Latin: Lukeion, Veritas Press or Schole Academy?

[Homemama2]

My son will be in 9th in the fall, and has not taken any Latin.  Could he start Lukeion or VP without any Latin and be successful?  .  He was a highly motivated student in elementary school...then middle school hit and he suddenly didn't care about grades or what kind of job he did on any of his work. He's maturing and definitely coming out of that, but I'm not sure he's 100% where I'd like him to be. ? He has been talking to some friends and realizing he needs to stop screwing around and start putting forth some effort again, and has asked to do Latin.  Right now, he's wanting to be a lawyer, and I'm trying to find challenging courses without overwhelming him

Schole Academy looks like another good option but I'm not sure if the slower pace is a good thing or a bad thing.  Will I regret it if I put him in a slower paced class in the end?  I have never taken Latin, so I feel clueless about what end results I should be looking for.

[serendipitous journey]

Lukeion Latin I is intended for students with no prior Latin, so he could certainly take that and be successful, and it will be challenging enough to provide a real sense of accomplishment.  Folks on the WTM boards really like the instructors at Lukeion, and I've found that online class formats really encourage my older fellow to step up and take more ownership of, and responsibility for, his work. 

Of course maybe it is in online work that your DS was becoming less careful.  I wouldn't fret too much about that, if he's motivated now: it is incredibly common for middle school boys to sort of "check out" on schoolwork, which isn't inherently rewarding to them and doesn't seem relevant.  Kudos on having him realize that his school matters!

I haven't any information about VP. 

[Homemama2]

48 minutes ago, serendipitous journey said:

Lukeion Latin I is intended for students with no prior Latin, so he could certainly take that and be successful, and it will be challenging enough to provide a real sense of accomplishment.  Folks on the WTM boards really like the instructors at Lukeion, and I've found that online class formats really encourage my older fellow to step up and take more ownership of, and responsibility for, his work. 

Of course maybe it is in online work that your DS was becoming less careful.  I wouldn't fret too much about that, if he's motivated now: it is incredibly common for middle school boys to sort of "check out" on schoolwork, which isn't inherently rewarding to them and doesn't seem relevant.  Kudos on having him realize that his school matters!

I haven't any information about VP. 

Thanks so much for this.  I saw on Veritas' site that they recommended a Latin Transition before Latin 1, and they use the same book at Lukeion so I wasn't sure.  He just took his first online class
(a summer school informal logic class) and really enjoyed the online format and I did notice he put forth a lot more effort, so hopefully this will be a good fit for him.  :)

 

[Corraleno]

DS did Lukeion Greek 1-4 and Latin 1-2 with no prior experience in either language and aced every class. He did work really hard at it, but the entry level classes are designed for students with no prior experience. Lukeion says on their website that they don't recommend years of Latin study in elementary and middle grades, and that students with prior experience only have a head start of a few months or so in their classes, after which everyone is at much the same level. I watched most of the Latin 1 lectures with DS,  and I would say that description is accurate. For the first couple of months it was obvious which kids had prior experience, because they were the ones answering all the questions instantly and correctly. But by the end of the first semester, many of the other kids had caught up, and by the end of the year you could no longer tell which kids had prior experience and which had started from scratch.

We are big Lukeion fans. Our experience with them (classes in Greek, Latin, grammar, and literature, and archaeological tours of Greece, Italy, and Turkey) were the absolute highlights of our homeschooling years. Lukeion literally changed DS's life and instilled a passion for languages and linguistics that he plans to pursue all the way to a PhD. I cannot recommend them highly enough. ❤️

[Homemama2]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

DS did Lukeion Greek 1-4 and Latin 1-2 with no prior experience in either language and aced every class. He did work really hard at it, but the entry level classes are designed for students with no prior experience. Lukeion says on their website that they don't recommend years of Latin study in elementary and middle grades, and that students with prior experience only have a head start of a few months or so in their classes, after which everyone is at much the same level. I watched most of the Latin 1 lectures with DS,  and I would say that description is accurate. For the first couple of months it was obvious which kids had prior experience, because they were the ones answering all the questions instantly and correctly. But by the end of the first semester, many of the other kids had caught up, and by the end of the year you could no longer tell which kids had prior experience and which had started from scratch.

We are big Lukeion fans. Our experience with them (classes in Greek, Latin, grammar, and literature, and archaeological tours of Greece, Italy, and Turkey) were the absolute highlights of our homeschooling years. Lukeion literally changed DS's life and instilled a passion for languages and linguistics that he plans to pursue all the way to a PhD. I cannot recommend them highly enough. ❤️

Wow!  Thanks for the reply!  I love that you mentioned how the kids all evened out by the end of the year.  That's helpful to know.  And I love hearing what a great fit it was for your family.  How awesome!

[bfw0729]

Do the students learn to converse and read/write in Greek in the upper levels? Would they be able to visit Greece and interact with the natives?

[serendipitous journey]

3 hours ago, bfw0729 said:

Do the students learn to converse and read/write in Greek in the upper levels? Would they be able to visit Greece and interact with the natives?

Nope!  Lukeion Greek is Classical Greek.  But they'd be able to read the alphabet. 

My little one, when we started learning Latin, asked me at bedtime one night if he'd be able to talk with "the Latins."  ?   At least there are still Greeks around to chat with ...

ETA: you know, it turns out there's a crazy amount of change in the Greek language even during the "classical" period.  Homeric, Attic, and Koine are three of the most essential forms, with 'round about a thousand years of history & language evolution between them.  I gather that Homeric Greek is really better thought of as "epic poetry" Greek, because it was used for epic poetry even of different eras; and that there were specific forms of Greek commonly used in, say, theater.  But that may be stretching it -- I don't know for sure. 

[Penelope]

Another option is Wilson Hill. Though with the extra hefty fees starting next year, I don’t know how popular it will be for taking one class at a time there. They use Latin Alive like Schole does, but I thought I read that Schole is slowing their pace down even more. I’m not sure about that.

I prefer WHA over VP in general, but I haven’t used VP recently. If I had a ninth grader starting Latin I would probably use VP again, just because I think using Wheelocks and completing the grammar over two years rather than three would be preferable for a high school student. 

No experience with Lukeion, but do they even have spots for Latin 1 for the fall? They always seem to fill up so fast. 

[serendipitous journey]

7 hours ago, Penelope said:

No experience with Lukeion, but do they even have spots for Latin 1 for the fall? They always seem to fill up so fast. 

Yep.  4 seats in almost-full classes, and they apparently just added another class: scroll down to Fall 2018 here.  There are spots in Latin 1b for the spring -- this is the second semester for that class.

[Omma]

Ok, I have a question about Lukeion....Do they allow adults to audit their Latin and Greek classes?

I have just about finished Henle Year 1 (the purple book) and wanted to do Memoria Press Online Academy Henle II, but they won't allow adults to even watch archives as an auditing student. 

Thanks,

Brenda

[serendipitous journey]

12 minutes ago, Omma said:

Ok, I have a question about Lukeion....Do they allow adults to audit their Latin and Greek classes?

I have just about finished Henle Year 1 (the purple book) and wanted to do Memoria Press Online Academy Henle II, but they won't allow adults to even watch archives as an auditing student. 

Thanks,

Brenda

Yes!  I believe they allow/encourage parents to learn alongside their children if they wish (though not interacting in class if the adult is not enrolled) and they encourage adults to study Latin with them.  This is from their Latin info. page:  "If you have a student aged 13 or 14 or even older...or if you as an adult would like to take these languages: rejoice! 'Older' is the perfect age to start Latin or Greek at The Lukeion Project." 

RE auditing: from their course info page: "Audit status: students may attend and participate in live classes and discussion boards. They may have full access to readings. Auditors have no graded elements (quizzes, exams, essays, papers, etc.). View audit tuition rate. "Audit" means come to class, listen, enjoy - no course responsibilities whatsoever!"

[Omma]

Thanks for the quick reply!  That is exciting that they will allow adults, first of all.  But perhaps I cannot audit as they do not allow auditing of language classes, which I assume means no auditing Latin.  I am very much intrigued, but a little scared.  I have a big collection of Latin resources (including Wheelock), but I am not as fast a memorizer as I used to be (although I do have a great understanding of the grammar involved, since I studied linguistics with a focused interest in grammatical analysis!)  ?

[Wishes]

I started Lukeion 1 almost two years ago as an adult. It was very good but I needed a solid two hours a day to get an A from the class (maybe 1.5 on the weekends). There's probably people who would be able to do this in less time but for me, it was very time-consuming. I asked if they might come up with an adult class that could be stretched out more. She said they hoped to, someday.

[crazyforlatin]

Not to muddy the waters for you but CLRC takes Latin grammar a little slower with the 4th year reading material from various authors. I find Anne Van Fossen very open to working with students should a problem arise or accommodations needed. We haven't taken Latin with CLRC but have taken other courses such as Arabic and Greek. I can see how finishing up Wheelock in 2 years can be too intense for some students. DD made a connection with Mrs. Barr and happens to love languages, so she was highly motivated. I would often complain about the speed and lack of time needed to absorb the material, but DD vigorously defended the schedule. I'm not as enamored with Lukeion as DD, but I'm also not the one continuing with Lukeion. 

CLRC allows adults to sign up for their classes too. 

[serendipitous journey]

crazyforlatin, how would CLRC's language classes be for a non-Christian child?  We are old earth, teach evolution, and the children do not identify as Christian (and I, who do, have a non-orthodox theology).  One constant, albeit small, stressor for DS at Memoria Press Online was that if the conversation, or class topic, veered toward Creation or origins, his comments were ignored.  And there was one memorable Latin class with the Latin saying and artwork being about the fear people will feel  -- and ought to feel -- at the second coming, which was not helpful in my efforts to be a winsome apologist to my children and instill in them a deep sense of Jesus' love. 

Especially, I never again want to expose the children to the teaching that Jesus -- under any circumstance -- should be feared, or at least I want to do my best to ensure that what they are taught encourages them to always, always be secure and trusting in turning toward Jesus.  I'd be grateful on your thoughts about CLRC in this situation. 

ETA: One strength of Lukeion for me (we are beginning this fall, so no BTDT!) is that they seem religion-friendly (they love Rod and Staff grammar) but their content is based on academic history and literature and their ethical framework is not explicitly religious, so I expect that a diverse range of views and beliefs are acceptable, so long as students are respectful and kind. 

[crazyforlatin]

2 minutes ago, serendipitous journey said:

crazyforlatin, how would CLRC's language classes be for a non-Christian child?  We are old earth, teach evolution, and the children do not identify as Christian (and I, who do, have a non-orthodox theology).  One constant, albeit small, stressor for DS at Memoria Press Online was that if the conversation, or class topic, veered toward Creation or origins, his comments were ignored.  And there was one memorable Latin class with the Latin saying and artwork being about the fear people will feel  -- and ought to feel -- at the second coming, which was not helpful in my efforts to be a winsome apologist to my children and instill in them a deep sense of Jesus' love. 

Especially, I never again want to expose the children to the teaching that they Jesus -- under any circumstance -- should be feared, or at least I want to do my best to ensure that what they are taught of encourages them to always, always be secure and trusting in turning toward Jesus.  I'd be grateful on your thoughts about CLRC in this situation. 

Other than Byzantine Chant, I never once heard any religious content in any of the classes DD took at CLRC. It's kind of like Lukeion; I have no idea the Barrs' religious preference because it's never been mentioned in class. I think Dd would feel very uncomfortable having a teacher talk that way. She is a Christian and still very much a kid, but we know people who talk like that, and it makes her upset. 

 

With Excelsior Academy, Dd just took Photoshop which she loved, but there is a time for prayer on behalf of all the students. So students let the teacher know how the teacher can pray for them, and then it ends without evangelizing. WHA is the same thing. 

[serendipitous journey]

Thank you so much! 

The MPOA thing was very short and moderate, but really bothered my sensitive child.  I'm happy for Byzantine Chant to be taught/discussed, and prayer time is lovely -- the boys have that at our church.  Very, very glad to hear that there's no doctrinal content assumed or in the teaching: and thanks for the information about Excelsior Academy and esp. WHA, which I've been avoiding for just this reason.  ? 

(and thank you for ignoring my messy grammar -- I kept revising that on the fly -- it's never easy to write gently about such a loaded topic, or one that was so stressful)

[RootAnn]

13 hours ago, serendipitous journey said:

how would CLRC's language classes be for a non-Christian child?

My dd#1 took German 1 from CLRC this past year. They did have discussions about religion - but in the context of how Germany handles religion class in public schools, for example.

DD will often tell me when there are 'religious' discussions in online classes she's taken. WHA classes can be very Christian-leaning depending on the subject matter (like in Great Conversations classes) or the teacher. I heard from DD about her WHA Spanish teacher several times during the year (bringing up rah-rah Christianity stuff). 

For the record, we are Catholic, but being that some Christian groups do not feel Catholics are Christian, DD#1 is sensitive to discussions (and assignments) which could make non-Christians uncomfortable. WHA has had a couple of assignments (in Fundamentals of Academic Writing & maybe one in Spanish 4?) that would have been more work for non-Christians to complete (just in that they assume a certain point of view to be taken - although I believe the teachers wouldn't have penalized the kids if they turned in a different product than the majority of the class due to that different viewpoint. CLRC German, to my knowledge, has not had any of those. She did not have any issues in Excelsior Chemistry either. Again, each teacher & each class will likely be different!