We got our results and diagnosis - would love curriculum recs

[Runningmom80]

35 minutes ago, Mainer said:

I originally got ineterested in dyslexia after working for a summer at a Lindamood-Bell summer tutoring program. I had never thought about it, or teaching, before. Totally changed my life!

So, yes, I'd suggest going into literacy intervention as a career. It's lots of fun, and very needed!  Lots of states are starting to pass laws about dyslexia screening and/or the type of interventions to be used, so you would be in demand. Depending on where you are, you could be in high demand.

 

Very cool! Their stuff really does look great. I’m nervous about the warning Susan Barton gave that “you need to take the training” to implement LIPS because it’s close to 1k. (It does come with the LIPS kit but still!)

[Runningmom80]

Just now, Lecka said:

If you are thinking about Barton, honestly I would email her before buying anything.  

I don’t even know if you need to do Lips or FIS.  I would see what she says about that.

If you don’t need to do something — you really don’t need to do it.  

If you have concerns and want to ask beyond doing the student screening — I think it is a good thing to do.  

A lot of kids do not need Lips or FIS and that is okay, too.  

 

Good thinking! I will email her and see what she says.

[Lecka]

Responding to your post — check the Barton student screening.  If it is passed you are supposed to be able to start with Barton level 1.  

But you may not even need Barton level 1 because of using AAS and doing Montessori.  You have done those things.  You might even ask for the post-tests for a placement level, if you are looking strongly at Barton.  

You don’t have to re-do things if she does already have them.  The thing is Lips and Barton 1 overlap (this is my understanding) so you could possibly still want to do Lips if you wanted to use it farther instead of changing to Barton.  It can depend what you want to do. 

But she does have prior background and iirc her scores are not that low — she might start higher in Barton if you want to do Barton.  

It is one of those hard things to figure out at first!

But I think you can email Susan Barton for sure.  

[Lecka]

Here is my take on Lips..... there is no way I could do it, because I don’t always recognize my kids’ speech errors because I am so used to them.  And then it is a lot harder too if kids are having articulation issues.  

A lot of kids might be having articulation issues and this makes it just a harder thing to do.  

For kids who are only using it for telling apart a few sounds, I can see it being easier to use.  

But I think a lot of people using it are going to have kids with articulation errors.  It’s a program that can be used for articulation also.  

That is my opinion.  

I think that advice is given for the people who would really have a hard time using it, but that it doesn’t apply to everyone.  

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

Ok, the Lindamood-Bell stuff looks amazing. It's so bleeping expensive!  I know SB recommends LIPS. Seeing Stars talks about the orthography which the SLP said DD needs.

One, it's not expensive relative to what you're getting. Therapists buy this and then charge $80-120 an hour to work with people, so it's priced appropriately. You'd be paying for it with just a couple hours of intervention tutoring. Also you can look on ebay. 

She failed the discrimination portion, so you need to start with LIPS or FIS. You don't know that your dd is struggling with visualization, which is what Seeing Stars addresses. My ds has NO issues with visualization. Cross that bridge later or simply try her out with visualization and see what happens. It's an important skill, sure, but it's such a can of worms (affected by developmental vision, brain structure, other issues) that it's really a rabbit trail and not the point here.

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

ETA: FIS looks much easier to implement so I will probably go with that. Then to Barton and then what comes after Barton? (I just want to look at all the possibilities!)

You're cracking me up. Yes, FIS is open and go. LIPS is a therapy tool for therapists, so it's a concept with loose scripting. You can make it become as powerful as you need. I integrated it with the very hands-on speech therapy methodology my ds was getting, and it was AMAZING. We haven't had a lot of feedback here about FIS. I suspect the authors are people who were using Barton who wanted to create something open and go. That's going to have its own issues for certain users, like me, because it means they're not bringing that professional level of knowledge that answers the what ifs for more complicated situations. They can't copy LIPS either due to copyright, I would think/hope. So FIS will be fine, just not the end-all. Just like Barton is fine (open and go intervention), just not the end-all. The more complex the situation, the more you need to understand the theory to be able to apply it creatively to challenging situations. But what is the likelihood of that being you? Nill. You said language delay but not articulation delay, right? So you can go either way. It's more just personality and how you want to roll. most 

2 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

ETAA: I'm seriously considering Wilson training. I originally put my kids in school so I could go back to school to either get an MA in library sciences or become a literary specialist. This seems like a little stepping stone. My DD will need help in the meantime of course. I'm not sure why I'm telling you all this, maybe I'm curious if these diagnosis gave anyone else crazy ideas? I might have eaten too much candy...

I love the enthusiasm!!! Yes, on the candy, but who says it can't bring out our best ideas? LOL So here's the thing. Are YOU wanting to intervene for your dd or are  you wanting to pay someone ELSE to do it? Just decide. There's not a right or wrong. But if YOU want to do it, then you've got a time issue. In that case, Barton would be the most logical. Unless you've got a Wilson training option within the next *month* I would proceded with your LIPS/FIS and on into something you can make happen expeditiously. 

It's more important that it get done than which program it is. TRULY. It's more important that you put the time in and work intensively than it is which program you use. Barton would be idiot-proof for you and allow you to put your energy into getting it done. When people do really custom OG-type intervention, they're generating word lists, working in a custom way. Does your dd need that, or does Barton straight fit her? Why reinvent the wheel? There are good reasons to reinvent the wheel, absolutely. My ds needed some customization. Kids with language disabilities who aren't understanding the reading models in Barton need customization. Kids who are much older or younger than target or just plain not enjoying it need customization. Kids who have a crazy high IQ who could maybe learn at a different pace could benefit from customization. There are ways around all that, sure. Barton was pretty obvious to me because I spent so long doing SWR/WRTR/AAS with my dd. It probably will be to you too. But does your dd need *custom* or can she just use Barton (prescripted) and be fine? Her vocabulary was good and you *think* her narrative language is good. We would have every hope she would be in the category of kids who, with intervention, just take off, have comprehension, and don't have issues. She may be a non-complex presentation like that.

Barton would buy you some *time* while waiting for training for a more open-ended approach. You could do Barton 1-4 and at that point have enough experience to know whether you'd want to do this with other kids. By then you'd be to summer and able to pick up training. Around here it's pretty common to find places doing summer training, like 4 weeks of intensive or something. 

Ok, now just my mom talk. My ds has pretty extensive needs. I'm like you, where I'm like this is so amazing, I could do this with other kids! My ds eats up my time and energy. By the time I sort through what he needs, prep things, and go to the gym, I'm DONE. There's literally nothing left. So if *I* were working with someone else, I would be sacrificing time I *need* to be putting into my ds. But my ds has significant support needs. Like I'm literally reading aloud to him several hours a day and he needs academics and interoception and and and.  It takes a lot to keep him calm, stable, interactive. If he has more than a day where someone is not meeting that need, he regresses and begins stimming and takes a lot of work to get back. I call it falling into the aut.

So I consider my time as valuable as any therapist, and I treat it that way. If the people he sees are billing at $125 and $140 an hour (yes), then that's what I'm worth. 

The experience you get my teaching your own dc is invaluable. Whether you have wiggle room to do that with MORE kids will depend on the dc. I can totally see scenarios where it would work and be an awesome thing on the side for you or a thing you prepare to do later. Professional training is never wasted!! I would encourage you to get that bigger picture training, if you can affordably, simply because it will make you a better teacher. However for me, right now I don't have it to give to anyone else. I'm not sure whether I would after I'm done with him. I really don't know. I'm 42, so I'll be 50+ when he's transferring on to something else. I've looked into some credentialing, yes. The trick with credentials in our state is that  you need a credential that allows you to bill the disability scholarship system. Or you could say getting a job, but I doubt I'd want to work in a school or for someone, oy. So just a certificate, at least in our state, is only useful if you have the credentials to allow you to bill a certain way. I found a masters program that interested me, but who knows. Our behaviorist says my life will change in a few years and suddenly swaths of time and energy will open up, lol. For now I'm in the intensive stage.

Anyways, that was a ramble to say I've thought the same thing, do what you feel up to but don't let it hold you back now. Most of the intervention training on the grad level is so suspiciously unhelpful that it won't be as enlightening as you think. It's more a hurdle than anything and there's a lot of stuff that will leave you shaking your head. Here's the thing. They have to learn to teach a population. I only have to teach ONE. So I'm gonna become an expert on my ONE, because frankly I haven't met any of these generalists who know the answers to my ONE.

[PeterPan]

32 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Even I had a hard time telling the difference on one of the ones she missed.

Ok, this is clearly bugging you. One, did you take the tutor screening? Just saying. Two, where are you from? I don't recall Barton being hard to understand. Does she speak with an accent very different from yours? Like are you from the South and pronouncing your vowels a certain way or adding /r/ or something?

I think you need to do the tutor screening yourself. I don't know what's going on here, but you've mentioned it several times now. I recall thinking her presentation was pretty fair, so I'm wondering what the explanation is on this.

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

There was part of me wondering if we could just re study the AAS phonograms but then I felt like maybe it wasn’t enough.

Ok, I'm not a polite enough person, but I see no point in doing the same thing again when you've done it for like 4 years. You need to step it up with evidence-based practices that are multi-sensory. A STRONG TOOL makes this easy. You bring in the strong tool, it clicks, and she's like OH. You're probably going to find something else is going on. Did you say you're working on getting her into an audiologist? And she had a language delay that was unexplained? 

I really, really, really, REALLY like Attention Good Listeners by DeGaetano. It's simple and it KICKS BUTT. You can google around for it and find a stray copy. Might clear up whatever funky discrimination issues are going on right now. DeGaetano is an SLP. Again, when you want to dig in, you're looking for therapy materials. If you pay some money, use the materials, sell them, it's just a nothing. These are easily fixable problems when you finally get the right tools.

[PeterPan]

34 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Good thinking! I will email her and see what she says.

You can call her. She's in CA and she'll actually answer the phone. She's a lovely person and she gave me some good advice when I was getting started. Definitely consider calling.

[Runningmom80]

6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, this is clearly bugging you. One, did you take the tutor screening? Just saying. Two, where are you from? I don't recall Barton being hard to understand. Does she speak with an accent very different from yours? Like are you from the South and pronouncing your vowels a certain way or adding /r/ or something?

I think you need to do the tutor screening yourself. I don't know what's going on here, but you've mentioned it several times now. I recall thinking her presentation was pretty fair, so I'm wondering what the explanation is on this.

 

I did take the tutor screening. If she would have missed it by more than one I’d just suck it up and do one of the sound programs. (And I’m probably going to do that anyways because like I said, I don’t want to skip something important.)

did I mention it several times? I know I mentioned it one other time, maybe I mentioned it more as a I was answering people. I’m wordy and tend to repeat myself so there’s that.

[PeterPan]

Well you can call Barton and talk with her tomorrow or email her AND call, hehe. She's been really helpful to me on the occasions I've written. I think we were connecting other dots you had mentioned in this thread, so that's another thing, to realize how those pieces are interconnecting.

Yes, I'm of the go farther faster by building a stronger foundation. We had a poster who used to post a lot who went back and did LIPS *after* multiple levels of Barton. It was this nagging weakness as she went forward, and going back helped. If you hired a tutor, they wouldn't do it so separately and sequentially. They might work on the discrimination and plow forward exactly where she is. That's the weakness of a scripted system, that you basically have to start at the beginning and work forward because you don't have that knowledge to customize. So it just depends on what you want. No matter what, you'll nail it.

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

tend to repeat myself

Me too, lol. But I also repeat myself because things are bugging me. I think you're totally reasonable to want to know if you need to do something. I've dumped so much money into intervention materials that the price of one thing starts to look small. It's crazy. And therapy, oh my. Have you found who you'd want for a tutor? You're going to run into the same issue, and it would be interesting for you to visit them and see how each rolls. Some tutors are very custom, and some are Barton tutors, whatever tutors, and they do that system. 

[Runningmom80]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well you can call Barton and talk with her tomorrow or email her AND call, hehe. She's been really helpful to me on the occasions I've written. I think we were connecting other dots you had mentioned in this thread, so that's another thing, to realize how those pieces are interconnecting.

Yes, I'm of the go farther faster by building a stronger foundation. We had a poster who used to post a lot who went back and did LIPS *after* multiple levels of Barton. It was this nagging weakness as she went forward, and going back helped. If you hired a tutor, they wouldn't do it so separately and sequentially. They might work on the discrimination and plow forward exactly where she is. That's the weakness of a scripted system, that you basically have to start at the beginning and work forward because you don't have that knowledge to customize. So it just depends on what you want. No matter what, you'll nail it.

 

Yeah i haven’t decided yet if im going to do this or if a tutor is, I’m just gathering the information to make a decision. One thought DH and I had was to get a tutor for the summer and then for me to take over but I don’t know how that would work with something like Barton. Maybe I’d call her and we’d start somewhere in the middle, maybe the tutor could help me, I’m not sure. 

I’m still in the information gathering part and have yet to actually talk to a tutor. 

But yes going back to what you are saying, especially if I’m doing this myself I’d like to make sure that we didn’t skip a step and I can step away from the AAS tiles. (Which no one in this house likes anyways!)

[Runningmom80]

Ps in case anyone would like a face/outfit with a dysgraphia diagnosis, she just came in to remind me not to take life so seriously. 

(PS I know not to label her, this is my attempt at a joke!)

Edited April 22, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Lecka]

Oh, she is adorable!!!!!!!!

[Runningmom80]

She’s a character!

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Ps in case anyone would like a face/outfit with a dysgraphia diagnosis

She's adorable!!! And so creative!!

[Runningmom80]

38 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

One, it's not expensive relative to what you're getting. Therapists buy this and then charge $80-120 an hour to work with people, so it's priced appropriately. You'd be paying for it with just a couple hours of intervention tutoring. Also you can look on ebay. 

She failed the discrimination portion, so you need to start with LIPS or FIS. You don't know that your dd is struggling with visualization, which is what Seeing Stars addresses. My ds has NO issues with visualization. Cross that bridge later or simply try her out with visualization and see what happens. It's an important skill, sure, but it's such a can of worms (affected by developmental vision, brain structure, other issues) that it's really a rabbit trail and not the point here.

You're cracking me up. Yes, FIS is open and go. LIPS is a therapy tool for therapists, so it's a concept with loose scripting. You can make it become as powerful as you need. I integrated it with the very hands-on speech therapy methodology my ds was getting, and it was AMAZING. We haven't had a lot of feedback here about FIS. I suspect the authors are people who were using Barton who wanted to create something open and go. That's going to have its own issues for certain users, like me, because it means they're not bringing that professional level of knowledge that answers the what ifs for more complicated situations. They can't copy LIPS either due to copyright, I would think/hope. So FIS will be fine, just not the end-all. Just like Barton is fine (open and go intervention), just not the end-all. The more complex the situation, the more you need to understand the theory to be able to apply it creatively to challenging situations. But what is the likelihood of that being you? Nill. You said language delay but not articulation delay, right? So you can go either way. It's more just personality and how you want to roll. most 

I love the enthusiasm!!! Yes, on the candy, but who says it can't bring out our best ideas? LOL So here's the thing. Are YOU wanting to intervene for your dd or are  you wanting to pay someone ELSE to do it? Just decide. There's not a right or wrong. But if YOU want to do it, then you've got a time issue. In that case, Barton would be the most logical. Unless you've got a Wilson training option within the next *month* I would proceded with your LIPS/FIS and on into something you can make happen expeditiously. 

It's more important that it get done than which program it is. TRULY. It's more important that you put the time in and work intensively than it is which program you use. Barton would be idiot-proof for you and allow you to put your energy into getting it done. When people do really custom OG-type intervention, they're generating word lists, working in a custom way. Does your dd need that, or does Barton straight fit her? Why reinvent the wheel? There are good reasons to reinvent the wheel, absolutely. My ds needed some customization. Kids with language disabilities who aren't understanding the reading models in Barton need customization. Kids who are much older or younger than target or just plain not enjoying it need customization. Kids who have a crazy high IQ who could maybe learn at a different pace could benefit from customization. There are ways around all that, sure. Barton was pretty obvious to me because I spent so long doing SWR/WRTR/AAS with my dd. It probably will be to you too. But does your dd need *custom* or can she just use Barton (prescripted) and be fine? Her vocabulary was good and you *think* her narrative language is good. We would have every hope she would be in the category of kids who, with intervention, just take off, have comprehension, and don't have issues. She may be a non-complex presentation like that.

Barton would buy you some *time* while waiting for training for a more open-ended approach. You could do Barton 1-4 and at that point have enough experience to know whether you'd want to do this with other kids. By then you'd be to summer and able to pick up training. Around here it's pretty common to find places doing summer training, like 4 weeks of intensive or something. 

Ok, now just my mom talk. My ds has pretty extensive needs. I'm like you, where I'm like this is so amazing, I could do this with other kids! My ds eats up my time and energy. By the time I sort through what he needs, prep things, and go to the gym, I'm DONE. There's literally nothing left. So if *I* were working with someone else, I would be sacrificing time I *need* to be putting into my ds. But my ds has significant support needs. Like I'm literally reading aloud to him several hours a day and he needs academics and interoception and and and.  It takes a lot to keep him calm, stable, interactive. If he has more than a day where someone is not meeting that need, he regresses and begins stimming and takes a lot of work to get back. I call it falling into the aut.

So I consider my time as valuable as any therapist, and I treat it that way. If the people he sees are billing at $125 and $140 an hour (yes), then that's what I'm worth. 

The experience you get my teaching your own dc is invaluable. Whether you have wiggle room to do that with MORE kids will depend on the dc. I can totally see scenarios where it would work and be an awesome thing on the side for you or a thing you prepare to do later. Professional training is never wasted!! I would encourage you to get that bigger picture training, if you can affordably, simply because it will make you a better teacher. However for me, right now I don't have it to give to anyone else. I'm not sure whether I would after I'm done with him. I really don't know. I'm 42, so I'll be 50+ when he's transferring on to something else. I've looked into some credentialing, yes. The trick with credentials in our state is that  you need a credential that allows you to bill the disability scholarship system. Or you could say getting a job, but I doubt I'd want to work in a school or for someone, oy. So just a certificate, at least in our state, is only useful if you have the credentials to allow you to bill a certain way. I found a masters program that interested me, but who knows. Our behaviorist says my life will change in a few years and suddenly swaths of time and energy will open up, lol. For now I'm in the intensive stage.

Anyways, that was a ramble to say I've thought the same thing, do what you feel up to but don't let it hold you back now. Most of the intervention training on the grad level is so suspiciously unhelpful that it won't be as enlightening as you think. It's more a hurdle than anything and there's a lot of stuff that will leave you shaking your head. Here's the thing. They have to learn to teach a population. I only have to teach ONE. So I'm gonna become an expert on my ONE, because frankly I haven't met any of these generalists who know the answers to my ONE.

 

Yes, this is a very good point and also why I’m asking if I’m crazy! I learned the hard way that it is important to consider what I will have left of me after working with DD and my other 2. 

 

I’ve totally derailed this thread at this point!

[PeterPan]

I think if you work with a tutor you're going to have to look at how they roll. See your tutor options and see if there's a price spread. Barton is training/certifying tutors, and to me (no offense to anyone intended) they're you're lower tier. They're doing a scripted product straight, the same thing you could do, and there's a bunch they're not qualified (if Barton's training is their only training) to do. They're not going to address the writing piece (organization). They're not qualified to address syntax or language issues. They're not able to be flexible and say let's bring this earlier piece while working on this other piece. That would all be custom.

So you kind of have a balance on price there. Like in our area, you can find random parents, nice people with some experience, who will tutor, and they're maybe $15-30 an hour. You want OG with a very experienced person (MEd, SLP, etc.) and you're $60-80. Want an SLP who hangs out their shingle saying literacy and it can be even higher ($100+). And we're not an expensive area, more an average area.

So you're balancing compliance and need for customization and cost. I probably would not pay money for non-custom intervention because you could do that yourself. And if compliance is an issue, then I think a custom tutor who can balance the issues of the giftedness and the disability by meeting her where she is with custom lessons becomes important. So if you can afford customized tutoring, then it's worth paying for. I would do that at least 3-4 days a week.

I think a kid can be really patient with less than perfect tutoring when it's a parent. I think she'll know you're trying. I think you can get things to work. I flexed Barton a bit and you could too. Remember too you can start and then go to a tutor of any kind. There won't be contradictions. The systems are so similar that she could slide into anyone's system easily so long as it's some kind of OG-derived program. 

If you're enthusiastic and have the time and want to do it, do it! It's kind of fun and hair-pulling at the same time. It's intellectually stimulating. If you have the time and KNOW you'll do it and that nothing will distract you, you can do it, yes. And if you find a fabulous tutor and want to pay, that's fine too. In our area that would be at least $60 an hour so $240-300 a week so $1000-1200 a month. 

Here's the other thing I balance when I think through therapies, and this is just me. If I drive and say it's 20 minutes, we have to be early, blah blah, we lost basically 2 hours. For us drives are farther, so I lose more like 2 1/2-3 hours. So basically the person has to do BETTER than I would do in 3 hours. So I might not be stellar, but if I work with my ds for 2-3 hours, did I get basically to the same place? It really just depends. It's just another way to think through it. If you KNOW you'll have that time and that nothing will interrupt it, it's another way to think through it. For a while I had some intervention needs for my ds, and I would have been driving all over creation. Finally I was like fine, I'll do it because 1 hour with them was not trumping 3 hours with me.

It will be interesting to see what you find as tutor options! My ds was more complex with his speech problems and ASD, so I was factoring in time lost if they failed. I also wasn't willing to have someone else teaching him to write, because I felt they weren't prepared to help him LOVE the topic along the say. I've actually had that happen where someone did something with him and killed the topic. Makes you kind of picky who does stuff. But if you find a gem, that can really sway your thinking. If you find a gem AND you have the money, that will be good to have that option.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Runningmom80 said:

what I will have left of me after working with DD and my other 2. 

How much do you want to work with her daily? People are funny. I talked with someone who was like nope, 45 minutes is it, we never do more because ELA should not take over life even if there's a disability. Fine, but I'm gonna keep right on working 3 hours a day on ELA, lol. 

The other balancing thing will be the drive. So your one hour of intervention turns into at least 2 hours away unless you have someone (Granny, someone) to do that driving for you. So then we get back to that equation of are you with Barton in 2 hours as good as that tutor in 1 hour? Maybe, dunno. That would vary. If you aren't teaching the other kids, it won't matter.

Those good tutors are booking for summer right now. You might wanna pick that person while you think so you have the spot and the option. Guaranteed they'll get busy if they're good.

[Runningmom80]

That is something to consider. Plus we could be looking at more VT or OT which is more driving. 

 

[PeterPan]

Yeah, btdt, lol. Break it in chunks. I was given the advice years ago never to do more than 2 therapies at the same time. I'm not exactly one to follow advice, but I will say that when we get over that amount for out of the house therapies our lives start to feel chaotic. And that's not with any other kids we're dragging around or disrupting. 

So don't feel like you have to do 3 or 4 things just because you could in theory. Ruthlessly prioritize, triage, and stagger.

[Runningmom80]

44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I think if you work with a tutor you're going to have to look at how they roll. See your tutor options and see if there's a price spread. Barton is training/certifying tutors, and to me (no offense to anyone intended) they're you're lower tier. They're doing a scripted product straight, the same thing you could do, and there's a bunch they're not qualified (if Barton's training is their only training) to do. They're not going to address the writing piece (organization). They're not qualified to address syntax or language issues. They're not able to be flexible and say let's bring this earlier piece while working on this other piece. That would all be custom.

So you kind of have a balance on price there. Like in our area, you can find random parents, nice people with some experience, who will tutor, and they're maybe $15-30 an hour. You want OG with a very experienced person (MEd, SLP, etc.) and you're $60-80. Want an SLP who hangs out their shingle saying literacy and it can be even higher ($100+). And we're not an expensive area, more an average area.

So you're balancing compliance and need for customization and cost. I probably would not pay money for non-custom intervention because you could do that yourself. And if compliance is an issue, then I think a custom tutor who can balance the issues of the giftedness and the disability by meeting her where she is with custom lessons becomes important. So if you can afford customized tutoring, then it's worth paying for. I would do that at least 3-4 days a week.

I think a kid can be really patient with less than perfect tutoring when it's a parent. I think she'll know you're trying. I think you can get things to work. I flexed Barton a bit and you could too. Remember too you can start and then go to a tutor of any kind. There won't be contradictions. The systems are so similar that she could slide into anyone's system easily so long as it's some kind of OG-derived program. 

If you're enthusiastic and have the time and want to do it, do it! It's kind of fun and hair-pulling at the same time. It's intellectually stimulating. If you have the time and KNOW you'll do it and that nothing will distract you, you can do it, yes. And if you find a fabulous tutor and want to pay, that's fine too. In our area that would be at least $60 an hour so $240-300 a week so $1000-1200 a month. 

Here's the other thing I balance when I think through therapies, and this is just me. If I drive and say it's 20 minutes, we have to be early, blah blah, we lost basically 2 hours. For us drives are farther, so I lose more like 2 1/2-3 hours. So basically the person has to do BETTER than I would do in 3 hours. So I might not be stellar, but if I work with my ds for 2-3 hours, did I get basically to the same place? It really just depends. It's just another way to think through it. If you KNOW you'll have that time and that nothing will interrupt it, it's another way to think through it. For a while I had some intervention needs for my ds, and I would have been driving all over creation. Finally I was like fine, I'll do it because 1 hour with them was not trumping 3 hours with me.

It will be interesting to see what you find as tutor options! My ds was more complex with his speech problems and ASD, so I was factoring in time lost if they failed. I also wasn't willing to have someone else teaching him to write, because I felt they weren't prepared to help him LOVE the topic along the say. I've actually had that happen where someone did something with him and killed the topic. Makes you kind of picky who does stuff. But if you find a gem, that can really sway your thinking. If you find a gem AND you have the money, that will be good to have that option.

 I missed this post, this is all good stuff. I agree it wouldn’t be worth it to pay someone for Barton, when I could do it myself. I’m starting to lean that way I think because A. She’s not a severe case and B. Her comprehension is very good, so that wouldn’t be a worry.

My only concern is the SLP mentioned finding someone who could do the spelling and the written expression together, but perhaps an OT could help us as well. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Runningmom80 said:

spelling and the written expression together,

As far as the writing, it's such an interesting topic. There's a train of thought in intervention that is merging with what we already knew in the classical community. So like when you look at MW/SGM and their emphasis on developing narrative language and how narrative transfers to expository writing, it's going to look very familiar!! It might be very natural to you and then what remains is 1) getting explicit materials (SGM/MW/Thememaker) and 2) amping up her tech so she can actually get it out. Also look at Writing Revolution.

Well keep us posted! 

[Runningmom80]

Another maybe not smart question, if I were to go with SPELL links or  Wilson instead of Barton, would we still need to do LIPS or  FIS? I'm guessing yes, but I don't see any screeners on those websites so I wonder if it's included. I'm searching the sites but figured you smart ladies would probably know.

[Kanin]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

One, it's not expensive relative to what you're getting. Therapists buy this and then charge $80-120 an hour to work with people, so it's priced appropriately. You'd be paying for it with just a couple hours of intervention tutoring. Also you can look on ebay. 

She failed the discrimination portion, so you need to start with LIPS or FIS. You don't know that your dd is struggling with visualization, which is what Seeing Stars addresses. My ds has NO issues with visualization. Cross that bridge later or simply try her out with visualization and see what happens. It's an important skill, sure, but it's such a can of worms (affected by developmental vision, brain structure, other issues) that it's really a rabbit trail and not the point here.

Agreed. And LiPS can be used for much more than sound discrimination - spelling, reading, it's all in there. The lessons work on all of those at the same time. The beginning part of the program uses pictures of mouths, and you practice spelling/reading/making changes to words with those, and then you move to using letter tiles, but using the same terminology from earlier. When I do LiPS, even once we switch to letter tiles, I still bring out the mouth pictures frequently.

[Kanin]

10 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

Another maybe not smart question, if I were to go with SPELL links or  Wilson instead of Barton, would we still need to do LIPS or  FIS? I'm guessing yes, but I don't see any screeners on those websites so I wonder if it's included. I'm searching the sites but figured you smart ladies would probably know.

Yes, because Wilson (and Spell links, I assume) don't focus on phonemic awareness. You can do them both at the same time, but they're different. 

LiPS is meant to last for a period of weeks to months, not forever. If you're considering a career in this area, it would be a worthwhile investment.

Of course, if it would throw the family budget under the bus, that's a different consideration. 

[Runningmom80]

4 minutes ago, Mainer said:

Yes, because Wilson (and Spell links, I assume) don't focus on phonemic awareness. You can do them both at the same time, but they're different. 

LiPS is meant to last for a period of weeks to months, not forever. If you're considering a career in this area, it would be a worthwhile investment.

Of course, if it would throw the family budget under the bus, that's a different consideration. 

 

That's what I thought. Thank you!

[Lecka]

I think Wilson does have phonemic awareness.  

Imo — everything for dyslexia will have phonemic awareness.  

Lips/FIS just start at a lower level.  

I hear different wording but with phonological awareness and phonemic awareness, there are lists of skills, and fewer kids need to work on  the very earliest skills (like in Lips/FIS) while more kids need to work on the skills that are still early but  are not the very earliest.  

You can see lists of skills for this.  You can see what skills different programs start with and cover.  

Here is the thing though — if the skill is covered a certain way and you practice it and the child does not learn it — then you need different/more.

Ime because of my son being in speech therapy, I knew from that which sounds he had trouble with.  It was all his speech sounds.  

IMO (But I don’t know how true this is) kids may only have a few sounds they are fuzzy with, or they may have a lot.  

But it looks like:  they really can’t tell apart or identity some sounds.  

But then many kids are only a little fuzzy and can start with phonemic awareness and pick it up as part of doing phonemic awareness (starting where programs usually start).  

And then some kids need to do it specifically, they won’t pick it up from going through other things.  

 

[Lecka]

There are sounds that can be called minimal pairs, that are produced very similarly.  There are sounds from speech production that are produced almost the same way.  These are ones that can be easily confused for consonants.

I know quite a bit about consonants between my two sons, but neither of them had trouble with vowels, so I really don’t know about vowels.  

I know about what they have done 😉. 

For a harder sound discrimination — for example, cold and colt.  To tell apart the d and t at the end of a word and with an l blend — that would be *really* hard for my son.  That is two words that are only one letter off.  That is the kind of thing that — a lot of kids could work on that with phonemic awareness and pick it up, and other kids would be lost if you didn’t actually work on d and t a lot.  

[Runningmom80]

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

As far as the writing, it's such an interesting topic. There's a train of thought in intervention that is merging with what we already knew in the classical community. So like when you look at MW/SGM and their emphasis on developing narrative language and how narrative transfers to expository writing, it's going to look very familiar!! It might be very natural to you and then what remains is 1) getting explicit materials (SGM/MW/Thememaker) and 2) amping up her tech so she can actually get it out. Also look at Writing Revolution.

Well keep us posted! 

 

I can't figure out what MW/SGM is. 🤦‍♀️

[Lecka]

Mindwings and Story Grammar Marker.  I recently got their autism program for my younger son.  

My other two kids would not need this, my older son I have mentioned in this thread would not need it.  It is things they pick up easily.  

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

I can't figure out what MW/SGM is. 🤦‍♀️

That's because we speak hidden languages.   Just playing with you. I mentioned it earlier in the thread. The lady behind Story Grammar Marker developed the materials while working in an autism school. So you have narrative language structuring techniques which they then extend to expository writing. If she has issues with structure in her writing (because of the dyslexia, EF, whatever), it can help. They have a ton of free stuff on the blog, including some really great organizers. They have a sample from Core of the Core that I really, really like. 

Yes, the autism kit extends the concepts to people with autism. But I think you were just talking dyslexia. There's lots of stuff like this available, but the logic on how they get this narrative to transfer to expository and make it explicit and hit all the kinds of expository writing you're wanting her to do is really sharp. 

This link has a tiny picture of the stages of narrative development and the expository structures https://mindwingconcepts.com/collections/elementary-school/products/discourse-and-thought-development-chart-wheel

And here's how they connect https://mindwingconcepts.com/collections/elementary-school/products/thememaker-expository-text-structures-poster-mini-poster 

If you're pretty deep into WTM, you might just go oh duh... The point is making it very explicit. Then you bring in your mindmapping software (Inspiration), prediction software (Ginger) and get it organized and get it out.

I think heathermomster used IEW, and that's fine too. Explicit instruction plus tech.

[Runningmom80]

Thank you! I'm not too deep into TWTM, so it may be good for us. (*I* would have done marvelous with TWTM but my kids are so all over the place I didn't  get very far before it became a loose inspiration for homeschooling in general rather than a guidebook.) 

 

We have an OT eval on Weds and 2 tutors who've told me they are already full for summer.

[PeterPan]

Just as a total aside, it would be unusual to have multiple kids and not have more with the same issue. Any other kids affected in your herd?

[Runningmom80]

28 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Just as a total aside, it would be unusual to have multiple kids and not have more with the same issue. Any other kids affected in your herd?

 

Her older brother did OT for fine motor. Her twin could have a touch of dysgraphia but if she was borderline there's no way he would be diagnosed. His would be more fine motor I would think, but he has nice writing because he is creative and kind of draws his letters (which I've read can be dysgraphia) He spells well and reads all the time which is so different from DD. She doesn't like to read. ETA: I think she actually does like to read, it just wears her out. She’s only read about 3 chapter books on her own. She has been picking up the Dork Diary books and I think it’s the font that allows her to read easier. (Which really convinces me more that there is dyslexia involved here, no matter how "slight") 

My oldest is the quirkiest, this process has convinced me to take him in for a full eval with an NP but we will be saving up for that for a while after all of this. lol. He's the kind of kid that probably could get along without a diagnosis but now I'm too curious. (His strengths are different, I see him as more NVLD)

Edited April 22, 2019 by Runningmom80

[PeterPan]

Yeah, kids sorta suck the money right out of you...

That NVLD will often go ASD under DSM5. 

And yes, absolutely she could have vision issues on top of the phonological processing. You already did VT, right? My dd started wearing bifocal contacts around 14 and is now in progressives. Some people just need a boost to help with that fatigue. 

The good part is, as you find good practitioners for one dc, you're shortening your learning curve with the rest. Doesn't sound like you're going to get a lot of re-use on Barton though.

[Runningmom80]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, kids sorta suck the money right out of you...

That NVLD will often go ASD under DSM5. 

And yes, absolutely she could have vision issues on top of the phonological processing. You already did VT, right? My dd started wearing bifocal contacts around 14 and is now in progressives. Some people just need a boost to help with that fatigue. 

The good part is, as you find good practitioners for one dc, you're shortening your learning curve with the rest. Doesn't sound like you're going to get a lot of re-use on Barton though.

 

Oh no, none of my kids will ever need the same things, that would be way too easy! 

[Runningmom80]

I sent the report to school and we have a meeting on Monday. Any tips for getting services for dysgraphia? I highly doubt they’ll give her OG instruction.

[Lecka]

Okay you have two separate things.

One is — services.  This means OT I think.  This can mean handwriting help, OT exercises, help with typing, and help (or advice/suggestions) for accommodations. 

Two is — accommodations.  This is things like special paper, less writing, oral answers, scribing.  

You have several things to think about.  

One, scores.  Will you have private OT scores?  Can you request an OT eval through school?  

Two, problems you are aware of from home.  Is your child stressed or frustrated.  Are you providing massive help at home.  Is your child having trouble with assignments.  

Three, problems the teacher is seeing at school. Do you have any idea if the teacher has been seeing problems?  Unfortunately teachers who don’t know as much about things will notice less, because they won’t be thinking “oh this could be because of this.”  They will think it more when they have had previous experience with students.  

I think try to read about qualifying conditions for an IEP.  Dysgraphia isn’t listed by name, I don’t know if that means it is an “OHI” or a “SLD.”  Can you call the person who gave you the diagnosis and ask this?  You can look at a book about IEPs from the library, there will be a section about qualifying for an IEP.

However — depending on various things — you may be looking for accommodations more than services.  I think this will depend on what OT testing shows.  

 

[Runningmom80]

30 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Okay you have two separate things.

One is — services.  This means OT I think.  This can mean handwriting help, OT exercises, help with typing, and help (or advice/suggestions) for accommodations. 

Two is — accommodations.  This is things like special paper, less writing, oral answers, scribing.  

You have several things to think about.  

One, scores.  Will you have private OT scores?  Can you request an OT eval through school?  

Two, problems you are aware of from home.  Is your child stressed or frustrated.  Are you providing massive help at home.  Is your child having trouble with assignments.  

Three, problems the teacher is seeing at school. Do you have any idea if the teacher has been seeing problems?  Unfortunately teachers who don’t know as much about things will notice less, because they won’t be thinking “oh this could be because of this.”  They will think it more when they have had previous experience with students.  

I think try to read about qualifying conditions for an IEP.  Dysgraphia isn’t listed by name, I don’t know if that means it is an “OHI” or a “SLD.”  Can you call the person who gave you the diagnosis and ask this?  You can look at a book about IEPs from the library, there will be a section about qualifying for an IEP.

However — depending on various things — you may be looking for accommodations more than services.  I think this will depend on what OT testing shows.  

 

 

In Feb we had conferences, She mentioned the dysgraphia due to DD not being able to write on the line, but blew off our spelling concerns as grade level.

Understood has dysgraphia listed as one of the 13 LD covered under IDEA, and our report lists it as SLD in written expression.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Runningmom80

[Runningmom80]

27 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

For dysgraphia services I showed samples from the past several years, including the teacher comments on the seatwork that indicated that the writing was not legible.  Every member of the current team claimed writing was fine at the meeting,  but that's not what was on the seatwork (ha ha, I didn't bring that point out).  Also showed state ELA test scores and commented that they had declined each year on the writing portion for the past four years, while the reading level was still well above grade level and the student complained that he didn't have enough time to finish the last year.  I showed notes copied from the board for past two years, none of which were complete as the kid ran out of time.  The OT agreed to measure writing speed vs legibility, and decided kid was 'low normal'...and there was no teacher that allowed enough time for a person with 'low normal' handwriting speed to copy everything legibly from the board...so we compromised. In return for not pressing for an IEP/504 accomodations were offered and I declined the remediation and did it myself.  I declined because the school had retired all the teachers who knew how to remediate, so hey, easier for me to remediate.  Remediation is just penmanship lessons.....this is very much dysteachia, but for us it was combined with vision...bifocals and no penmanship instruction after grade one dont result in fluent handwriting. Accomodations accepted: alphasmart clone, extra time on seatwork/tests/quizzes, scrap paper for math, oral quiz/portions of tests.   Kid already had been taught to keyboard, spelling had been remediated, and kid was doing his homework on PC whenever possible. Use wide rule paper and the pen/pencil that works for the grip ... but do pick ones that are allowed on state exams if possible and your state hasn't moved to all computer testing. 

 

This is my issue. She definitely needs phonics. (The teacher had said she was going to pull her aside when she notices spelling issues. But the girl literally misspells any time she writes.)

Our state has moved to computer testing. I'm so curious how she did on the essay portion! We won't find out until June. 

[PeterPan]

Yup, if you can prove the SLD writing is affecting her ability to access her education, then she gets either intervention or accommodations or both. I would think with the low VMI plus SLD you could argue for an IEP.

The first thing, when going through the IEP process, is to learn the steps of the process. This entire thing is won/lost in the very first meeting. For real. You make a written request, signed, dated, filed away for safe keeping. You have that first meeting and you make sure they are agreeing to eval every area you think is affected. After that, it's an unfolding process. 

NOLO has a good book. I got it through the library I think. 

[Lecka]

Okay — you have got a writing concern then.  Now ideally an OT would have some recommendation to make about this, whether that would be a therapy or using different paper (or whatever).  

I don’t know what exactly your private testing shows for her spelling.  If you have documentation showing it’s a problem, then there is that.  

Any teacher concern is good to have, though.

Take samples of her work to show her bad spelling.  Other people at the meeting will either think it seems like a problem, or they will agree with the classroom teacher.  

Keep in mind — what do you want — I doubt you would want her pulled out of her regular class to go have spelling.  If you want something like alternate assignments she can do in her same class — they might be willing to do that.  

At a certain point — what do you want?  

It is almost summer and you will be able to work with her at home, honestly as well as anything at school unless she is just severe in some way or they have an awesome program.  

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Runningmom80 said:

 

This is my issue. She definitely needs phonics. (The teacher had said she was going to pull her aside when she notices spelling issues. But the girl literally misspells any time she writes.)

Our state has moved to computer testing. I'm so curious how she did on the essay portion! We won't find out until June. 

Well what you think she needs and what the school says she has to have to access her education will be two different things. I would be surprised if they care about her spelling. Sure try, show the CTOPP scores, ask, tie it to a label or previous language issues or say she failed that screening tool, whatever. I'm just saying nobody at our ps gives a rip about ds' spelling. Tech, dictation, scribe, move on. They don't care. So long as that kid can get it out, they don't care.

[Lecka]

Well, I don’t agree with that statement about remediation only being penmanship lessons.  But it is fine to disagree.  

I think unless you have some really good school options you can probably do more working with her this summer, and not have to deal with her potentially feeling stupid or missing something fun.

My son missed getting a birthday cupcake one time because he was out of the classroom and the teacher didn’t set one out for him.  A total oversight and as an adult I don’t hold it against the teacher, but my son was really sad about it.  

Not to say — don’t do it.  But at a certain point I think, get accommodations and get what remediation you can, and then for other things you CAN do it and summer is coming soon 🙂

Edit:  I think depending on what you hear from evals etc — but a lot of things you can do, a lot of things don’t take an expert.  Maybe you really do need a tutor or something, it is possible, but it’s really possible you do not.  

You might also ask about a speech eval with phonemic awareness.  You can see what they say, maybe you can talk to another speech therapist through the school.  

Edited April 23, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

My older son had alternate spelling assignments through the end of elementary school.  He had his own packet (along with a couple of other kids) and practiced cursive with it.  That was through school but if you wanted your daughter to do homework for a program you do at home instead of classroom spelling, it is worth asking.  

I have gotten alternate assignments like that, I have gotten alternate homework.  It never hurts to ask.  When I have gotten that on my end, it has been from talking to the teacher, not going through an IEP meeting.  Other things I have gotten from going through IEP meetings.

And then some things I have not gotten!  

But anyway it doesn’t hurt to ask.  

If you do start a reading/spelling program with your daughter outside of school, it is worth talking to the teacher about seeing if you can reduce your daughter’s workload, though.  And see what they say.  

Edit:  if this would even be desirable.  It was desirable to me when it was appropriate and what I didn’t want him to do just was not appropriate for him. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/special-services/special-education-basics/conditions-covered-under-idea

From this it looks like dysgraphia qualifies as an sld.  Personally I do think it is worth it to read this section in an IEP book.  It might have info about severity levels to qualify.  Or just helpful info.

This is the dysgraphia website I was given by an OT:

http://handwriting-solutions.com/dysgraphia.asp

 

 

[Runningmom80]

So the thing is, I honestly don't think she's going to qualify for much, if anything. I already know they don't care about spelling. We are most likely going to homeschool her next year anyways because I would rather her do 5 days a week of Barton or Wilson at home than one 45 minute pull out a week (if we are lucky!). 

But, it feels like I should at least try. It didn't make sense to not send the report at all. (I did consider this!) I'm going to ask for what the SLP noted, that she needs "specific phonological instruction."  I'm not at all under any impression we will get it, but I still feel the need to do my due diligence and go in prepared. 

We have a private OT eval tomorrow but my meeting about that isn't until after the school meeting. 

 

[Runningmom80]

17 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My older son had alternate spelling assignments through the end of elementary school.  He had his own packet (along with a couple of other kids) and practiced cursive with it.  That was through school but if you wanted your daughter to do homework for a program you do at home instead of classroom spelling, it is worth asking.  

I have gotten alternate assignments like that, I have gotten alternate homework.  It never hurts to ask.  When I have gotten that on my end, it has been from talking to the teacher, not going through an IEP meeting.  Other things I have gotten from going through IEP meetings.

And then some things I have not gotten!  

But anyway it doesn’t hurt to ask.  

If you do start a reading/spelling program with your daughter outside of school, it is worth talking to the teacher about seeing if you can reduce your daughter’s workload, though.  And see what they say.  

Edit:  if this would even be desirable.  It was desirable to me when it was appropriate and what I didn’t want him to do just was not appropriate for him. 

 

I am going to ask for this! I don't see why they wouldn't work with us on that. 

I did find tutoring through our dyslexic school for $60 an hour. It's really making more sense for me to do a program with her so she gets the remediation M-F.

[Runningmom80]

Another question is, will they care at all about scatter in achievement testing? Or even below grade level on achievement testing? To me, the fact that she comprehends better than she decodes is proof she needs help decoding.