Am I too critical or is this bad for a 9 yo?

[4KookieKids]

I just need feedback on what's appropriate (in terms of penmanship and speed - I'm not concerned about content right now) for a 9 yo boy, and if these pictures (below) of his writing are concerning. Because he's always complained about it, I haven't really pushed the writing thing, except to make sure that he does a little bit most days in hopes that it would build up his writing muscles. But is it normal to write like this at 9 years old still? He's either a young 4th grader or old 3rd grader. Cursive has made writing easier for him (as in: doesn't complain about it hurting), but each of these paragraphs took him a *full* 30 minutes to write down.... I had him tell me what he wanted to say beforehand while I wrote that down, and then he just re-wrote it in a notebook, and I couldn't believe that it still took him 30 minutes per paragraph! I intended to write one book response in a day, and we're spending entire weeks writing 3-4 paragraphs, because I don't have him do more than one paragraph per day.

Please note that we did most of our correcting during the dictation/scribing phase of things, which left mainly spelling/copying mistakes on these "final" pages. I guess the writing doesn't seem awful to me - but it certainly doesn't look like the kind of writing I'd expect from a kid who just spent 30 min  on a 2-3 sentence paragraph, you know? We do all the normal "sit up straight, feet on the ground, tilt your paper, etc." spiel every time we write. Also, these writings were done with me AT his elbow, reminding him of things constantly ("Make sure you leave a space there!" right as he's starting another word without leave a space, or "You forgot a t in little!" or "Make sure you capitalize ..." ) I had him re-write stuff on his own once this week, and I'm wishing I'd kept it now to include here, but we had to rip it out of the notebook and throw it away because it was completely illegible, I felt.

ETA: He does not have reading delays. He read each of the books written about below in an evening - maybe 1-2 hours. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by 4KookieKids

[4KookieKids]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

At this point in time, this is better than what I expect from my own DD9.  Having said that, DD9 has been delayed in reading because I basically had to start over with her in grade 2.  She is for the most part caught up now, but I never expected comprehension, and writing, to be on grade level before the reading was.  So, my opinion might carry differences on my beliefs regarding how the these things follow each other.  

 

FTR, we haven't transitioned to regular ruled paper yet either.  I plan too within a few weeks but, haven't yet.  

Also, DD9 is also a very early 4th grader or older 3rd grader.  She has a mid school year birthday.  

DS9 misses the grade cut-off by two weeks, and I'm glad for the extra time to work on his writing. ? What do you mean about regular ruled paper? This is still wide-ruled, I believe?

He does not have reading delays (he can read Secret Garden and Harry Potter in a second language, and his English reading is far better, to put it into perspective). It's part of why I find his struggle to write so odd. 

[hollyhock2]

I never ever had my 9yo son (who is now 10) write more than 3-4 sentences at a time. So the fact that yours is writing multiple paragraphs is something. Maybe the reluctance is because it's so long? Just a thought.

Also, are you asking about the writing itself or the penmanship? It all seems very good to me. The penmanship isn't exactly pretty, but I'd say it's very normal for a 9yo boy.

[4KookieKids]

3 minutes ago, hollyhock2 said:

I never ever had my 9yo son (who is now 10) write more than 3-4 sentences at a time. So the fact that yours is writing multiple paragraphs is something. Maybe the reluctance is because it's so long? Just a thought.

Also, are you asking about the writing itself or the penmanship? It all seems very good to me. The penmanship isn't exactly pretty, but I'd say it's very normal for a 9yo boy.

I think I was asking primarily about his penmanship and slowness. We do only write 3-4 sentences at a time. I wanted to write more, but when it takes 30 minutes to write 3 sentences, and that with me sitting with him keeping him on task as best I can -- well, we're both done after that! lol.

Hmmm... So maybe I am just too critical! My dd6 writes so much nicer AND faster than him (not trying to compare... just couldn't help but observe it...)  that I've been getting more and more impatient with his penmanship and speed! But if I'm just being too critical, I'll try to take a chill pill. ?

[Ellie]

I would expect a 9yo without any learning issues to be able to write better than that. His grade level is irrelevant.

Perhaps it would be better to do something like Rod and Staff English, and have him do all the writing (for grammar and composition). The way that children become proficient in writing is by doing lots of it, all the time, every day. R&S English would accomplish that, and I think it would be less painful than the way you describe this one assignment. o_0

[Sk8ermaiden]

I would say the second example seems fairly close to what my daughter (young fourth) would write. His handwriting's a bit messy, but not beyond the pale. I find if DD doesn't practice her handwriting regularly, it goes down the tubes.

I don't have anything helpful to say on the time front. Writing was an absolute nightmare similar to what you describe, until her ADHD was diagnosed and treated. Now it's great and gets done in a reasonable time. But ANY type of learning disability is something I'd look into. If it's just writing that brings this out, then SOMETHING is going on. 

I also, while I continued trying to get writing into line, would keep up writing assignments via dictation. To keep him growing in that regard with structure, and sentence complexity and length, and vocabulary. No reason to let that wither on the vine just because he can't get it out on paper right now.

[wendyroo]

It would take my 9 year old son nowhere near half an hour to write one of those short paragraphs (probably no more than 5 minutes)...and his manuscript penmanship would be better (more consistent spacing and letter formation, and fewer copying mistakes).  Cursive still takes him longer, though still not half an hour per paragraph, and would be only slightly more legible than your son's.

OTOH, my son, despite a very high reading level, is incredibly resistant to reading longer works of literature, and he can't compose a paragraph (orally or written), much less an essay, to save his life.

Oh, and my son starts to get very cranky if asked to write more than 3-4 sentences, so even though his handwriting is strong, we still probably wouldn't be able to write three paragraphs in one sitting.

Wendy

 

[wendyroo]

5 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

Writing was an absolute nightmare similar to what you describe, until her ADHD was diagnosed and treated. Now it's great and gets done in a reasonable time. 

This is very true.  My son is also on ADHD meds, and without them his writing would be MUCH slower and sloppier.  In his case, it would be a general impulsivity and lack of focus, which would also greatly impact his ability to do any type of school work.  Without the meds, all his work in all the subjects would be slow, messy, full of mistakes and false starts, etc.

Wendy

[Sk8ermaiden]

It's like my daughter's brain just couldn't put it all together. My friend has a son in various therapies and she's been told that the amount of pre-planning that has to happen for writing makes it a very hard challenge for those with executive function issues. 

I didn't mention - in print my daughter (now) would have that done in 5-10 minutes per paragraph (though she would want breaks between paragraphs to do another subject or something - part of that is that we are still building writing stamina after years of it being so difficult), in cursive I could see a paragraph taking 20 minutes, but her cursive is very pretty. It still takes forever, but it's pretty. 

[4KookieKids]

4 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

This is very true.  My son is also on ADHD meds, and without them his writing would be MUCH slower and sloppier.  In his case, it would be a general impulsivity and lack of focus, which would also greatly impact his ability to do any type of school work.  Without the meds, all his work in all the subjects would be slow, messy, full of mistakes and false starts, etc.

Wendy

You know, this idea of adhd has been suggested to us a lot for a variety of issues that I ask questions about for this child, but the neuropsych who evaluated him wouldn't diagnose it because she said he's hyperfocused. I know that's part-n-parcel with adhd, but also haven't  wanted to pursue it too much further and seem like I'm wheedling to get a diagnosis I "want." 

[4KookieKids]

3 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

It's like my daughter's brain just couldn't put it all together. My friend has a son in various therapies and she's been told that the amount of pre-planning that has to happen for writing makes it a very hard challenge for those with executive function issues. 

I didn't mention - in print my daughter (now) would have that done in 5-10 minutes per paragraph (though she would want breaks between paragraphs to do another subject or something - part of that is that we are still building writing stamina after years of it being so difficult), in cursive I could see a paragraph taking 20 minutes, but her cursive is very pretty. It still takes forever, but it's pretty. 

 

Hmm... This is interesting, because he definitely struggles a lot with EF issues, and sees an OT for them (but there have been other things we've wanted to work on more pressing than handwriting when we're with the OT).

I know his cursive is messy, but he prefers it to print and it's actually much faster. It takes him roughly twice as long to print as write in cursive.

[Sk8ermaiden]

Ugh. That's hard. I think when it's clear the doc is operating under incorrect information, because as you said, hyperfocus can be a hallmark of ADHD, it's not fishing to get a second opinion. As someone who has it myself...meds are life-changing. I thought DD had escaped and I was so happy about it - but when I started to put the pieces together I realized hers just manifests totally differently from mine (I have the classic type more boys present with, while she has the classic "girl" ADHD.) Meds were a miracle for her.

[Ausmumof3]

It looks about right to me for boy handwriting.  It feels a little stilted but that could be because the kid wasn’t grabbed by the assignment.  It does seem like a long time but I think my oldest could have drawn it out that long at that age!

[4KookieKids]

So this is a sample of something he wrote just for fun yesterday. It makes me cringe a little, at the same time as busting up at his story itself (this is page 1, so just his introduction). Makes me realize just how much work he needs! When I sit next to him, and make him think before he writes, he writes so much better (spelling wise) but he wrote this relatively quickly (in just 10-15 min). So maybe the problem really is that it’s hard for him to keep track of all the different pieces of things involved in writing!

 

[Thewife]

I'm alittle late to the conversation but my daughter 9 writes about the same. We haven't started any writing yet because she is just now reading better. I'm going to start WWE 1 next week with her and her sister 7 almost 8 who picks up stuff a bit faster. We struggle enough it takes 5 hrs when it should take 30 min. to do most assignments. Mine has visual imparements that have held her back and she has trouble concentrating. 

[PeterPan]

On September 9, 2018 at 11:59 AM, 4KookieKids said:

So maybe the problem really is that it’s hard for him to keep track of all the different pieces of things involved in writing!

Yes, that's how it looks. You might try doing dictation or teaching him to type and see if the length, quality, or content of the narration change. 

Definitely way more than my ds with SLDs in reading/writing/math is writing, so don't feel so bad! 

[4KookieKids]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, that's how it looks. You might try doing dictation or teaching him to type and see if the length, quality, or content of the narration change. 

Definitely way more than my ds with SLDs in reading/writing/math is writing, so don't feel so bad! 

 

Yes, we've started separating out the actual physical act of writing part. So just this week, the same kid "wrote" this using google docs and voice-typing, and even EDITED it himself. It took him right around an hour because he kept stopping and re-dictating things about 10 times before finally giving up and just typing that one problem word himself (he can't yet say /r/ well, so voice typing does have a few challenges for him still). None the less, I feel like this is pretty decent for one hour worth of "writing" :

 

((  ))'s fun facts about 
The Ancient Romans 

The Romans are fascinating people. For instance, can you imagine having to beat 100,000
Celts with only 10,000 Romans? How did the Romans do it? The Romans were very
organized in battle, while the Celts were not.  

The Romans became excellent shipbuilders and sailed all over the sea conquering islands. They
were excellent fighters and were soon the greatest Empire in the ancient times. Julius Caesar
helped expand its Empire but he was power-hungry and was soon murdered by his own followers. 

The Romans had Gladiators that fought together in an arena against lions, bears, and other
wild animals, and sometimes even each other.  The Romans liked to see blood so they made
it so that the gladiator who lost was killed by the other Gladiator .

But even though the Romans were cruel, they built many amazing structures.They built
aqueducts that would carry water through the cities to houses. They built huge public baths so
everybody could get clean and they also built huge sculptures of famous Romans .

Thanks for reading ((  ))'s fun facts about Romans. If you like this, then read more of ((  ))'s fun
facts about the  ancient worlds. See you next time! 
 

Edited March 3, 2019 by 4KookieKids

[PeterPan]

This is stellar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So was he narrating from his history reading or using a curriculum or...

[4KookieKids]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

This is stellar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So was he narrating from his history reading or using a curriculum or...

 

He had just read most of the Horrible Histories book about Rome. 🙂

I was most pleased with his perseverance and his transition, "But even though..." He's never done something like that in his writing before!

Edited March 3, 2019 by 4KookieKids

[4KookieKids]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

This is stellar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

And thanks. 🙂 It's still a fair bit of work for him to narrate something like that and actually use google to edit/correct the mistakes that come with voice typing and a slight articulation issue still, but I feel like taking away the physical barrier of writing has helped him exponentially to be able to express himself, and it's also really helped his confidence. A few months ago, he dictated (with google voice) a simple slide presentation in German even. It had far more mistakes, but he was SO, SO proud of himself. I think this thing was taped up on our window for a months straight! lol. (The actual presentation had a big picture on each side/page.)


10 Fragen über Roboter 

1. Genau was ist ein Roboter?
Antwort:  Ein Roboter ist eine Maschine die Arbeit für Menschen übernimmt. Ein Roboter ist nicht wie ein Staubsauger, weil er viele Jobs auf einmal tun kann. 

2. Ist mein ferngesteuertes Auto ein Roboter?
Antwort: Nein, ein Roboter kann Dinge ohne Hilfe der Menschen tun. Mein ferngesteuertes Auto kann nicht von alleine fahren. 

3. Was alles kann ein Roboter tun?
Antwort: Ein Roboter kann viele Dinge machen,  wie  Vulkanen zu erforschen und dein Essen kochen. 

4. Kann ein Roboter laufen, sprechen, oder Musik spielen?
Antwort: Ja, und vieles anderes.

5. Hat ein Roboter Gefühle?
 Antwort: Nein, es ist eine Maschine. 

6. Kann ein Roboter denken?
 Antwort: Nein, weil es vorher programmiert ist. 

7. Kann ein Roboter hören?
Antwort: Ja, ein Roboter kann hören, aber das kann mein Computer auch. Das ist warum ich das hier schreiben kann. 

8. Hat ein Roboter ein Gehirn? 
Antwort: Nein, es hat kein echtes Gehirn, aber eine kleine programmierte C.H.I.P. das lässt es Logik tun, was wie denken sehr aussieht. 

9. Kann ein Roboter essen und schlafen?
Antwort: Ein Roboter kann nicht essen aber manche Roboter wie  Aibo, der Roboter Hund, sehen aus als ob sie schlafen, wenn ihre Batterien lehr sind.

10. Gibt es Roboter Tiere?
 Antwort: Ja, wie Aibo der Roboterhund. Du hast eben über ihm gelesen. Es gibt auch Roboter Katzen und Roboter Insekten. Manchmal nutzt mann die Insekten für spionieren. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by 4KookieKids

[RootAnn]

Just wanted to post & say my dd#1 who studies German enjoyed reading the slide descriptions your son dictated. I have a 9 yo d's who writes quite a bit, but his spelling, capitalization, and paragraph skills are horrid. I'm not working on them yet as we are still working on his fluent reading. (But, I know it comes in time when we spend enough effort on it.)

[madteaparty]

I have an 8 year old, so 3rd grade but I couldn’t  tell you because there’s nothing she writes that’s that long. Her writing (in school overseas, fwiw) has them writing a full sentence in response to what’s happening in a paragraph ( so, inferences), weekly dictations where they just fill in the blanks, and occasionally memorizing poems.