Need math help

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

My DD is 14 and in 9th grade. We are attempting Algebra this year with SM Dimensions. We’ve used SM all along so we’re comfortable and familiar with the style and layout of the books. She did fine with it all the way through 6B US edition. Last year we tried MM7 but we both hated it so we decided to go back to SM and do Dimensions 6 as a review. We did math a few days a week through the summer to keep things fresh. We’re “behind” but I was ok with that as long as she was really understanding it. Except that now she’s not.  Over the past few months math has become a horrible ordeal. We go over the explanations and example problems together. She gets them right, understands what to do, this is easy. Then she does the exercise on her own. Most of them are wrong. We go over them together. I re-teach and explain and she gets it. We move on and repeat the same process plus she’s forgotten everything from the previous week. She actually did great last week adding and subtracting negative numbers. This week she’s totally confused about it. She remembers nothing from the previous chapter so when she had to use those skills on a problem today she had no idea what to do. Every day is awful. I can’t handle another day of crying over math or another late night doing math with a crying teenager. Even if she *can do some of it she just whines and complains that it’s too hard so I have to sit right there with her asking her what she needs to do next or it won’t get done. Also, she refuses to show her work so she just tries to juggle all the numbers in her head, which of course just leads to more mistakes. And I found out tonight that when she multiplies large numbers she goes from the top down so she often forgets to add in the number she carries over. She did that years ago but I thought we fixed it. Apparently not. 

I think I need to back up and just give up on the idea of Algebra 1 and 2 and Geometry by the end of high school. How far should I back up? I’m thinking maybe as far as her 12 year old sister who is, herself, already 1.5 years behind in math (CLE 5). That would put DD3 ahead of both older sisters in math. That’ll go over like a ton of bricks but I don’t know what else to do. Or maybe that’s just the frustration talking and it’s not that bad. 

 Any curriculum ideas? MUS, CLE, Saxon (which would kill me. I hate the looks of Saxon) I really can’t spend much right now but I need to do something different. 

I’m so frustrated right now. I love math and am a good teacher generally but something is just not working with this kid. 

[RootAnn]

Sounds like there might be some bad habits (not showing work), some brain fog (not remembering last week's work), and some level of freak out.

It is tough to find something spiral (other than Saxon) for Algebra up. I wonder if Jacobs might work? Is she a visual sort?

Or remove yourself from the equation (Derek Owens, MUS)?

[8filltheheart]

I wouldn't be so defeatist, yet. I know this forum loves SM, but its instruction can be too abstract for some kids and not actually develop the deep conceptual understanding its proponents insist it builds. It could be as simple as your Dd just needing concrete, simple, detailed step-by-step instruction about what it is she is supposed to do. 

What specific concepts do you feel she is missing from basic elementary math? For algebra, she needs a solid understanding of fractions, percentages, decimals. Is the multiplication truly an inability to do, or a symptom of frustration and lack of effort in writing it out?  Even if she is doing it incorrectly, how long would it take for her to be taught to do it correctly? Older kids can be tutored to solidify weak concepts rather quickly and don't need to spend an equivalent amt of time learning from the beginning like younger kids.

MUS algebra is incredibly simple.  I use it as pre-alg with my kids.  I would try it bc it has alg on its cover and will help her esteem vs stepping below younger siblings. I would spend time reviewing missing or flawed concepts within the context of its lessons bc it is so simple that you would have the extra time to work on them without it feeling overwhelming. If it goes well, then I would call this yr alg A and repeat with a stronger alg program next yr and call it alg B.

(eta: fwiw, I don't use the videos or blocks with my kids. I just teach them the concepts. If you have a solid understanding of alg, you can just read the TM and teach her directly (very basic stuff....not close to the complexity of a standard alg text. I have an older edition, but the TM I have has all the is necessary.)

Edited October 17, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

46 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I wouldn't be so defeatist, yet. I know this forum loves SM, but its instruction can be too abstract for some kids and not actually develop the deep conceptual understanding its proponents insist it builds. It could be as simple as your Dd just needing concrete, simple, detailed step-by-step instruction about what it is she is supposed to do. 

What specific concepts do you feel she is missing from basic elementary math? For algebra, she needs a solid understanding of fractions, percentages, decimals. Is the multiplication truly an inability to do, or a symptom of frustration and lack of effort in writing it out?  Even if she is doing it incorrectly, how long would it take for her to be taught to do it correctly? Older kids can be tutored to solidify weak concepts rather quickly and don't need to spend an equivalent amt of time learning from the beginning like younger kids.

MUS algebra is incredibly simple.  I use it as pre-alg with my kids.  I would try it bc it has alg on its cover and will help her esteem vs stepping below younger siblings. I would spend time reviewing missing or flawed concepts within the context of its lessons bc it is so simple that you would have the extra time to work on them without it feeling overwhelming. If it goes well, then I would call this yr alg A and repeat with a stronger alg program next yr and call it alg B.

(eta: fwiw, I don't use the videos or blocks with my kids. I just teach them the concepts. If you have a solid understanding of alg, you can just read the TM and teach her directly (very basic stuff....not close to the complexity of a standard alg text. I have an older edition, but the TM I have has all the is necessary.)

I don’t even know what she’s missing at this point. I think she’s ok with fractions and decimals. She might be fuzzy on converting between fractions, decimals, and percents? It *shouldn’t take long to teach her to multiply correctly or show her work but she is incredibly stubborn. Once she makes up her mind how she thinks something should be she refuses to change it - even if proven wrong and I can tell she understands the correct way. (Oh the fights we’ve had over what 0 times anything equals!) 

I’m looking at MUS or Saxon. Maybe CLE. I don’t want to have to figure out a new math program but what we’re doing isn’t working. I’ll print off some placement tests and see where she’s at and then go from there I guess. 

I’m just so exhausted! She hates all of school and it’s a fight to get her to do any of it correctly. Math is just the biggest fight. I’ve tried tailoring to her interests and learning style but she hates reading/art/projects if it’s part of school. I’d love to just let her do her own thing or put her in school but my DH  won’t go along with either of those options. I’m not sure she’d be successful in school anyway. She has absolutely no internal motivation to do any of it. Ugh...I was hoping I’d wake up this morning with fresh motivation and energy to get her through this but I’m just dreading four more years of the same and want to give up. 

[Miss Tick]

((Hugs))

[RenaInTexas]

I have a couple of ideas, maybe one you could actually find helpful.

Make sure she is doing enough practice problems (independently). SM doesn't have enough practice problems for some students. She forgets them next week because it was never committed to her long-term memory. This can be fixed by having her do more problems. Even when you move on to the next lesson, include 2-3 problems from the previous few lessons. My son's biggest complaint with PS was that they 'moved on to the next lesson too quickly - after they had only barely learned it. Why not let us master it before moving on?'

The only way to learn math is to do math. Few can learn simply by watching others. If you learn that way, then you learn to mimic. Then, as soon as a problem requires a different step or thought process (than the problems you mimicked), you can't do it. SO maybe spend a little more time teaching the process, the thoughts and questions that should be occurring as you work the problem. Then use an example to show how to use the thought process. 

Did she take a pretest for Algebra? The types of mistakes you are describing are mistakes that really should be cleaned up in Pre-Algebra before moving on. Don't rush through Algebra. It is the foundation of every math and science she will take in High School and college. When I taught College Calculus, the students who failed or struggled did so because of poor Algebra skills.

Let her struggle through some problems on her own. Give hints, ask questions, that indicate what she should be thinking about but don't tell her what the next step is. This will help her build perseverance and internalize her learning. The biggest problem I see with some Pre-Algebra/Algebra students is they are waiting for the teacher or some other student to give them the next step or show them how to do it (so they can say 'ohhhhh yaaaay')- which shows that is what happens at home. Once they know help isn't coming, they then have to learn how to think through it themselves.

Math is a subject that can be taught with no curriculum at all. So I am not always an advocate of changing curriculum because of the cost and math is so easy to supplement. Based on the mistakes that you described, seeing a curriculum that shows the steps may help. I have never seen SM Dimensions. But I know the elementary version didn't really teach in steps. I use Glencoe PreAlgebra and Algebra cheap old editions from Amazon. I like them because they have LOTS of examples and practice problems including higher order thinking problems, spiral review problems, hands-on labs, and real-life applications. Even so, I am not sure a new curriculum is called for. You are the best judge of that. Teaching to lay your work out and retention isn't really solved by a curriculum that is solved by the teacher insisting (even demanding) and by how the curriculum is implemented and supplemented. I guess the real question is, is the curriculum failing to teach the material adequately. If so, change it. If not, change your implementation and pace. I left SM (in 4th) because I didn't like what it taught. It left too many gaps for me and required too much supplementation to develop good habits.

Is the problem her vs math or her vs you? Some of her rebellion may be against you. This is where outsourcing such a difficult yet critical subject may be in order. An online teacher or tutoring telling her to work on paper sounds a lot different than mom. A pretty good alternative to an online class would be youtube videos that teach the content. Youtube has helped us through these phases. There is even a youtube video for most of Glencoe's lessons. After having to sit through a few 20-25 minute lectures, my dc decided that listening to old mom wasn't so bad.

We are all on the outside peeking in so some of what we suggest will be unapplicable, but hopefully one or two will spark an idea for you.

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I don’t even know what she’s missing at this point. I think she’s ok with fractions and decimals. She might be fuzzy on converting between fractions, decimals, and percents? It *shouldn’t take long to teach her to multiply correctly or show her work but she is incredibly stubborn. Once she makes up her mind how she thinks something should be she refuses to change it - even if proven wrong and I can tell she understands the correct way. (Oh the fights we’ve had over what 0 times anything equals!) 

I’m looking at MUS or Saxon. Maybe CLE. I don’t want to have to figure out a new math program but what we’re doing isn’t working. I’ll print off some placement tests and see where she’s at and then go from there I guess. 

I’m just so exhausted! She hates all of school and it’s a fight to get her to do any of it correctly. Math is just the biggest fight. I’ve tried tailoring to her interests and learning style but she hates reading/art/projects if it’s part of school. I’d love to just let her do her own thing or put her in school but my DH  won’t go along with either of those options. I’m not sure she’d be successful in school anyway. She has absolutely no internal motivation to do any of it. Ugh...I was hoping I’d wake up this morning with fresh motivation and energy to get her through this but I’m just dreading four more years of the same and want to give up. 

I am not exaggerating when I say that MUS alg is just that simple. It is definitely more on par with a pre-alg program. (Based on what I have read over the yrs, I would not use the pre-alg bc it is the fill in the gaps/catch up from all their other books.) I think you could just spend time teaching each lesson and hit any misunderstanding as they come up. Teach her GPAs in the context of a day's lesson. The thing with MUS is there is only 1 new simple concept per week and the lessons are very repetitive.  There are not 70+'problems but more like 20 in the main text and 15 in the workbook (at least they used to be sold separately but I think they may have combined them into 1 textbook now.)

[klmama]

FWIW, I went to video instruction for math to remove myself from the initial exposure to new topics. That way the dc can learn from someone who loves math (I don't), and I can still step in to help with assignments as needed. I'm more patient then,  and my dc see me as an ally who can help, instead of as a task master. 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Thank you for all the suggestions! Today was better. It helped that she could tell I was super frustrated last night and that dad called her out on being difficult this morning. She was more teachable and listened to what I was saying and asked questions if she didn’t understand. A pleasant switch from insisting that the book was wrong and she was right. Listening instead of arguing seemed to help her grasp the material more easily. (Shocking!) I don’t know how long that will last but I’ll take it while I can get it. 

I sat with her and reviewed previous lessons asking her to explain things to me and then solve a couple of problems with me watching. I showed her how I expect her to show her work and told her that I will be handing work back to be redone if steps were missing or it’s too tiny or messy to read (she likes to fill every line end to end making it next to impossible to find answers.) We started the chapter over and I had her do all of the problems in the first lesson instead of every other one. She only missed a couple and I sent her back to correct them on her own. I think that might be a big issue. I help her with corrections so she relies on me to give her hints and next steps instead of actually thinking about it and figuring it out herself. Then she pretends to understand it so we can keep going. 

I’m also considering a switch to MUS. I could let the video teach and then I’d just have to help if she got stuck. I already have most of the manipulatives if she wanted to use them. I haven’t decided yet though. I want to try some other things and see how they work. 

Next projects: teaching her how to take notes as she reads and how to study for tests. Homeschooling teenagers is no joke! She needs way more of time than any of my younger three! 

[Ausmumof3]

21 minutes ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

Thank you for all the suggestions! Today was better. It helped that she could tell I was super frustrated last night and that dad called her out on being difficult this morning. She was more teachable and listened to what I was saying and asked questions if she didn’t understand. A pleasant switch from insisting that the book was wrong and she was right. Listening instead of arguing seemed to help her grasp the material more easily. (Shocking!) I don’t know how long that will last but I’ll take it while I can get it. 

I sat with her and reviewed previous lessons asking her to explain things to me and then solve a couple of problems with me watching. I showed her how I expect her to show her work and told her that I will be handing work back to be redone if steps were missing or it’s too tiny or messy to read (she likes to fill every line end to end making it next to impossible to find answers.) We started the chapter over and I had her do all of the problems in the first lesson instead of every other one. She only missed a couple and I sent her back to correct them on her own. I think that might be a big issue. I help her with corrections so she relies on me to give her hints and next steps instead of actually thinking about it and figuring it out herself. Then she pretends to understand it so we can keep going. 

I’m also considering a switch to MUS. I could let the video teach and then I’d just have to help if she got stuck. I already have most of the manipulatives if she wanted to use them. I haven’t decided yet though. I want to try some other things and see how they work. 

Next projects: teaching her how to take notes as she reads and how to study for tests. Homeschooling teenagers is no joke! She needs way more of time than any of my younger three! 

Arguing even though it’s annoying is positive in a way.  It means the kids is thinking about and engaging with the ideas and concepts not just learning the process without understanding.

[Lucy the Valiant]

Just to throw another idea into the mix, we use SM 1A-6B over here, and then switch to Dolciani / Houghton (regular mid-90's / 2000 copyright public school books) - these books have 2 excellent features which I feel have contributed to my kids' math comprehension - excellent step-by-step instructions that kids can reference for each lesson, and tiered-difficulty practice problems - A-level, B-level, and C-level problem sets (so a lighter algebra would just do the A-levels, and an honors-algebra would do all the B-levels and most of the C-levels, too. 

I'm an English teacher by training and by DNA, and was intimidated to do "high school math" with my kids, but these books have "held my hand" the whole way.

(Honestly, MUS sounds perfect for your DD, but in case she's anti-video-learning like my kids seem to be, I thought I'd throw out one more inexpensive idea.)