Fifth Grade Math Help

[hands-on-mama]

My daughter will be 11 in January and is in 5th grade. Math started getting hard for her in 3rd grade. She does not have dyslexia at all. She does have some severe math anxiety and possible signs of dycalculia though. She can’t seem to memorize her facts at all, so as you can imagine any math we are doing now is just getting harder and harder. I do allow her to use multiplication charts but I’m wonder if there’s a better way. We have tried a ton. We did mostly CLE in the early years after dabbling in Singapore. Singapore methods were just hard for her. After pushing with CLE, I finally gave in and tried Math Lessons for a Living Education. She has definitely come farther using this program than anything. It took away some of the anxiety. 

Here we are now with multiplication still not memorized two years later. We drill, play Reflex math, play Prodigy and copy the facts. It’s just not sticking. I recently started looking at MUS Gamma and am very much considering taking a break from MLFLE to let her at least go through Gamma and see if it will help the facts stick. It’s such an expensive move though. Any suggestions? Should I give MUS a go for this child???

[Ellie]

If you think she needs manipulatives, then use MUS, but don't do it otherwise.

You could just choose a good, basic math like Rod and Staff, and give her a multiplication chart.

[HomeAgain]

I always like to start with cheap and work my way up.  I'd probably look at these first:

Kate Snow's _____ Facts That Stick series.
rod play with Education Unboxed and/or Gattegno
a used copy of Hooked On Math.  Each book is sequential like MUS (multiplication starts with 0x, then 1x...and so on).  I'd keep using the rods

If none of these worked, then MUS.  But the benefit of the above is that you don't have to do them for a full year or even a full lesson each day.  You can split your time between the review and continued lessons if you wanted, or take a few weeks' break to work on them intensely and then go back to your regular math.

[hands-on-mama]

What about the issues with remembering the processes for larger problems? I can definitely work on the times tables, but we have been doing that for two years now.

[HomeAgain]

35 minutes ago, hands-on-mama said:

What about the issues with remembering the processes for larger problems? I can definitely work on the times tables, but we have been doing that for two years now.

In that case, I'd like to amend my previous stance. ?
How was she taught the times tables initially?  I'm not very familiar with MLFLE.  I only skimmed a few before realizing the series wasn't for us.  And I didn't look into CLE at all.  But if she didn't work out enough visually, then I can see how the facts feel like they're not related and aren't sitting.

We did use Gamma with oldest ds.  Our trip was a hop over from Saxon, which the sheer amount of work made him cry and feel like he was terrible at math.  Gamma was great, but it is a pricey investment which is why I suggested the cheaper resources first.  MUS did allow him to see bigger multiplication problems easily and I do use a lot of their techniques with my youngest (who is not using the program).  But I also worked on making additional supplements like colored graph paper where squares were tinted in repeated columns so he could keep numbers straight (87x6 is 7x6 + 80x6, not 7x6+8x6) and a Montessori checkerboard so he could see the regrouping in a different way.  MUS does work, but I didn't let it stand alone when he had trouble.  The strength of the program is using colors along with numbers to teach visually and keep that constant through 12 years of math.  I capitalized on that strength and found other activities that enhanced it.  But it's what sets it apart from many other programs - instead of different things for each unit or subtopic, everything is taught using the same manipulatives.

If she truly isn't getting it, and the larger problems are becoming an issue, then I don't think MUS will be a bad thing to try.  My inner tightwad just cringes at the cost before exhausting all other methods. ?  I still have my original price guide from 13 years ago and my, things have changed!

[TheAttachedMama]

My kids both have some learning challenges.   My daughter is dyslexic, and she also struggles with rote memorization (like multiplication facts.)   We tried old fashioned flashcards, she did xtra math every day for 4+ years, we did a year of "times tales" (trying to see if a more "right-brained" visual/story approach might help her), we did Rightstart games for multiplication, Kumon multiplication facts workbooks, dice games etc. etc.   In short, we worked on those times tables consistently, day after day, for YEARS using a variety of methods.   Nothing was working.  (And after that much work, it is a pretty clear sign that you are dealing with a learning disability!)   

SO-- I posted over on the simply classical forum on Memoria Press last year, and Cheryl Swope and the rest of the board members gave me some helpful advice:

They said that some kids with learning challenges need the facts to be presented in order for a long time.  One mistake is jumping to mixed practice too soon.   So the first thing we did was skip count by each number for a few weeks each several times per day.  Maybe skip count by 8's 8 times while we march around the table.   I would do this until they got really, really quick trying to make it a game.  (faster and faster)  Then, after they could skip count REALLY fast (which took a lot longer than you would think), I would then have them recite their math facts as fast as they could (in order) using flashcards so they would get visual and auditory input.   Later on in the day, I would have them do math copywork writing their facts (in order) and then we moved to math facts tests (in order).   And we did that for a long, long, long time until the facts (in order) became fairly easy for all of the numbers 1-10 working on one number at a time (3*1, 3*2, 3*3, etc.)   Only then, did I start to do them out of order....and then we practiced that with flashcards, copywork, and drills for a long, long, long time.   

What works with one child, may not work for every child.    So I always say to trust your instinct and go with that!   

 

 

[alisoncooks]

I have a kiddo for whom the multiplication fact don't stick. I use all the tricks I can. School House Rock song for 3s (3 is the magic number...). Finger trick for 9s. Some rhyming/mnemonic devices for 6x6, 6x8, 7x8. 

I also allow the chart for multi digit multiplication and long division. 

[hands-on-mama]

2 hours ago, OKBud said:

I wonder if there is any way to contact the creator of MLFLE to see what they suggest in your situation.

I have talked to her some. Her advice was to keep plugging away. I’m afraid she will just her further behind at this point though. 

[Heathermomster]

My son learned his multiplication tables late 5th grade by following the instructions in a book by Ronit Bird called Overcoming Difficulties with Number. 

[Ausmumof3]

I second that multiplication facts that stick thing.   Also you mention a lot of drill but now is she with strategies for deriving answers rather than just rote memory.  Like if you ask her 9x6 does she know to do 60-6?  Or would she have to count up by sixes to get there?  Of course for the 9s there is the handy finger trick.  Imagine your fingers labeled from 1 to 10.  Now if you are multiplying 9x4 you put up finger number 4.  The number of fingers to the left of the four is the number of 10s and the number of fingers to the right is the number of 1s.

2s follow a simple pattern as do 5s and 10s obviously.  And if you know the 2 x tables you can double the result to get the 4x table.  Likewise if you know 3s you can double for 6s.  Then you really only need to memorise 7s and 8s and if you already know everything up to sixes and you have an easy trick for 9s there’s only 7x8 and 8x8 to actually memorise cold.

my dd is toward the end of grade 4 and has struggled a lot with rote memory.  We did use a times table chart for a while but I realised she needed to do the work of deriving the answer over and over for things to stick in her head and she nearly has them.  She is actually really smart at figuring out math strategies just not good at remembering stuff.

if your dd can’t follow the logical processes for figuring out the answers that’s when I’d be assuming dyscalculia.  Not being able to memorise the facts is fairly common but not being able to work them out at all even with good solid strategies is more like a learning disability.

[umsami]

Not sure if this will help...if she knows some of the lower facts but not the higher ones... but one thing that helped one of my kids was realizing that if they knew 5X3 and 3X3  then knew 8x3 (add them together...15+9=24....think this came from BA3).   So whenever we hit a fact they didn't know (often 6, 7, and 8s)... we'd try and figure out what they did know. 

Kid...Mom....what's 8 times 6??? 

Me...What can you break down 8 into that you do know??

Kid... 4 and 4

Me...OK...so what's 4x6

Kid....24

Me...So if you have two of those, what do you have?

Kid...48?

Me...yup....so 8 x 6 is the same as two 4s x 6...or 48

 

We also did lots of skip counting... .skip counting hopscotch.... tossing stuffed animals and balls back and forth... songs in the car....etc.  That child never got the facts down pat, but they figured out a way to get around that.

[letsplaymath]

Math anxiety (or any other kind of stress) affects working memory, which makes it much harder to learn and remember math facts. Since you've been working on this so long with so much frustration, I would suggest dropping it -- at least for now. Let your daughter release the stress by giving her a major change of pace.

Think about what you really want your daughter to learn. Is your long-term goal a girl who can whiz through multi-digit pencil-and-paper calculations? Or is it that she understands and can use math in her real life?

Memorizing the math facts is vital for developing speed with pencil-and-paper calculations, but not very important in building real-life understanding.

A great way to build understanding is to do a lot of story problems where you let her use a calculator (yes, really!) for the final calculation. Her focus should be on making sense of the story situation and figuring out what to do with the numbers, not on the mechanics of carrying, borrowing, and partial products.

The ability to analyze and make sense of a situation will give her a strong foundation for algebra. This is not a case of "easing off" on her progress in math or letting her fall behind, but of refocusing her efforts onto the more important part of the problem.

If your curriculum doesn't provide enough story problems for this sort of focus, then you might spend some time with an Edward Zaccaro book.

In my family's more than a quarter-century of homeschooling, we took several breaks from our regular curriculum, going on side-tracks like this through other areas of math, just to give the kids a change from whatever topic had become a stress-point. It refreshes the brain, and when we went back to the curriculum later, they usually found the tough topic much easier than it had been before.