S/O thread --- NPD

[Shoeless]

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Edited October 4, 2020 by MissLemon

[LMD]

I get what you're saying Stella, and you know that I value precise language so I'm trying to take it on board. Conversely, being raised by a person who exhibits npd traits is to be robbed of your ability to think and express clearly. Finding vocabulary and a voice is half the battle. The other half is the Pavlovian guilt that rears its head to confuse and obscure the truth. So I will do my best, but there's a fair bit of internal wrestling already happening with this expression.

 

Unrelated:

I spent a lot of time wondering if I was actually the problem, if I was just taking an easy out of 'blaming mother for all my problems.' I'm actually terrified of my children thinking this way about me. what If she was right and everything I did was a huge mistake? My mother hasn't been diagnosed, she goes to therapy every now and then but she's got the perfect victim story so...

My best friend's dad is the same. This year he rang her on her birthday to call her names and tell her she was cut out of the will (again).

[GoodGrief]

50 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

 BPD isn't NPD. Why conflate the two ? It's like saying all people with schizophrenia are the same as all people with bipolar.

Not the same disorder. Not the same presentation. Not the same treatment. Not the same outcomes. 

 

 

Agreed, they really are quite different.

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, LarlaB said:

 
  I was referencing those in my life who are adult children of a parent with NPD-  educated adults who have a lot of life & relationship experience, well read and well travelled.  These adults are parents themselves and still defend and dismiss atrocious NPD behavior.  IMHO, that's denial motivated by fear of losing 'family'.   Even when confronted with obvious facts, they deny, reframe and excuse the NPD and join in the swirl of chaos- they are still controlled by NPD parent and at core then enable and feed the supply. 

Additionally, my comment was that true NPD can't hide for too long from those close to them.  You can't miss it if you are willing to see it.    NPD behavior can be subtle I suppose, but the patterns of golden/devaluing, plentiful fractured relationships, enormous ego and lack of empathy is pretty obvious.

I believe it's a lot more complex than that for some people.  There is little in "the normal world" that teaches us how to process abuse.  There's actually very little that teaches us how to *identify anything beyond physical abuse.  Look at all the #metoo and #whyididntreport stories of people who didn't understand what had happened until much later.
Emotional/mental abuse has real impact on the brain and thought processes.  What might be "obvious" to some can take years of therapy, processing, and learning what normal relationships should look like for others.  *Willful denial is a pretty strong charge against people who have been severely damaged by abuse.

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

It's dehumanising language. 

A person is not a BPD. A person is not a PD. 

Generally speaking, I absolutely agree, and I do feel some guilt about my language.  I can probably handle referring to my family member, who has diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder, as someone who has diagnosed Borderline PD.  With help, she has periods of positive relationships, even though I choose not to be one of them. When she is self-aware, it is clear that she is so much more than a label.

When it comes to the family member with (likely undiagnosed - it isn't as if she'd share her multiple therapists' insights - but so very, very real) NPD? I don't know.  The idea of trying to humanize someone who has done such evil things to a spouse, a parent, children, grandchildren, in-laws, cousins, "friends", neighbors, and even animals... That is such an enormous ask.  I have not seen a genuinely positive moment in over 18 years, only progressive damage. She does not recognize anyone as a living being with value outside of her personal use.  At this point, every single word, every single behavior, and every single action is a manifestation of NPD.

[LarlaB]

5 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

It's dehumanising language. 

A person is not a BPD. A person is not a PD. 

 

Yes you keep repeating yourself.  I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of how things are phrased and assumptions as to the beliefs or intent of the speaker.

[LarlaB]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I believe it's a lot more complex than that for some people.  There is little in "the normal world" that teaches us how to process abuse.  There's actually very little that teaches us how to *identify anything beyond physical abuse.  Look at all the #metoo and #whyididntreport stories of people who didn't understand what had happened until much later.
Emotional/mental abuse has real impact on the brain and thought processes.  What might be "obvious" to some can take years of therapy, processing, and learning what normal relationships should look like for others.  *Willful denial is a pretty strong charge against people who have been severely damaged by abuse.

 

I agree with all of that.  Patterns and family systems are powerful and of course it’s complex.  I wasn’t making broad generalizations or assumptions rather speaking to an aspect of my experience with others-  referencing specific people I know.

Choosing denial does exist. People chose for a host of reasons to not deal with lots of things all of the time.  They aren’t ready to willing. I have utmost compassion for that as I’ve been there myself.   

I think this thread has a wealth of resources and support.  I hope people can sift thru it and find the life and light.

[G5052]

17 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

FWIW, given the nature of the condition coupled with the state of mental health care, it's relatively rare for a person with a personality disorder to get a solid diagnosis and treatment. Toss in the ease of gathering information on the internet, and it IS much more common for people to start to put together the pieces of the confusing puzzle that is life with someone with a personality disorder. However, people are not always accurate in their assessments, it is true. I also know people who likely have a personality disorder themselves grabbing onto that label and misapplying it to others who are displeasing them in some way.

No one would ever deny that my mother was mentally ill, even requiring institutional care for many years. But up until her death, she never got a certain diagnosis despite almost constant contact with the medical community. It is what it is, and family/community members are left trying to work this out without solid guidance.

 

I've dealt with two formally-diagnosed individuals, one with NPD and one with BPD/NPD. In it's full form, it's far-reaching and will make your head spin. They aren't the types that seek therapy either. It's usually their family who end up seeking help because they are trying to cope with the person's thinking and actions.

You are right that an armchair diagnosis isn't necessarily correct. Someone being proud and/or pushy isn't necessarily a PD. There has to be a solid pattern of disordered thought and behavior. And some have aspects of NPD, but don't meet the full criteria.

When someone is on the low end of the spectrum, their relationships may be troubled but still intact. It's when it gets destructive that distance has to be maintained. I read a lot on internet about going "no contact" with people who are just difficult to deal with. Ultimately we all choose of course, but that's different than someone who goes "no contact" with someone who has been far more damaging and can't control their reactions. Not everyone with a PD needs to be cut off. I've had bosses who seemed to have aspects of the PD's, but were by no means full-blown. And I learned how to work with them. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by G5052

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, LMD said:

I get what you're saying Stella, and you know that I value precise language so I'm trying to take it on board. Conversely, being raised by a person who exhibits npd traits is to be robbed of your ability to think and express clearly. Finding vocabulary and a voice is half the battle. The other half is the Pavlovian guilt that rears its head to confuse and obscure the truth. So I will do my best, but there's a fair bit of internal wrestling already happening with this expression.

and so often, the rest of the family will turn on you for being disloyal.   my npd person has been dead for more than 20 years - and there are still times I struggle to know what is normal/healthy - and what is my pavlovian training.

Unrelated:

I spent a lot of time wondering if I was actually the problem, if I was just taking an easy out of 'blaming mother for all my problems.' I'm actually terrified of my children thinking this way about me. what If she was right and everything I did was a huge mistake? My mother hasn't been diagnosed, she goes to therapy every now and then but she's got the perfect victim story so...

My best friend's dad is the same. This year he rang her on her birthday to call her names and tell her she was cut out of the will (again).

 

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Generally speaking, I absolutely agree, and I do feel some guilt about my language.  I can probably handle referring to my family member, who has diagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder, as someone who has diagnosed Borderline PD.  With help, she has periods of positive relationships, even though I choose not to be one of them. When she is self-aware, it is clear that she is so much more than a label.

When it comes to the family member with (likely undiagnosed - it isn't as if she'd share her multiple therapists' insights - but so very, very real) NPD? I don't know.  The idea of trying to humanize someone who has done such evil things to a spouse, a parent, children, grandchildren, in-laws, cousins, "friends", neighbors, and even animals... That is such an enormous ask.  I have not seen a genuinely positive moment in over 18 years, only progressive damage. She does not recognize anyone as a living being with value outside of her personal use.  At this point, every single word, every single behavior, and every single action is a manifestation of NPD.

I learned what evil is from this woman.  it's not self-centerdness, or obnoxiousness, or anything like them - she took PLEASURE in dragging people down!  she took joy in destroying other people's autonomy, just to feed her own ego.  I always felt like I was expected to bow and scrape and kiss her muddy boots - so she could kick me in my face if she felt like it.  to prove myself by giving her the knife so she could sacrifice me on the alter of her ego.  - and I was never acceptable to her - because I was a third.  because I made good choice which led to good things in my life - and how dare I ***steal*** good things from my sister!!! (she may have been acting out her extreme jealousy over several of her sisters who had better incomes than her.)  and she starts on us the day we we're born, and it didn't stop until her health fell off a cliff and she was sleeping 22+ hours a day.

and my mother was so broken, and mentally and emotionally dependent upon her, we were taught by our mother to do whatever grandma required of us.   my mother made many bad choices that adversely affected her children - and I would joke she was the rebellious teen and I was the adult (when I was a teen), but outside of anything related to grandmother, she was just making a lot of bad choices (which can leave me speechless as to what she was thinking as a now parent of adult children) compared to someone who was actually evil.

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

Someone mentioned upthread about people here on this forum that criticize those who are describing the destructive and abusive person in their life. They do? I haven't seen that, at least not here in this thread...unless I missed something. If these people are reading these threads and thinking how horrible this is,

 

not so much in this thread - but I've seen it in multiple threads where people have been criticized for thinking such things about their family member.  where people have been told they shouldn't cut off contact to protect themselves, that THEY are selfish if they do so.   usually  it happens in threads where someone is finally waking up to what is happening in their family.  and people who do not have such a relative will join in.  many just offer "i don't understand, but here's a hug" support - and a few really don't understand - but think they have useful wisdom to share (they don't.) and will pontificate in rather sanctimonious ways.

I had learned a lot before joining the forum, but the last pieces of the puzzle to understanding were found here.  understanding is what can lead to healing.  and I still struggle to know what is up, and what is down at times.

[J-rap]

On 9/25/2018 at 10:40 AM, TechWife said:

So, I have a person in my family. I don't see this person regularly, but have somewhat regular phone contact. This is what I have observed over the years:

Every conversation is about her. For example: Constant talking, not listening, always about her opinion, her impressions, her experiences. Everything that happens is detailed as if it was done to her (if she thinks it's negative) or for her (if she thinks it's positive).

If I attempt to relate something that happened to me or someone in my immediate family - she can "one up" the occasion, no matter what it is. For example - the job she used to have as a manager was more important and critical than the job my husband has as a top level technical executive for an international company. Her one trip abroad always tops my husband's stories of his travels, when he has literally been around the world ( as in, when we entered the US yesterday after vacation, the customs agent asked him what he does for a living and then said "I've never seen a passport quite like yours."). When I mentioned that we were table hosts for a company dinner - she said "Well, when we did those, we had top level executive managers as table hosts." I respond "DH is a top level executive," which is met with an abrupt change of subject. My son has several medical issues, but the intermittent, typical childhood medical issues that her children had were much more traumatic, to her way of thinking. No matter what I say, she has a story that can top it, unless she can't, in which case she tries to insert herself into our story.  When, during one hospitalization, she said she wanted to come to town to help us and I refused her offer, she was offended and told other family members I was being selfish.

She constantly lies and/or is wildly inconsistent. Examples: Her oldest daughter is a terrible mother to the grandchildren. Two weeks later, her daughter is wonderful, it's her daughter in law that is terrible to the other grandchildren. Her son can do no wrong. Also: she was a wonderful teenager when she was young - never gave our parents a bit of trouble. Denies things I know happened (like her getting arrested & tried for theft). Says she will do things, then doesn't follow through. Says it took her three hours to drive home from somewhere in a storm, when her daughter who was riding with her says "I don't remember it that way at all. It was only about 30 minutes." I know hundreds of examples. I pretty much don't believe anything she says, even if it's as simple as the price of gasoline, she just seems to make stuff up out of thin air.

Are these NPD traits?

 

 

It's hard to say.  (And of course, I have very, very little experience -- except for one person who most definitely has it and so I've thought a lot about it!)

She could just be very self-absorbed, selfish, small-minded, shallow, competitive, and trying hard to boost her own self-esteem.  I suppose those could also be traits of NPD.  

But the NPD person I know is not like that.  She wants to be SEEN as compassionate and doing the right things.  She is nice to people, asks them questions, and can sound really charming.  She knows how to play the game.  (Whether consciously or not, I do not really know.)

Yes, she does expect the world to revolve around her and you might catch glimpses of that over time, the more time you spend with her.

But it's really only with her "scapegoats" that her NPD comes out in full glory.  But it's not in a gloating way.  It's so hard to describe.  It's done in a way that almost sounds true.  It twists reality so bizarrely and tightly that it completely confuses/ throws off the scapegoats.  It's done in a way that her victims don't even know who the crazy one really is.  And the only way to set things right is to completely give in to her, and then you're hers.

Edited September 26, 2018 by J-rap

[gardenmom5]

Yes.  Victims are so programmed to think the pd person's view of reality is the correct one, that if you ever see something different, you will automatically question your sanity because it doesn't fit the program you've been fed.

 

Who do you believe?  The person who tells you what is reality? Or your 'lying eyes'?

I don't like auto spell correct

Edited September 26, 2018 by gardenmom5

[G5052]

3 hours ago, J-rap said:

But it's really only with her "scapegoats" that her NPD comes out in full glory.  But it's not in a gloating way.  It's so hard to describe.  It's done in a way that almost sounds true.  It twists reality so bizarrely and tightly that it completely confuses/ throws off the scapegoats.  It's done in a way that her victims don't even know who the crazy one really is.  And the only way to set things right is to completely give in to her, and then you're hers.

 

The scapegoat is one of the markers of NPD. They are driven to manipulate and control an individual.

People who are just proud or demanding don't do that. They may demand or lay a guilt trip, but that's different.

[GoodGrief]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

I'm sorry ? lessening the stigma of mental illness and disorders isn't good ? Stigma is part of what stops people getting treatment. Now, this may not apply to people with NPD traits for whom there is no good treatment, but not all PD's are the same, and young people with BPD traits certainly DO deserve access to the treatment which will help them live productively and responsibly with their disorder.

It's not my fault that y'all persist in ignorantly conflating personality disorders under the umbrella 'NPD'. 

I have to agree with Stella (and speaking as the daughter of a woman severely impacted by likely BPD and the mother of a daughter who has been successful in treatment for the illness.) Personality disorders are particularly cruel and destructive illnesses, but they are, in fact, illnesses.

That said, one can recognize that the person with the illness did not choose that condition and at the same time be aware that protection from that person may be necessary in the form of boundaries of various sorts.

[GoodGrief]

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Absolutely, and I have not suggested otherwise. Just asked that people not call people with BPD 'BPD's' or 'PD's'. 

Also daughter of a mother with BPD traits and behaviours who abused me during my teen years, her disorder likely triggered by losing her mother in traumatic circumstances as a young girl. She is not a monster either. She is not a PD. She is a person who had many, many struggles, did things that were wrong, and also things that were right. If she could go back in time armed with DBT skills, she would absolutely choose not to abuse. Like many women with BPD traits, who manage to survive their 30's untreated (most likely time for them to complete a suicide attempt) her traits and behaviours became less symptomatic of BPD with age. She doesn't deserve to be stigmatised either.

 

Agreed...I wish my mother could have received decent treatment in her youth. She was too far gone by her 30s when she became so dysfunctional. I could not have a reasonable relationship with her, but I realize this situation was not of her choosing.