phonics and accents

[Mbelle]

My little ds has had some issues with phonics, but he turned a corner last week and started reading out of interest.  Just a little but it's a big deal and now he feels more  confident now.

I do believe in phonics, but there is a point where it's not working.  I have a mild north georgia accent.  I really struggle with differences in a couple of vowels. I can force myself to say them, but it is confusing ds. LOL  He looks at me strangely and is clearly befuddled when I try to say ehhh.  I'm talking about things like tin/ten.  I pronounce them (i/e) exactly the same (as does he) and a few other sounds like this.  (Merry/Mary/Marry...all the same.)

Our other two kids did not learn reading with too much phonics and never had any issues with this.  

I am wondering if it is ok, to simply explain this to the ds.  We say this and it's spelled this way so just memorize it.   

Any experiences?

Edited October 10, 2018 by Mbelle

[Petrichor]

I'd probably start with introducing the idea of accents. Explain that "standard american english" or whatever term you want to refer to it as, sounds like "ehhhh" etc. but that it's ok to say it in whatever other accent too. Use tv shows as an example of this "standard american english" accent. He's probably familiar with how other people from different regions say things (either from meeting them or hearing things in videos.)

And if the trying to pronounce things in the phonics/midwestern accent is difficult for you and you feel like you are just confusing the situation, youtube or dictionary websites have the audio pronunciation for just about every word.

ESL or accent reduction videos can help provide some of what it seems like you've been trying to show your DS (eg. the pronunciation of e vs a or whatever it is.) Not suggesting that you need to reduce your accent, just trying to be helpful, so please don't take it as me belittling a southern accent XD. My DH is from a non-english speaking country and struggles with some vowel sounds and I've found resources like the above helpful for helping him understand the difference between the sounds. Oh! another thing that might be helpful is looking at the articulation points for sounds. googling "articulation for english sounds" seemed to bring up a couple of good results.
 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Petrichor
to remove awkward phrasing

[Clemsondana]

I just told my kids that we say some words differently, and that people in other places probably say other words differently.  Our first encounter was when we were doing 'et' words - bet, set, wet, get, and my kid asked what 'get' was.  I used it in a sentence, and he said 'Oh, you mean 'git'.  ?  

I'm using an old set of elementary spelling books (from the 1960s) and we've had a couple of times when we couldn't figure things out - it would ask for a rhyme and we couldn't find one, or ask about a starting sound that I didn't recognize.  I showed it to kiddo's speech therapist and she said that sometimes there are regional differences and there are also several sounds that have changed over the past 30 years.  The way that she was taught to do the 'wh' sound, as 'hwh', isn't done in most places any more, for example.  Your son might find it entertaining to listen to an old newscast and maybe a few other clips on youtube of folks who have different accents so that he can hear them.  We're from the south and lived in NM when my kids were young, so they were exposed to 'midwestern' English, Spanish and Navajo-influenced English, and southern English as young kids, so it was easy to point out that certain friends said certain words differently.  

[Mbelle]

Ds should be pretty used to accents because of the area we live in and also because dh is Australian.  I just need to talk normally during spelling and sounding out perhaps, because that is what is puzzling him.  He can work out the words in reading, but it's when it comes to spelling that it's just a big confusion. 

 

[Ellie]

6 hours ago, Mbelle said:

My little ds has had some issues with phonics, but he turned a corner last week and started reading out of interest.  Just a little but it's a big deal and now he feels more  confident now.

I do believe in phonics, but there is a point where it's not working.  I have a mild north georgia accent.  I really struggle with differences in a couple of vowels. I can force myself to say them, but it is confusing ds. LOL  He looks at me strangely and is clearly befuddled when I try to say ehhh.  I'm talking about things like tin/ten.  I pronounce them (i/e) exactly the same (as does he) and a few other sounds like this.  (Merry/Mary/Marry...all the same.)

Our other two kids did not learn reading with too much phonics and never had any issues with this.  

I am wondering if it is ok, to simply explain this to the ds.  We say this and it's spelled this way so just memorize it.   

Any experiences?

Well, you're talking about spelling, really, not phonics. :-) Yes, it's ok to explain it to him, and learn to spell it the correct way. That's when usage comes into the picture: you would be talking about a ten-dollar bill and a tin can. You would ask a preacher to marry you on that merry day.

FTR, Merry, Mary, and Marry all sound the same to me, as well. :-) I think my g-grandmother might have said "May-ry" for "Mary," because she also said "Say-rah" for "Sarah."

[8filltheheart]

I also say merry, marry, and Mary the say way.  

My grandkids have been living with us for weeks and I have been doing school with them.  When my grandson first got here he could not distinguish between i and e short vowel sounds. His mom's name is Rebecca. I played a game with him every time he would would say short i for short e. I would  say, " Is your mommy' name Ribicca?" He would laugh and say, "No, Rebecca." I kept doing that until he pronounced words in his reading with the correct sound. When I call out spelling, I emphasize the eh vs i difference. Now he is doing it on his own.

Edited October 11, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[kiwik]

I had to omit words from OPGTR - NZ English HG is much less phonetic than US English.

 

On the plus side Mary, merry and marry don't sound the same in NZ.

Edited October 11, 2018 by kiwik

[Mbelle]

It does seem to be spelling vs reading.  I said some words outloud yesterday to myself from his list of words.  A lot of vowels I say almost have 2 vowel sounds.  For instance Lamp.  It sounds more like la-ump and there is a subtle tone change goes from a mid to higher to lower, but if I try to say phonetic perfect L A M P it sounds flat.  When he tries to write down spelling I guess he's having to translate that back to something familiar and it gets confusing.

13 hours ago, Ellie said:

Well, you're talking about spelling, really, not phonics. ? Yes, it's ok to explain it to him, and learn to spell it the correct way. That's when usage comes into the picture: you would be talking about a ten-dollar bill and a tin can. You would ask a preacher to marry you on that merry day.

FTR, Merry, Mary, and Marry all sound the same to me, as well. ? I think my g-grandmother might have said "May-ry" for "Mary," because she also said "Say-rah" for "Sarah."

 off topic, but my family last name is similar to the May-ry.  My Dad's generation mostly dropped the May-ry and went straight to Mary, but the old people insist that it is May-ry. 

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Mbelle said:

It does seem to be spelling vs reading.  I said some words outloud yesterday to myself from his list of words.  A lot of vowels I say almost have 2 vowel sounds.  For instance Lamp.  It sounds more like la-ump and there is a subtle tone change goes from a mid to higher to lower, but if I try to say phonetic perfect L A M P it sounds flat.  When he tries to write down spelling I guess he's having to translate that back to something familiar and it gets confusing.

I have a friend who lives outside of a small town in the middle of North Carolina, where she also grew up. She said phonics was a nightmare for her. :-)

[Bluegoat]

I wonder if the problem is that you are teaching a fairly simple sort of phonics?  Many letters or letter combinations can have two or more sounds, so wouldn't that account really for most different accents?  

In any case, I would maybe just gloss over some of the problem words if you can, I think this might be something where it will be much easier to deal with once he is reading fairly well.  

[Mbelle]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

I wonder if the problem is that you are teaching a fairly simple sort of phonics?  Many letters or letter combinations can have two or more sounds, so wouldn't that account really for most different accents?  

In any case, I would maybe just gloss over some of the problem words if you can, I think this might be something where it will be much easier to deal with once he is reading fairly well.  

I agree.  I think once he's reading well then he can adjust to spelling just like it's a math problem or similar type thing.  

 

[Mbelle]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

I also have a southern accent and tbh I don't see the problem. Point to ten, say "t-en, ten." Point to tin, say "t-in, tin" It doesn't matter if they sound the same. They do sound the same. 

Wind sounds like when with a d on the end ? Things like that, it's not a problem or limitation of phonics, it's just the way it is.

As long as you are not pointing at, say, eat and going, "et" (So many people I know say et for eat and it amuses me to no end), you'll be fine. If you want, you can tell him some people pronounce things differently, but honestly, he'll pick that up on hos own out in the world and while watching movies. 

I guess the problem has turned out to be more of a spelling after reading through the thread. I would not even worry about this, but his hybrid school gives spelling tests and he's making a high of 50 on these. LOL     I don't really care for grades in early years, but I did let it get to me and somehow we were spending way too much time on this.  I decided to let it go and spend that time reading.  The more familiar he gets with the words I think the easier spelling will become.  

His reading is coming along.  He actually did read the word  tin   yesterday and did think it was the number, but he'll figure that out.

 

[Bluegoat]

7 hours ago, OKBud said:

 

I also have a southern accent and tbh I don't see the problem. Point to ten, say "t-en, ten." Point to tin, say "t-in, tin" It doesn't matter if they sound the same. They do sound the same. 

Wind sounds like when with a d on the end ? Things like that, it's not a problem or limitation of phonics, it's just the way it is.

As long as you are not pointing at, say, eat and going, "et" (So many people I know say et for eat and it amuses me to no end), you'll be fine. If you want, you can tell him some people pronounce things differently, but honestly, he'll pick that up on hos own out in the world and while watching movies. 

 

Gosh I always pictured you with an east coast accent.

[RootAnn]

8 hours ago, OKBud said:

Point to ten, say "t-en, ten." Point to tin, say "t-in, tin" It doesn't matter if they sound the same. They do sound the same. 

Wind sounds like when with a d on the end

None of this is true here (middle U.S.). They sound different.

But, I do have a problem saying "picture" the correct way. It sounds like "pitcher" when I am not saying it for spelling. I also apparently make a /ch/ sound instead of a /tr/ sound for train. I don't think I do, but my kids all spell it chain the first few times.  I'm not saying anyone else has this problem.  . .

[RootAnn]

Question: for those who say ten and tin the same, do will and well sound the same?

[Mbelle]

8 hours ago, OKBud said:

 

How old is he?

He's six

 

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

Question: for those who say ten and tin the same, do will and well sound the same?

not for me

 

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

Not for me. Wheel and will are liable to sound the same though ?

"Get up under that will."

"I wheel." hahaha

yes, wheel and will sound the same

[Mbelle]

2 hours ago, OKBud said:

Ah, six. No worries! 

Honestly, I didn't begin teach any spelling to my kids until they were reading very, very well. And that worked out really well, both for my natural speller and my resistant one.... He'll see them written over and over and then, even if he's not a kid who warms up to spelling right off the bat, those kinds of differences (tin v ten) will be far more comprehensible than they are now after lots of reading. Especially with the fun mix of accents at your house ? . No worries. 

I would not normally worry about it either.   He's a sweetheart caboose baby and with my oldest in college and ds1 at hybrid school for high school I thought maybe it would be fun for ds2 to go too.   It is really great for the most part, but this spelling business is tough.  I would never do this at home.  Not sure about doing this again next year, but he's going to be alone for many years and needs a community so we shall see. The people are wonderful and I would use about 80% of the same stuff they use or similar.

[MerryAtHope]

20 hours ago, Mbelle said:

I would not normally worry about it either.   He's a sweetheart caboose baby and with my oldest in college and ds1 at hybrid school for high school I thought maybe it would be fun for ds2 to go too.   It is really great for the most part, but this spelling business is tough.  I would never do this at home.  Not sure about doing this again next year, but he's going to be alone for many years and needs a community so we shall see. The people are wonderful and I would use about 80% of the same stuff they use or similar.

 

I'm sure it will come in time. Here's some help with short E and Short I--you could see if these tips help!

On 10/12/2018 at 2:51 PM, RootAnn said:

None of this is true here (middle U.S.). They sound different.

But, I do have a problem saying "picture" the correct way. It sounds like "pitcher" when I am not saying it for spelling. I also apparently make a /ch/ sound instead of a /tr/ sound for train. I don't think I do, but my kids all spell it chain the first few times.  I'm not saying anyone else has this problem.  . .

 

That's actually not as uncommon as you might think! Here is a short, 5-minute video put out by Rachel’s English. She does videos for people learning English as a second language, but I find them very helpful for understanding why kids make some mistakes like these–she clearly shows the mouth and lip positions, and it’s information you might be able to draw from when you explain to your kids how to make the sounds (and therefore how to hear and spell them). (The video is mainly for you–most kids wouldn’t be too interested!)