grader would be fine with it. You might also check out the Moving Beyond the Page units (also secular).

Another thought:
Are you planning on homeschooling into or through high school? If so, I'd encourage finding some social outlets for your DS. For example, you can continue the speech/public speaking aspect of CC through a co-op class, or involvement in community youth theater, or joining a homeschool or after school Speech & Debate club. Lots of ideas for extracurriculars for middle schoolers as well as high schoolers in these past threads:

Once your child hits middle school, does all the 'fun stuff' stop? (how gr. 7-12 are fun in new ways + ideas) 
Advice for extracurriculars (lots of ideas in the posts)
What extracurricular activities for the high school years?
High school socialization (activity ideas)
DS is so, so lonely (activity & social suggestions for teens)

Welcome to planning for homeschool middle school! (:D Wishing you and DS a GREAT year, however you decide to do it. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Lori D.

[staceyobu]

Challenge A was a horrible fit for us. One of my biggest regrets is not withdrawing at semester. The Latin went WAY too fast. The writing was tedious. The geography and science was a ton of drawing and my daughter hated it (and she loves to draw for fun). We fell way behind in math because they didn't do anything with it in class, so I kept pushing it aside to try to stay on top of the rest of her work. I felt like we lost an entire school year, accomplished nothing, and killed my daughter's love for learning. Granted, part of the misery could have been the general misery of 7th grade and entering the teenage years, but I would never recommend the program.

We had previously completed four years of Foundations/Essentials. So, my daughter did have a background on how CC works going into Challenge A. There were things I disliked about the lower levels, but I generally felt the pros outweighed the cons. I'm hard pressed to find any pros to challenge.

[kristin0713]

We did CC for 3 years at the Foundations level.  I would consider Challenge only if my child was excited about the materials *and* had an established group of friends in the group.  I like some of it but not all of it. Generally, I think it's fine and I think doing it several years of it would be a fine education.  However, it is expensive for what it is, the quality of tutoring depends on the tutor, and the workload completely dictates your year.  There are so many other programs that I think are better.  But again, a student being excited about the work and the other kids would be a big plus for me. 

[Forgiven]

Your concerns sound like the some of the reasons we stopped doing Classical Conversations. It is way too rushed, they don't focus enough on math, so most of the kids put it to the side and fall way behind, and I truly don't believe all the tutors (directors for Challenge levels) are properly equipped to be leading the classes.

My DD did CH A, B, and 1. It was CH1 that broke us. We left, and are so glad we did. We get so much more done now, and we are free to do it at our own pace. My kids actually have the time to think about what they're learning instead of stuffing and cramming just so they can be a part of the the conversations on community day. It really was a waste of time and money, and I wish we never went down that road. 😞

All three of my kids are challenge age this year. My DS1 did CHA in a community. He does so much better on his own. He hated doing his work when he knew he had to go to a class and talk about it with his peers, who, unfortunately were all elitists. That was a vibe I was so glad to get away from -- the elitists. Sorry, I digress...

All that to say, your concerns are legitimate. 😉

[jens2sons]

On 6/22/2019 at 4:05 PM, staceyobu said:

Challenge A was a horrible fit for us. One of my biggest regrets is not withdrawing at semester. The Latin went WAY too fast. The writing was tedious. The geography and science was a ton of drawing and my daughter hated it (and she loves to draw for fun). We fell way behind in math because they didn't do anything with it in class, so I kept pushing it aside to try to stay on top of the rest of her work. I felt like we lost an entire school year, accomplished nothing, and killed my daughter's love for learning. Granted, part of the misery could have been the general misery of 7th grade and entering the teenage years, but I would never recommend the program.

We had previously completed four years of Foundations/Essentials. So, my daughter did have a background on how CC works going into Challenge A. There were things I disliked about the lower levels, but I generally felt the pros outweighed the cons. I'm hard pressed to find any pros to challenge.

 

This is part of my struggle as well.  Every week I want to withdraw but then I Wonder if that would be the best solution. 

[jens2sons]

On 6/28/2019 at 10:03 AM, Forgiven said:

Your concerns sound like the some of the reasons we stopped doing Classical Conversations. It is way too rushed, they don't focus enough on math, so most of the kids put it to the side and fall way behind, and I truly don't believe all the tutors (directors for Challenge levels) are properly equipped to be leading the classes.

My DD did CH A, B, and 1. It was CH1 that broke us. We left, and are so glad we did. We get so much more done now, and we are free to do it at our own pace. My kids actually have the time to think about what they're learning instead of stuffing and cramming just so they can be a part of the the conversations on community day. It really was a waste of time and money, and I wish we never went down that road. 😞

All three of my kids are challenge age this year. My DS1 did CHA in a community. He does so much better on his own. He hated doing his work when he knew he had to go to a class and talk about it with his peers, who, unfortunately were all elitists. That was a vibe I was so glad to get away from -- the elitists. Sorry, I digress...

All that to say, your concerns are legitimate. 😉

 

Thank you for sharing - seriously.  Please pray for me.  

[Another Lynn]

7 hours ago, jens2sons said:

 

This is part of my struggle as well.  Every week I want to withdraw but then I Wonder if that would be the best solution. 

 

7 hours ago, jens2sons said:

 

Thank you for sharing - seriously.  Please pray for me.  

 

Two of my 5 kids did Challenge A.  It was a good fit for one (but SO much work!) and an okay-ish fit for the other.  For him, we dropped Latin by 2nd semester and did some English grammar review instead.  The peer/friend group was really good for both of them, but we eventually found that somewhere else (as well as keeping in touch with CC friends).  If your dc is unhappy or struggling, I would not hesitate to pull him out.  There are so many things you can do for 7th grade and it's fine.  There's no need to bang your head against a wall for a whole year or even a whole semester.  If you need outside accountability, why not try a mix of outsourcing and classes at home.  Do you have other outsourcing options locally?  If not, try a 1 semester online class in the spring (take a look at Well Trained Mind Academy).  Or find an online self-paced option for a class if it's too late to enroll in a live class.  But don't put everything online.  Mix it up a little.  You know the hive is always glad to give suggestions if you need planning help!!!  There's nothing wrong with cutting back to the 3 Rs and going interest led on history and science!    

[jens2sons]

On 9/30/2019 at 4:31 AM, Another Lynn said:

 

 

Two of my 5 kids did Challenge A.  It was a good fit for one (but SO much work!) and an okay-ish fit for the other.  For him, we dropped Latin by 2nd semester and did some English grammar review instead.  The peer/friend group was really good for both of them, but we eventually found that somewhere else (as well as keeping in touch with CC friends).  If your dc is unhappy or struggling, I would not hesitate to pull him out.  There are so many things you can do for 7th grade and it's fine.  There's no need to bang your head against a wall for a whole year or even a whole semester.  If you need outside accountability, why not try a mix of outsourcing and classes at home.  Do you have other outsourcing options locally?  If not, try a 1 semester online class in the spring (take a look at Well Trained Mind Academy).  Or find an online self-paced option for a class if it's too late to enroll in a live class.  But don't put everything online.  Mix it up a little.  You know the hive is always glad to give suggestions if you need planning help!!!  There's nothing wrong with cutting back to the 3 Rs and going interest led on history and science!    

 

English Grammar definitely needs to be reviewed.  What did you use for this?  

[Another Lynn]

1 hour ago, jens2sons said:

 

English Grammar definitely needs to be reviewed.  What did you use for this?  

We weren’t terribly consistent because of the workload (even without Latin), but we used JAG for a bit. (Junior Analytical Grammar).