Next step for writing?

[eeyore]

Looking for suggestions - either specific curriculum or maybe advice for daily practices -  for the next steps in writing as I think about the coming (homeschool) year...

My DS is almost 11, dyslexic, and has anxiety, ADHD, SPD (normal IQ - psych thinks he is 'gifted' in some ways...I don't care just want to meet him where he is).  These issues do impact learning, but he has a great attitude and lots of motivation for 'learning practices'! This past year we got upper and lower case letter formation solid (finally!!!) and he's ready to move on to words/sentences.  But we're having a tough time transitioning from handwriting practice to writing...we've done some copywork and we are seeing good progress with oral narrations.  He is reluctant to put words on paper that he doesn't spell perfectly (#$%!?), but lately is pushing past that.  We're in AAS 2 for spelling and he does well with the lessons.  

A main issue is that it all falls apart when he has to write down original thoughts - reverts to capital letters, reversals, spelling words correctly deteriorates, etc.  The results, while I applaud the effort and am relieved he's doing it without tears and/or refusal, are not very legible - hubby can't actually read what he writes. 

Ideas or suggestions for where to go next?  Thoughts on realistic goals for a year's worth of progress?  I am the opposite of structured, and would love to unschool, but I've learned that DS thrives on short, predictable lessons for skills (we have a set 'learning routine' for these) and plenty of time for us to read aloud books and do math (his favorite) and read about history and learning to code and playing chess and games and...everything...he wants to know ALL.THE.THINGS. 

I have started to look at formal writing curriculum - but so far what I've seen seems either too high or too low (babyish for a 11yo). I'm open to curriculum or just a routine set of practices...

Sorry so long!  Thanks in advance! 

 

[nature girl]

Writing was my daughter's weakness as well...She had no problem coming up with her own stories, but getting them down on paper was a struggle. What eventually helped us was to have her re-tell short stories we'd read, or write summaries of non-fiction, focusing on introductory paragraphs, then the meat (which in the beginning was just a listing of facts) and then a concluding paragraph. So for animals I'd write headers, asking Where do they live/make their homes? What do they eat? What's the most interesting/unusual thing about them? etc. If he likes history, you could break out similar topics for him to jot down, that'll help him to organize all he's learned.

We eventually moved from short stories to retelling the plots of longer books...It frustrated her at first (she's also ADHD, and has a harder time organizing her thoughts), but writing outlines of plot points first really helped her figure out how to expand them. And then she'd do the same with her own stories, outlining them (the way a real author does!) and then fleshing them out. 

[Lecka]

Have you tried typing?  

[eeyore]

Naturegirl - what you are describing is what I'm thinking we will need to do, just haven't been able to picture how it will go, thanks! I think we'll need to have a concrete discussion on what to write, then prompts, then supports to elicit lists/short sentences of his own at first.  We really are starting with square one - just being willing to pick up the pencil and try to write sentence/words of his own. 

Lecka - I have not started him typing out of fear that he'd refuse to learn to handwrite...?  I think typing instead of writing is definitely in his future...but I want to see him get the letter formation more automatic first, if that's possible...But maybe we could do both at the same time...willingness and compliance will be key, though. 

 

[Pen]

I separate penmanship from composition. 

For composition I suggest you try Bravewriter Kids Write basic online class. And that you scribe for him (and/or perhaps use a recording or speech to text device  ) .

For penmanship we found manuscript print better than cursive—and my ds learned to do it well enough that he can use it for short response answers   Some dyslexics do better with cursive, but not mine  

For anything longer my ds learned to type. 

And increasingly he now uses dictation to a cell phone for essays and research papers. We got Dragon but the cell phone worked better for him. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, eeyore said:

He  

 

Site issues   with quotes and other things ...

It should be possible to work on typing and penmanship at the same time. 

If he has dysgraphia he will probably never be excellent at penmanship. use of typing can keep him from having his education slowed down by the problem area  

It would help if he can eventually write by hand enough to fill in a form, write a note to put physically where it can be seen, complete a non essay type exam, write math problems and answers clearly.  Otherwise typing is often more useful nowadays. 

[Pen]

For penmanship I would stay with copywork for now so he can follow what is correct. Does not need to think about spelling etc at same time  

For typing my son started with www.talkingfimgers.com. and then went to Typing Instructor Platinum for Kids. 

[PeterPan]

If you want his thoughts to come out, stop linking it to the motor control act of handwriting. It's clearly a disability for him to get his thoughts out onto paper, and you should be scribing and using tech and giving him access to dictation software and teaching him to type, all of the above.

This year is when my ds' IEP switched from having him *try* to write his thoughts to giving up and putting scribing in the IEP. There's a point where everybody goes ok, he tried, it's holding him back, move on, that's why tech exists. Let him write what means something to him, things that are special. My ds writes small amounts for signs for his projects. He writes a small amount (single words) for a personal journal. Using tech is not about giving up on handwriting. It's saying that the demands for output have gotten higher than what he can reasonably get out and that we WANT to see what's inside. So yes, separate them. Let his thoughts come out. 

Ben Foss has great videos on this btw.

[Lecka]

http://www.handwriting-solutions.com/dysgraphia.asp

Here is a website about dysgraphia. 

At a certain point it does get to be too long to wait around in handwriting, other skills do need to develop independently, that are usually dependent on handwriting.  

I have a 13-year-old and his handwriting has improved and it is good for some purposes, but for other purposes, it’s not good.  He needs something and typing works for him.

 

[Kanin]

Since your DS is going to be starting with single words and eventually sentences, I would start with descriptive writing - it's quite concrete, and may not require as much thought as other kinds of writing. I also highly suggest using graphic organizers... for EVERYTHING! He can start by filling out a very basic graphic organizer (single words), and then when he's ready, move on to turning a word or two into a sentence. 

In my class of dyslexic 9-11 year olds this year, we did:

1. I printed out the "visualizing and verbalizing" words from Lindamood-Bell. I put them up in a prominent spot by the board. The kids used those words ALL YEAR to generate descriptions.

2. They initially wrote descriptions of pictures so they didn't have to write *and* picture something in their own minds. If it was a picture of a cat, for example, they wrote "Cat" in the middle circle, and then a word or two in each "spoke" of the wheel. Like-  cute, brown fur, white whiskers, pointy ears." Your DS can use one or more words.

3. When they were ready, they filled out graphic organizers without using a picture, and then moved on to writing a sentence or two, and then by the end of the year, most were able to write a basic paragraph with some support.

4. We sometimes sprinkled in opinion writing, or writing about fun things - like video games, favorite places, what you would pack in your lunch if you could, etc. We didn't get as far as informational writing, I.e. Getting information from a text and then putting it into a graphic organizer... but that could be a goal for the next year!

Hope this helps. There are TONS of printable graphic organizers out there. This is just one example (I'd find one with fewer spots to write-  maybe have him write 3-4 words in all at first):  https://www.eduplace.com/graphicorganizer/pdf/wheel_eng.pdf

I also really recommend the book The Writing Revolution by  Judith Hochman: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Revolution-Advancing-Thinking-Subjects/dp/1119364914

You can read an article about her work here: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/

Hochman has another book about sentences, but I'm pretty sure it's out of print. I found a PDF of part of it, and I'm hoping it's not breaking any copyrights to put it here! There are fantastic pages for "sentence goals" and "paragraph goals." I LOVE LOVE LOVE her work, and I so wish this book was available!  Check out pages 10 and 54 for goals.  http://tapconyc.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/1/5/191529/the_hochman_method_09-15-2016-062048.pdf

Have fun!!! Starting to write is so exciting.

[Lecka]

Wow, what an interesting article!

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I printed out the "visualizing and verbalizing" words from Lindamood-Bell. I put them up in a prominent spot by the board. The kids used those words ALL YEAR to generate descriptions.

Just for people's trivia, the words that Mainer is talking about here are very similar to the prompts the speech therapy books use for attributes. They'll put them into question form, where V/V/Talkies uses the keyword and symbols, but it's still the same idea. And I think it's probably what EET is teaching, best as I can tell from looking online. I was looking for a link so you could see the pics. Sometimes you see them in the videos, if you watch videos on the gander publishing website. Anyways, Mainer is giving you a really valuable piece of advice here and it's this one little sentence so it's easy to miss. It's a BIG DEAL. To be able to describe something and get into words the attributes, the movement, etc. etc. is just HUGE. 

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

2. They initially wrote descriptions of pictures so they didn't have to write *and* picture something in their own minds.

V/V wants them to visualize, but you could also work on the language/composition component using the picture prompt and not removing it. Or do the magic step from Talkies and see the picture and then make it disappear. You could take turns building sentences. Describing what is going on in a picture has been a real challenge for my ds, with his mix of disabilities, but also it has a lot of carryover to real life. He now talks about his LIFE that way, which is amazing. 

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

I also really recommend the book The Writing Revolution by  Judith Hochman

Yup, I started a thread with a bunch of books on writing and reading comprehension that are being discussed on a FB group for SLPs I'm on. The Writing Revolution seems to be all the rage. I think our library had it on ILL, can't remember. I ordered stuff and some has started trickling in. Thanks for that pdf link! I'll go check it out. This is what the SLPs were discussing for sentence building Teacher's Guide to Effective Sentence Writing (What Works for Special-Needs Learners) Ironically it's a lot like our classical stuff here on the boards, and when you read the pdf/powerpoints for the guy's ASHA talks, he came up to speed on classical instruction methods as part of his work. 

[Kanin]

Peter Pan, I'll have to go check out Bruce Saddler's book. What frustrates me is there's no corresponding workbook to either his book or the Hochman book. I wish there was! I would totally write one, except it would probably not be allowed... hmm. Anyway, I know worksheets aren't everything, but it can be exhausting to generate original materials for every little thing. I think a teacher's guide to writing sentences/paragraphs for students with learning disabilities AND a student workbook would be so useful.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Wow, what an interesting article!

I think so, too!

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, eeyore said:

A main issue is that it all falls apart when he has to write down original thoughts - reverts to capital letters, reversals, spelling words correctly deteriorates, etc.  The results, while I applaud the effort and am relieved he's doing it without tears and/or refusal, are not very legible - hubby can't actually read what he writes. 

Ideas or suggestions for where to go next?  

1

Penmanship is not the same as writing for meaning. I would teach him to type.

I would NOT discourage or correct any writing he does that is not penmanship. When my son was at this stage (but younger at this same stage), he had a lot of difficulty with handwriting, and his spelling was so bad we couldn't read anything.

Dysgraphia is a catch-all term for the fact that handwriting is going to be like toting water with a leaky bucket. Some buckets are so leaky you can't count on them for much of anything (analogous to being able to fill in a form by hand at most), but other buckets do a good enough job for toting water as long as you don't need to store it--it seeps out slowly. Your son's issues are pretty severe from the sounds of it, and I don't think you'd want him to rely on a bucket that leaky to get his daily intake of water. 

There were probably at least half a dozen students I knew in high school who wrote in all caps. Teachers asked them to use larger capitals to indicate an understanding of what should be capitalized. 

I had to make most of my younger son's handwriting sheets. He didn't learn his handwriting in the same order or at the same pace as most kids. There is also software for making handwriting sheets--I think it's called Writestart or something like that. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mainer said:

Peter Pan, I'll have to go check out Bruce Saddler's book. What frustrates me is there's no corresponding workbook to either his book or the Hochman book. I wish there was! I would totally write one, except it would probably not be allowed... hmm. Anyway, I know worksheets aren't everything, but it can be exhausting to generate original materials for every little thing. I think a teacher's guide to writing sentences/paragraphs for students with learning disabilities AND a student workbook would be so useful.

It sounded a lot like Killgallon. My copy hasn't come yet, so we'll see. He has, now my brain is failing me. See that thread and see if I put a link. Somewhere he says those were example sentences. Oh, it was in the pdf I linked there. The pdf starts simpler, and what you realize is he had these CONCEPTS and he was just winging it and building it with his students. Then he codified it with his later book, but it really was just a work in progress with his students, a concept. That's a lot easier in a way anyway, at least with a student like mine. You almost can't find materials that fit my ds. Well when I go to the SLP community I can, sure.

That was the next step for me on the not reinventing the wheel thing, to see what was available in speech therapy materials. I got a book on conjunctions. You can sort of OG your sentence combining and make it multi-sensory when you try. You can use pictures and dice and anything you want. So I think getting it into multiple contexts and getting it engaging and real is more important than how perfect you are at it. I thought Saddler's toc created a good outline, and you see it in his pdf article too.

[eeyore]

It's awesome when you ask about one thing and get gently pushed to consider the bigger picture or other things you might have been trying to avoid. IRL, I think it's the mark of a true friend...so thanks, y'all. 

Mainer, I've got the download on the Hochman book - thanks for the links!  That sort of step-wise, explicit instruction is what I'm coming to understand we'll need.  I teach part-time at the university level, so I can really appreciate the need for a different approach to writing (and math, but that's another topic...) than what's currently being (mostly) used to 'prepare' students for college level writing...And it is interesting that Hochman's approach seems more closely aligned to what I understand about the classical education model... But I do wish her book came with a workbook or appendix with practice sheets or something!!  ?

We do separate handwriting (letter formation) from composition.  We just haven't made much progress on composition.  And I think the composition will need a lot more step-by-step goals and instruction then I thought.  Which is fine.  I'm just trying to figure out concrete next steps...how much to continue practicing letter formation/handwriting? How might we structure composition work? Is it time to start requiring more writing from DS during other subjects that I have been scribing for him (math) or we've been working orally/narrating (history, latin, etc.)? How to work our composition work into a regular, consistent routine (one of my own challenges...)?  We have used Bravewriter for literature discussions and copywork...but I've never successfully done any real composition type work with her material/model.  It might be me, but it's just too...open or abstract or something...

I agree, it is time to bring in some tech supports.  But I'm not sure yet that we're working with a disability in writing (dysgraphia) or just the ADHD/dyslexia, which is enough, sure! We just haven't had enough time with consistent, routine handwriting/writing practice for me to know that. Well, I also don't know much about the signs...DS has had a lot of behavioral challenges and I gave precedence to getting his reading solid (he's now at about a 4th grade reading level and steadily improving...). We began really working diligently on handwriting just this past year. I know, at 10yo, hard to comprehend...?

The cool thing about where DS is now is the progress he's made...behaviorally.  He is now totally on board with our learning practices, he's setting his own goals and now that anxiety-related melts are fading away (though that perfection-anxiety-negativity monster is still a factor...) he's making pretty rapid progress in a lot of areas. At this point, he really needs mom to step up her game! And I'm beginning to see that DS is going to need a mix of more challenge/acceleration in math, science, history, but lots of support and an incremental approach in reading/writing. 

 

[eeyore]

Ok - more questions - what is a 'graphic organizer'?  And the connection with "visualizing and verbalizing" and writing or the picture thing...I don't understand?  

It's interesting that the Hochman book, the parts I've read so far, does mention  oral work as an important component - even says a lot of the early exercises can be done strictly orally (but not only, certainly). We've been doing more narration work and I'm seeing it help with thinking/speaking/retention...is hoping that it will translate to writing just a bridge too far for a dyslexic/ld kid?  

[Kanin]

Hi eeyore!

A graphic organizer is like a simple outline. Graphic, because you see the information in a simple way, and organizer, just because it organizes information. You can use graphic organizers for studying, or as outlines for writing sentences and paragraphs. A good example of an elementary graphic organizer is this one: https://www.eduplace.com/graphicorganizer/pdf/cluster_web3.pdf

So, if your son is working on a writing prompt like "What is your favorite holiday?" He puts the holiday in the middle, say, Halloween, and then jots down a reason in each circle - candy, costumes, stay up late, etc. You can stop there, if that's enough writing, or have him turn a couple notes into sentences. Eventually he would move on to graphic organizers for writing paragraphs and essays. I think when I was in school, this kind of thing was called a word web or something like that.

Visualizing and Verbalizing is a book by Lindamood-Bell that helps with reading comprehension. It doesn't sound like your son struggles with this, but lots of kids have trouble visualizing while they read, so their comprehension suffers. V&V teaches them, step by step, how to visualize simple things (like a single simple illustration of a cat) all the way up to multi-paragraph texts. It's pretty cool.

V&V uses "structure words" to give kids "anchors" for visualizing. The words include: what, where, when, color, size, movement, perspective, mood, and some others. 

I suggested your son start writing descriptions of things because it's concrete and it also doesn't take that long ? My students always appreciated things that weren't a huge slog. At first, I suggest taking a picture (from the internet, from a calendar, from a book, etc) and having him fill out that graphic organizer I linked above. He should use the V&V words to help him if he needs ideas. My students would say, "I'm done!" And I'd look at their papers and say, Hmmm, have you told me the colors you see? What about the size? Where is this located?" And it would really help them to generate ideas. When he can consistently describe a picture, you can move on to him describing something from his life or his imagination - his favorite vacation, a pet he wants, an imaginary monster... ?

The Hochman book that you can buy on Amazon is amazing. The PDF is pretty helpful too - it has those writing progression checklists that I think are so helpful. I think teaching writing is really challenging because there's s just SO MUCH you can do... should do...? And it's overwhelming. A checklist helps me to see what should be done next, and I don' have to wrack my brain trying to figure out All Of Writing, lol. 

 

[Kanin]

Another thought - Hochman suggests writing in all subjects, not just in a specific writing time. So, if you're doing science or something, have him write a description of something you're working with in science - e.g., Friction is a force that slows objects down. Beavers have brown fur and big flat tails. Even in math, you could write. 

It sounds like you've got awesome routines down that really make your son feel confident. Yay! Maybe you could say something like, we're going to add a new layer to our schoolwork this year, and write a sentence after each lesson. Since a sentence after each lesson isn't much, he might be on board with it - and by the end of the day, you'd have 3-5 sentences written. Which, for an 11 year old with dyslexia, is huge!

[Heathermomster]

Dr. Charles Haynes gave a very good webinar about teaching dyslexics to write that is posted on the premium side of the Dyslexic Advantage blog.  Maybe consider joining the blog and viewing it.

By aged 8 yo, my DS was diagnosed with a reading/maths/written expression SLDs.  We flirted with the keyboard during grade 4 and half of grade 5, and then we got serious.  I pulled DS from a regular classroom and taught that boy to type.  By 7th grade, he typed everything except math.   Fast forward to today, his copywork is legible; however, hand him a pencil and ask him to write information straight from his head and he is toast.  He now resorts to a pencil grasp that I couldn't pay him to use 6 years ago.  When tested by an NP back in April, his vocabulary and expression are superior, but grammar, punctuation, and spelling don't reflect his IQ.  The dyslexia combined with working memory and motor deficiencies are serious, and my DS gets around that by typing.

Check out the mindmapping app called Inspiration.  We use it on the iPad, and it is amazing.  Yea, if making your child practice penmanship is important to you, go for it; however, save it until the end of the day and go no longer than 10 minutes.  Memoria Press sells software called Start Write that may be used to create copywork sheets.

Teach him to type.  Set up a workstation that is appropriate for him and make the typing instruction a priority.  Use his currency as a reward.

Scribe for him.  Even if he can type or use dictation software, you need to scribe and take notes for him.  He needs to internalize the process of writing first.  As he gets comfortable, he will assume the role of writing. Be gentle about corrections.  I can't think of anything else at the moment.

[Heathermomster]

I just had more thoughts.  He will need to be comfortable using a thesaurus and a dictionary.  Dyslexia makes the use of each very slow, so maybe consider using electronic versions.  

After reading remediation is completed, you may want to have him take a word roots class.  He can also practice vocabulary for free online at freerice.com.

ETA:  Absolutely write across the curriculum.  DS started keeping a WTM style history notebook in 7th grade.  As he typed new information, he appended to existing files.  We later printed the files and stored them in a binder.  He typed his timeline using timeline software.  

[kbutton]

Do you have a good sense of what your son's expression skills are if he doesn't have to do the writing? Dysgraphia and disorder of written expression are often lumped together, but one is more about the physical writing and the other about actually organizing thoughts and getting them on paper. A student can have both, but they don't necessarily have both.

If you just need "ordinary" levels of intervention to help get better traction and a better plan for writing in the midst of other challenges, the ideas mentioned here are great, and there are some more things as well--The Reader's Handbook (varying color levels that span different grades, available super inexpensively used) help with organizing information you read and are good to scaffold writing about what you read (lots of graphic organizers there!). My son calls it The Writer's Handbook instead, lol! Critical Thinking Company has a series of Building Thinking Skills books and Critical Thinking books that include graphic organizers and activities to use with them. Wordsmith Apprentice and similar books have lots of writing component exercises (easy to scribe)--some of what is in the Hochmann books would be in there (from what I could see from the sample linked in the thread), but it also has grammar bits and lots of fun things like captioning pictures. Some of those exercises would make good probes to see if your son needs more work in a certain area. Also, Easy Writing by the Easy Grammar people has a lot of sentence writing techniques and sentence combining techniques that are ready made and provided in very black and white ways. Your son could look at the exercises and type them instead of writing them by hand. 

For a basic tool to start writing paragraphs, this TpT resource has been a good thing for my kids: https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Interactive-Research-Papers-Essays-for-Common-Core-Writing-Grades-4-6-1038982   Research paper is in the title, but it starts with one paragraph stuff. One main way this packet teaches writing is by having the student take apart an essay--starting with the essay, they are given the source material, etc., and the packet guides them through creating note cards, outlines, etc. to see how the essay was written before they use the same tools to write essays of their own. 

If you think you are going to need more heavy-duty language work to support written expression, I would lean toward therapy materials that can take you through various stages and lead you into more complicated work. Several of us have discussed Mindwings products on other threads (autism and narrative language thread, etc.), and I ordered some products from the Story Grammar Marker line to work with my son. Mindwings really breaks down language stuff into six strands and has diagrams to show parts and pieces of language within those six strands. Within the product line, they have tools that work on all six strands and are the spine for the program (depending on age, Story Grammar Marker, Thememaker, etc.), and then they have smaller targeted products to work close up on areas where kids tend to struggle. For instance, my son is going to be using the Critical Thinking Triangle set. 

Good luck! I think that a lot of things go into writing well, and the list of things that students can trip up on can be tricky to parse out. But if you start someplace and see problems, this is a good place to have people help you troubleshoot what you are seeing. 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, eeyore said:

We do separate handwriting (letter formation) from composition.  We just haven't made much progress on composition.  And I think the composition will need a lot more step-by-step goals and instruction then I thought.  Which is fine.  I'm just trying to figure out concrete next steps...how much to continue practicing letter formation/handwriting? How might we structure composition work? Is it time to start requiring more writing from DS during other subjects that I have been scribing for him (math) or we've been working orally/narrating (history, latin, etc.)? How to work our composition work into a regular, consistent routine (one of my own challenges...)?  We have used Bravewriter for literature discussions and copywork...but I've never successfully done any real composition type work with her material/model.  It might be me, but it's just too...open or abstract or something...

 

By keeping them separate, I mean that they need to be separated in the reality of how he is working on them, not only in your intentions. 

Because of your description quoted below:

23 hours ago, eeyore said:

es'! This past year we got upper and lower case letter formation solid (finally!!!) and he's ready to move on to words/sentences.  But we're having a tough time transitioning from handwriting practice to writing...we've done some copywork and we are seeing good progress with oral narrations.  He is reluctant to put words on paper that he doesn't spell perfectly (#$%!?), but lately is pushing past that.  We're in AAS 2 for spelling and he does well with the lessons.  

 A main issue is that it all falls apart when he has to write down original thoughts - reverts to capital letters, reversals, spelling words correctly deteriorates, etc.  The results, while I applaud the effort and am relieved he's doing it without tears and/or refusal, are not very legible - hubby can't actually read what he writes. 

 

I came to the conclusion that the 2 types of writing are not sufficiently separated for him. 

It sounds like he would need you to scribe for him so that he can work on his composition skills. In time, typing or computer speech to text may be able to take the place of you as scribe. 

For someone having as much trouble with the mechanics of writing as from your description your son is having, even one sentence per each class every day would be a huge amount to do if he has to both think of what he wants to express, and also must physically get that on to paper. Perhaps he could start that process by just filling in a graphic organizer with a few words, gradually working up to a written sentence over the course of the year. 

I strongly suggest that you work on composition skills completely independent from penmanship, not as a transition. I think kbutton’s analogy to a leaky bucket is wonderful  I understand that you want him to be able to spell well and write legibly, but he may not be able to do that well enough to effectively work on composition any time soon (if ever), and in the meantime may be getting behind on areas of academics that may be more his strengths because they are being tied to his weaknesses.

You wrote:

But we're having a tough time transitioning from handwriting practice to writing....  

I suggested a BW online class with you scribing because it might help to jumpstart his composition work. Moreover, having an outside teacher might help. It is possible that it is not a good fit for him. However, given the problems you have described, it may be an excellent fit. 

[Pen]

As to time to spend on each, it is hard for an outsider to know what would be doable for your family.  Based on my experience with my own child, I’d say perhaps:

5-10 minutes/day penmanship;

10-30 minutes per day typing (longer if he wants to do more);

2 or 3 15 minutes /day sessions of composition daily for a total of 30-45 minutes. Longer or more if he wants more. ETA: this time would be with you scribing for him.

If he does a BW class, then an intense focus on just that class (and keeping up on math) for its duration. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Pen

[Pen]

I also think you could consider what he will likely have to write by hand  and focus your hand writing practice toward those skills. (Forms in doctors’ offices, for example. )

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

For someone having as much trouble with the mechanics of writing as from your description your son is having, even one sentence per each class every day would be a huge amount to do if he has to both think of what he wants to express, and also must physically get that on to paper. Perhaps he could start that process by just filling in a graphic organizer with a few words, gradually working up to a written sentence over the course of the year.  

 

Totally agree with this! Mom could also write half a sentence, and have him fill in the other half, if one sentence is too much. I also agree with the recommendations to scribe. Many of my students needed me to scribe almost everything for months, and then I could back off a little bit and have them write a couple words, and then eventually move on to writing a sentence.  Lots of times I would write 3-4 sentences, and they would write 1.

 

 

[eeyore]

Thanks for these suggestions and specific links and ideas!  I'll be going through each of them...Honestly, I would not have thought to start with just notes - so thanks for the detailed explanation Mainer.  

Apologies, I haven't yet taken the time to figure out that handy quote feature! 

Pen, I take your point about intentions to separate vs what DS is actually experiencing...(can't help hearing the Sorry Ms. Jackson song in my head...). 

I've heard that there's ld in expressive type language and writing and/or the physical act - I just don't know for sure where we are yet.  Or whether we are dealing with delayed fine motor (that's definitely there and has been a struggle, with slow progress over the years...) and adhd/anxiety issues. But it's time to make more progress, and I know we'll get more information...

DS talks about picturing things that he hears (he closes his eyes to do it during our read alouds if it's not a book with pictures) and he's got serious imagination/pretend games/makes videos of plush toys having adventures, etc. His expressive language orally is good - great vocabulary, loves words and word play, has a very good memory for anything in a story-like/narrative form. But I don't know if that rules it out in written expression...

Heathermomster - thanks for sharing about your DS and where he is now.  If that's where my DS ends up - I'll be happy.  It'll be like my attitude to reading - we're going to work on building reading abilities to get that as high a level as possible, while not letting it stand in the way and encouraging audio books, etc. so that he gets the pleasure/benefits without the struggle. DS is so eloquent on this - he told me just yesterday that he likes his current book and he does feel proud of his reading and wants to keep reading, but when there's more than 1 or 2 words on a page that he has to stop to sound out and struggles with then it's harder to remember the story and follow what's happening and he has to re-read it again and that gets boring. Seriously, when I listen to this kid he helps me learn how to teach him! 

So,  yeah, y'all are right, it's time to bring in typing and other supports and I can do that (I'm taking deep breaths here) and continue to work on writing by hand and use the step-by-step approach mainer and others have outlined.  

Pen - I'm going to look again at the BW online classes...I've resisted that route b/c...I don't know why.  More structure might be what we need even for the composition with mom scribing strategy (as in, mom might need more structure, too! ?).  And I think that DS would actually enjoy getting to be creative if I'm there to scribe/type. 

Ok, last, not totally sarcastic question.  How do y'all fit it all in? I'm a board lurker...and I'm super impressed by what so many here are doing with their kiddos (in the learning challenges board, I mean, specifically). I'd already decided to make writing progress a main goal of this coming year...but I don't want it to take over - DS has such enthusiasm now for so much of what we do that we both enjoy (latin, history, good books, games, he's starting to learn to code (super basic, but real html/css/javascript and finding out it's actually quite time intensive)...

[Pen]

We did not fit it all in.

Usually there was a single remediation focus each year. 

We never did Latin.

I dropped penmanship at around the age your son now is when it became clear that the time expenditure and exhaustion it caused was not worth the results.

Many subjects, especially history got done via audiobooks and or documentaries. Audio books got listened to while on the road to therapies and at other times. We have audio books playing several hours most days while doing other things  .

Typing, in the beginning, got done between IEP special sessions at the public school. Later he did it as a fun game. 

Interestingly, now even touch typing seems to be becoming out moded by 2-thumb cellular phone typing. However, when ds went to public for 8th grade he was 2nd best typist in his class which was a big help managing work load. 

[Pen]

One thing I dropped generally was the idea that WTM classic approach would be a good fit for my particular child. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, eeyore said:

Pen - I'm going to look again at the BW online classes...I've resisted that route b/c...I don't know why.  More structure might be what we need even for the composition with mom scribing strategy (as in, mom might need more structure, too! ?).  And I think that DS would actually enjoy getting to be creative if I'm there to scribe/type. 

 

BW is not without structure, however the structure is different than a standard system of starting with an outline .  

IRL I use something like the BW system and or bubble organizing (which is like the graphic organizers) to write, so it is not foreign to me.

I was not successful with standard outlines for school papers as actually helpful. I could do one for its own sake if it was required, but never found that a helpful way to write  

both my son and I are basically good writers dealing with dyslexia and dysgraphia type issues. So

different people are helped by different things and that can even change at different times. 

I don’t know how much the parent teacher method of writing affects what programs can be used. But an online BW could allow a try on that even if it is not your own writing method. If you do decide to try it and they have an open summer class you might consider it now. To get a lot out of it took a lot of time. It started off very slow, but then sped up a lot. 

I had had some examples of what ds did with it posted here, but it probably disappeared with the site revamp. 

My ds has written for Stone Soup which might be findable if you want to see an example of what a dyslexic kid could do using technology and a basically BW system. 

[PeterPan]

On fitting it in, I agree we don't. We have things we focus on and things that slide. Sometimes it's cleaning or cooking or our health. We've done two months now of language and no math. Zero, on purpose. His language issues were that important.

Consider whether you want him writing original right now or retelling content. Personally I think retelling content (paragraphs, stories, articles) is fine for this age, up through 9th even. Yes if he has oral narrative get it down. Oral can lead to written. Outline, debate. You can outline with the Inspiration software starting visually with the map and toggling to the outline. If he's that visual that he's talking about it, you want to harness those strengths. 

Have you actually read WTM? It might give you ideas. If you read widely then you'll see the underlying approaches in materials and be more flexible knowing why they would work or how you could adapt them.

Michael Gravois has amazing organizers for writing. The Mindwing stuff was made by an SLP working in a dyslexia school and it goes through narrative and expository writing. She has tons of videos on the site to let you come up to speed.

[eeyore]

We'll definitely have to prioritize. Thanks for sharing what y'all do and what you drop. I have read WTM - I'll check it out again with an eye specifically to writing.  Funny, I have affinities for both the more classical, WTM approach and the unschooling insights...but that's for me to geek out on.  For SN kiddo, I try to just figure out what works best for him. The latin/history/lit focus we've had so far (read-aloud/visual/audio heavy) has been driven by DS and also my interests - DS loves ancient history and we got stuck there for some time...b/c pyramids and gladiators and greek myths and east/west roman empire and such...  And that led to him wanting to learn latin and he loves it...weird, but latin is so consistent phonetically, that given our very gentle trajectory he's had a lot of success with it (we use GSWL and the audio lessons). 

I am really intimidated about moving forward, but this thread and y'alls advice has helped - I think I need to really break down the skills/goals we're working on in each part - handwriting, spelling, composition, typing (!)  etc and make sure, as Pen you mentioned, that we're targeting what I think we are! 

I wish I knew now what level of supports/trajectory we're going to end up dealing with...just like with the dyslexia and adhd, I'm waiting on a nice, objective blood test!  Or at least a crystal ball! ?

[PeterPan]

You can run genetics and see how many genes are affected and to what extent. Personally I think if it's clinically diagnosable you should assume significant support is need and be pleasantly surprised if not.

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You can run genetics and see how many genes are affected and to what extent. Personally I think if it's clinically diagnosable you should assume significant support is need and be pleasantly surprised if not.

 

 

 

I did not realize that the things mentioned in first post would show on genetic testing. Can they now see markers for adhd, dyslexia, spd, and anxiety showing up on genetic tests? 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

I did not realize that the things mentioned in first post would show on genetic testing. Can they now see markers for adhd, dyslexia, spd, and anxiety showing up on genetic tests? 

Yes, I've posted before a link to a study (and I'm sure there are more) outlining at least 12 genes involved in dyslexia. The anxiety is at least connected to the TPH2 gene, which is also easily seen in the least expensive 23andme testing. I'm not sure about SPD, but yes there are lots and lots of genes (23, 81, depends on what you're reading) involved in autism and many of those show up on the 23andme testing. We're participating in the SPARK study, so they're running them that way too.

So yes, I was literally saying you could run 23andme, actually quantify how many of the known genes causing dyslexia the person has, look at the chart where they correlate the genes to what aspects of dyslexia they cause, see if the person is hetero or homozygous, and get some sense of why the severity is there. Yes, for $69 and some legwork you can do that. 

I don't know where they're at with ADHD genes. There's stuff that popped up in the promethease report saying greater risk, but I'm not sure if they've nailed that down. There's discussion of the role of tyrosine, which is part of the methylation cycle and something there are known genes for. So yeah, definitely paths there, just maybe not all ironed out yet. There's big money and lots of big brains trying to find biomarkers that they can run blood or saliva for and get early diagnosis of autism. It's a big, big thing right now. It's just there's so much VARIETY, with so many paths, that it's not tidy.

And on the anxiety, as others have said, there's not just one path or presentation. If the cause is the TPH2 gene, then yes easily identifiable with genetics. For others, I don't know.

 

[Pen]

Hmm. Don’t want to derail this thread but we might be able to get some more info in that case while still having some privacy perhaps as to what we find. 

[Guest]

Post withdrawn. Comments posted in new thread. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Hmm. Don’t want to derail this thread but we might be able to get some more info in that case while still having some privacy perhaps as to what we find. 

We've got another thread on genetics testing. It can be worth doing, but it's a lot to sort through. They're running SNPs, not whole genes so it's just tons of data.

[exercise_guru]

I posted in another thread about dysgraphia and the writing process some of that information might be useful. One idea you could pursue is to consider how to get the initial ideas and sentences into text. Then let your student correct the paragraphs and sentences into a more readable form. 

For this I have found dictation using an IPAD and notes plus to be the most useable. I also really like the Myscript stylus app as it reads my sons handwriting with a sylus and puts it into legible text he can then edit.  

Over time I am working to improve my sons typing skills as well. 

In addition we do editing books and I Am trying to purse some recommendations given to me in another thread on writing. I am still getting going on that. 

[exercise_guru]

I had a bit more time to write and I searched to see if I could find a previous post regarding the process we have gone through but alas to no avail. IF you can search back to my previous posts ( tough since the upgrade) you can find out the entire process we did and there are some excellent dysgraphia threads in there. 

My son has had fine motor issues since preschool. We did hours of playdough, scissors, and handwriting without tears. When he was 9 I switched to Getty & Dubay as a handwriting method and I really really like it. I decided to look at my sons handwriting and find any letters that were legible from the existing method or that would transfer easily to the new system. Then I taught Getty and Dubay. we practaced the entire summer from March to September. His  upper body did not have enough stability so we practiced whole shoulder writing which I highly recommend ( google is your friend there) it is more legible and far more reasonable to master.  practice laying under a table writing on his back or writing on a white board on the wall.  I really love Getty and Dubay and I also use these pencils because they are the easiest for the motor system and were recomended by a handwriting specialist. She  told me that they would improve my sons legibility by making clean lines without breaking and training him in a consistent pressure on the paper. I have to say she was correct and that combined with the details above have made the biggest difference. Here is the link to the pencils. Paper Mate Mates 1.3mm Mechanical Pencils, 12 Colored Barrel Mechanical Pencils unfortunately the erasers pop off everywhere and can't be replaced so keep them in a jar on the work area. My son uses them exclusively at school and I have to buy packs and packs of them at staples in the back to school sale because the erasers pop off. 

When he returned to school his handwriting was far more legible and I thought we were on the other side and he would write fluidly. Well its a year or so later and we are still trouncing along with writing fluidly and legibly. Even copy work is still labored this is after Vision Therapy and the likes its legible but slow . It is very difficult to rehabilitate the motor dysgraphia area. I am still working on that and based on his teachers recommendation have really pushed typing as an alternative way to get the letters out of his brain and on paper but using the getty and duby method was a huge breakthrough for us and I highly recommend it. it produces smooth and fluid handwriting and is very legible but if the letter formation you used is not ball and stick ( think handwriting without tears) then stay with it. 

 

now jumping to today I noticed a similar experience that the legibility suffers when it moves to getting original thoughts on paper. The myscript ipad app is good but some of it is just training tolerance for inaccuracy. I try to go at this a few different ways so that it doesn't get discouraging. We work on Typing as a motor project. We work on dictation and I am allowed to spell something if needed. We work on free writing where you just get your ideas down for 5 minutes on any subject not focusing on capitlization, periods, spelling etc. We work on editing books I don't have the one we use but its something like This I cover one of these areas 30 minutes 3 times a week and rotate through different aspects. 

Also my son who just turned 11 did Fast Forword at home with me sitting by him. We have an awesome online coach and that makes it much more affordable even though it is still around $1300. It took us 3 months for level 1 and 3 months for level 2 and was a dedicated effort daily for 30-40 minutes each morning 5 days a week.  I can't say that it has improved his written expression because I haven't accessed that yet but he went up 3 standard deviations on all of the Auditory tasks in the auditory booth. He went from grade level reading to a lexile of 1350 and his auditory memory went up 2 standard deviations and is now at normal for his age. I am hoping that his will translate to to improved recall and fluidity in the writing process that we are going to start working on now. All of his state testing came back vastly improved as well. I believe that fast forword helped to bridge the gap in his auditory processing system. This really shows up in his verbal expression that has improved greatly. His teacher commented on his insightful comments in class and how much his verbal expression and speach giving skills had taken off after finishing level 1( she didn't know we were doing fast forword)  The writing process combines all of those auditory processing skills, language skills, motor skills and memory skills so it makes sense that it would be slower to develop. I will report back when I have a better idea on his writing. 

[eeyore]

Exercise guru - Thanks so much for sharing details about y'alls process!!  I haven't tried a mechanical pencil - but we have some laying around so I will experiment!  We have worked our way through handwriting without tears (my son and I call it handwriting with tears...and at least we've gotten to the point that we can joke about demanding a refund or suing the company for false advertising ?)We've done the first level and we're now doing the second level workbook (printing power?).  I'll check out the getty and dubay, though!  What you describe as a writing routine is where we need to start - I'm working on expanding our writing time to add in more practice, and also considering composition-type work (where I scribe) and we do oral narration. So seeing what/how much time you all spend is helpful! 

 

[exercise_guru]

HWT was not a great fit for either of my younger kiddos. I can't remember what I taught my two older daughters with but they were quite easy to teach. 

I found that HWT is stick straight up and down and doesn't follow the natural angle of your arm as it sweeps accross the page. if you read some of the older dysgraphia posts ( there are some excellent ones with awesome insight from some very cool people here) you will read more about the process we went through but after consulting numerous specialists I met a handwriting specialist who turned me onto 1. whole shoulder writing practacing on a white board on the wall 2. Italic writing which is Getty and Dubay 3. those large mechanical pencils that don't break and produce a very clear line. 

When we switched to G&D we found that it was much more ergonomic. My sons writing is far more legible and fluid and it doesn't popcorn all over the page. There is still a glitch somewhere  when the motor system has to work with the auditory recall system in my sons brain because I noticed if he is overly fatigued or writing new thoughts on paper the handwriting goes downhill and regresses. Its something I am still working on. I actually just started a similar thread last month https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/674459-i-need-a-summer-writing-intervention-program/ but we haven't been able to implement it because we are finishing up intensive therapies for listening, auditory and articulation and they are taking all of our energies. I will circle back to it eventually. I have a hard time cramming everything in and keeping cooperation high. Last summer was 100% handwriting and Getty and Dubay. My son has CAPD so we are intensely working on auditory processing. 

 

As far as G&D you can search previous threads but I basically just took every letter my son could write comfortably from HWT ,,,,,,,, this is from memory but ----

HWT- l f t i k s and told him he was free to write those with a slight slant and practiced the slant.

Then we worked intensely on the getty and dubay a o c q d e g

and then later so he didn't get confused p b h n

Then I taught him to curve the letters that curve in getty like u y j 

He actually took to it quite quickly because it is so much more natural. Still we worked all summer and when we went back for 4th grade the teacher said she could read his writing fine and wasn't sure what the big deal was. My son had a very successful year and I had hoped that the practace at school would be enough to cement the handwriting but its still a process.