AP Lit vs. Center For Lit course

[kirag714]

My daughter is currently finishing up 11th grade as a homeschooler. We are new to homeschooling, and she actually started homeschooling midyear for medical/mental health reasons. Things are going well overall, and she will be finishing up all her work by mid-June. So her 12th grade year will our first time planning her homeschooling in advance. Talk about a steep learning curve!

She is interested in competitive colleges (not Ivies or super-competive LACs, but next tier down), and should have very good SAT scores - we don't have them yet because she just took the test last Saturday, but her practice tests have been around 1400. She's also going to do the US History & Literature SAT subject tests in June, and probably a Math subject test next fall. FYI her HS grades from her B&M school were excellent, and her unweighted GPA from 9th & 10th grades is 3.98. Another piece of info is that she will be fulfilling the requirements for a diploma from Erie County Homeschoolers for an academic diploma with honors in both English and Social Science for 11th & 12th grades.

For next year I have already signed her up for AP Environmental Science at PAH, and we also have a plan for both math and foreign language, so I'm looking at her English and History options. My question today is about her English class - I am waffling between a PAH AP Literature class (probably the one with Kay Ben-Avraham because I liked the reading list the best), and one of the Center for Lit classes combined with their writing option (probably World Lit, but possible British Lit - she did American Lit this past year). 

I LOVE the format of the Center for Lit classes - that's exactly what I think an English class should be: read the book, and then have a good discussion about it, without all the "busy work" that seems to be a part of many HS English classes, particularly online ones. I also really love the way they structure the writing portion of the class. However, I don't know much about it, and don't see a lot of reviews of their classes here or elsewhere. Has anyone had experience with them? Are they able to cause some lively discussions (and include everyone, even a smart but shy teen like mine :) ) in a once a month online class?

And I worry that we are giving up something by not doing as many AP classes as we can. So many of the kids on this Forum seem to do SO MANY AP classes! Does that matter as much in 12th grade as it would have earlier in her HS career? 

Any thoughts, and any feedback about the Center for Lit classes? I am going to let her have a say in this as well but I would love to be able to give her the benefit of the thoughts of the experienced parents here. Thanks so much!

 

[Julie of KY]

Well, I'd follow your instincts and go with Center for LIt. You've already argued why you should pick that.

I would not take an AP course just to have another AP course on the transcript. Also, she won't have a score yet for her senior year AP courses, so I'm not sure how much weight the AP course will carry without a score - depends on the school.

My kids have loved the Center for Lit courses. We've only done the discussion portion and not the writing portion (mostly did the classes before they did the writing). My oldest asked to go back to taking more Center for Lit classes saying it changed how he thought about everything he read. Most of my kids have only listened as they did not want to participate in the actual discussion, but they always listened to it live so that they could discuss if they wanted. I felt that it didn't seem like much for what I paid for it, HOWEVER it was fantastic for the reality of what they learned and how they transferred the thinking skills to other literature. It was definitely not just a get it done class, but inspired them to think and learn a lot. Years later they can tell you all sorts of things that they learned through Center for Lit. I would definitely recommend the courses (at least the discussion portion as we never did the writing). 

On the Center for Lit website, there are sample classes that you can download to see what you think of the classes.

[kirag714]

1 hour ago, Julie of KY said:

My kids have loved the Center for Lit courses. We've only done the discussion portion and not the writing portion (mostly did the classes before they did the writing). My oldest asked to go back to taking more Center for Lit classes saying it changed how he thought about everything he read. Most of my kids have only listened as they did not want to participate in the actual discussion, but they always listened to it live so that they could discuss if they wanted. I felt that it didn't seem like much for what I paid for it, HOWEVER it was fantastic for the reality of what they learned and how they transferred the thinking skills to other literature. It was definitely not just a get it done class, but inspired them to think and learn a lot. Years later they can tell you all sorts of things that they learned through Center for Lit. I would definitely recommend the courses (at least the discussion portion as we never did the writing). 

On the Center for Lit website, there are sample classes that you can download to see what you think of the classes.

Thank you so much! That's exactly what I needed to hear. Yes, my "gut" is telling me this is the right choice for her, but I wanted to see some feedback. She loves to read so I don't need to encourage her in that department, but it would be so useful for her to be exposed to some good discussions, even if she just listened. 

[pmeilaen]

My son took several classes with Center for Lit and really benefited from them.  He is not someone who picks up a book of fiction by himself.  Those classes made him read and the online discussions were very good for him.  He loves to discuss things!  He even "met" his roommate in one of the classes: They ended up sharing a room as freshmen in college because they both happened to find themselves at the same college.  He did not always agree with certain interpretations of the books they had to read and continued discussing his ideas with Adam Andrews "after class-time" via e-mail.  Adam Andrews still remembers my son fondly.    

Right now my high-school daughter is taking a class and is also learning a lot (although she does not like to discuss things so much).  They used to offer cheap or free summer classes.  That would be a wonderful way to find out if your daughter likes this method of teaching or not.  

By the way, my children have not done any AP courses so far, in fact, my husband, a college professor, finds them utterly useless and not really beneficial for preparing a child for deeper thinking and writing skills.  

 

  

[RootAnn]

My oldest enjoyed her Center for Lit class - but it couldn't be more different than an AP Lit class. Will they try to draw out a shy kid? Nope. They expect only a small portion of the kids who are taking the class to participate. Are the discussions good? Yes, but they are only 2 hours long once per month.

As long as you understand what the class is and what it isn't, I think you are fine. If you are looking for a lot of interaction or accountability, this isn't it.

If you are looking for a class which has a rich & pleasant discussion once per month for two hours on a book (or set of short stories or some poems) because you don't want this subject to be a big time suck but you want it to be valuable, this is a good class. I can't speak to the writing portion at all since when my oldest took the CfL class, she would not have been able to appreciate the book if she knew she was also going to have to write about it. We separated our writing & our literature and it was the right thing to do for her.

There are classes that aren't at either extreme (AP vs. Center for Lit) that are available if an AP class isn't what you are looking for and the above description makes you think that CfL isn't 'enough' for your daughter. It was exactly what my oldest needed the year she took a CfL class. It was a good class for her. It isn't a good fit for some kids, though.

[Julie of KY]

I do agree that AP lit and Center for Lit are drastically different.

With AP lit, you will read lots, analyze lots, and write lots - lots and lots of reading and writing. It might be high level discussions or it might be painfully difficult to keep up with. Even for a student that is capable of this class, I'm not sure it's the best choice. Sometimes going with classes that ignite passion are better - whatever the class (and this might be AP). 

My son that is in AP English - Lang and Comp will be doing something much more along the lines of Center for Lit for his senior year. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum and each has a place. Do what is best in you home and you will be doing the best to prepare your student for college and life.

As I said above, I'd go with your instinct and do Center for Lit.

[kirag714]

Thanks for all the thoughts! Yes, part of what is concerning me is that I have been fairly unhappy with what my older kids encountered in their AP humanities courses at B&M schools, which were both a small private Quaker prep school and the large urban magnet school. It was particularly bad with my middle daughter's APUSH class, but also came up in AP Language - lots of teaching to the test, and the kind of busy work that makes me crazy in history & lit classes. And in my past experience, online courses can be even more prone to busy work than B&M ones, although I'm happy to be wrong about that.

I'm not concerned about this kid's ability to read and write (she just picked up War & Peace for pleasure reading, and is an excellent, if sometimes reluctant, writer). This year I just made my own American Lit course - we started midyear so that seemed the best option, and she did just fine with it. However, I do think she will really benefit from a real discussion about the book she's read, and that is very difficult for me to reproduce between the two of us. She will be relieved to know that she is not required to speak up!

I'm glad to see so much good feedback about Center for Lit, even though so far no one in this thread has done the writing part! I'm pretty sure that the read & discuss method will work well for her, and I think that the incremental way that they seem to structure the writing assignments will also be a good fit for her. 

[mirabillis]

Discussion only here. Currently in Brit Lit. We are not fans and I would never recommend it. Too little structure for my kid, too little accountability in a once a month discussion. We've found it to be a waste of money. I will try WaskoLit next kid - once a week discussions, and from what I hear, same good quality lit discussions. Just my 2c.

[Julie of KY]

WaskoLit sounds interesting - I've never heard of it. I'll have to keep my eye out for some reviews.

[kirag714]

8 hours ago, mirabillis said:

Discussion only here. Currently in Brit Lit. We are not fans and I would never recommend it. Too little structure for my kid, too little accountability in a once a month discussion. We've found it to be a waste of money. I will try WaskoLit next kid - once a week discussions, and from what I hear, same good quality lit discussions. Just my 2c.

Thanks for your feedback - it's good to hear the negative along with the positive. For my daughter I think reading an assigned book and then having a monthly discussion about it will be the perfect amount of accountability, but I know this approach wouldn't have worked with my son! She would do the reading even without a discussion (that's what she did this past year), so I'm really just looking for a structured discussion opportunity. I've listened to some of the sample discussions on the Center for Lit page and I think she'll find them useful. I might hesitate to do multiple courses with them since there seems to be a sameness in the structure of the discussions, but I think one year with this approach will be a good fit for her.

I'm still hoping to hear from someone who did the accompanying writing class! That seems to have lots of structure and accountability (although thankfully not weekly responses, which is what I am trying to avoid). I may reach out to Center for Lit myself to get some of my questions answered, and if I do I'll post their responses here.

[Penelope]

For a choice between those two, for a senior student as academically talented as your dd, I would probably go for AP Lit. 

I don’t know. I like Center for Lit from what I have seen and heard (did you know they also do a podcast? I really enjoy it and them) and I am considering one of their Lit courses for one of my kids, even though I am underwhelmed at their sample class and the frequency of classes.

But for a senior who is academically strong I would choose something else. A good score in AP Lit can exempt a student from freshman English, often not the most exciting course at many colleges, and gives the opportunity to take a more interesting literature class or another course of interest, depending on requirements.  AP Lit does not have to be busy work and drudgery. I agree that when I look at some online English classes, that is kind of the feeling I get, made worse by the paucity of interaction in most online classes. But I think a good AP Lit class takes that drudgery out because it is not about grammar exercises or comprehension questions. 

[RootAnn]

54 minutes ago, Penelope said:

A good score in AP Lit can exempt a student from freshman English, often not the most exciting course at many colleges, and gives the opportunity to take a more interesting literature class or another course of interest, depending on requirements.  AP Lit does not have to be busy work and drudgery. I agree that when I look at some online English classes, that is kind of the feeling I get, made worse by the paucity of interaction in most online classes. But I think a good AP Lit class takes that drudgery out because it is not about grammar exercises or comprehension questions. 

It varies by college. I have seen this to be the case, but, so far, none of the (non-selective, larger & smaller) colleges that my DD is looking at will allow you to get out of their freshman english requirement. They will allow you to take a (harder? more interesting?) higher level English class if you have a high AP score, but they will also allow that for a high English/Reading ACT score in some cases as well. So, definitely check some of the colleges your kid is looking at. 

[GoodGrief]

FWIW, my '16 grad daughter loved both her AP Lit and Lang classes at PAH. She did not have the teacher named above though. Busywork was not an issue for her. She is STEM-oriented, but the AP classes ignited a strong interest in writing and humanities.

My close friend's daughter did the Center for Lit classes. I got the impression that the classes were just fine as far as a "get 'er done" English course, but not particularly inspiring. I suppose that might be somewhat dependent on what other students are contributing to the discussion. They did not do the writing, and the young woman is not a strong writer, though she is doing fine at a non-competitive college now.

I have a daughter (not the one referenced above) who struggled with mental health in high school, so I do understand that you have to choose courses with an eye to life-balance. That said, my gut feeling is that if your daughter truly loves lit/reading/writing, the AP course with PAH might be more enjoyable than the Center for Lit course. Maybe. I do think doing it in a homeschool setting will surely be a different experience than doing it at a B&M school.

[pmeilaen]

16 hours ago, mirabillis said:

Discussion only here. Currently in Brit Lit. We are not fans and I would never recommend it. Too little structure for my kid, too little accountability in a once a month discussion. We've found it to be a waste of money. I will try WaskoLit next kid - once a week discussions, and from what I hear, same good quality lit discussions. Just my 2c.

 

I think the reason why some people think it is not structured enough is the approach of these classes: These are Socratic discussions.  Some people really like this approach and learn a lot, while other people are better suited for a different approach.

[pmeilaen]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

It varies by college. I have seen this to be the case, but, so far, none of the (non-selective, larger & smaller) colleges that my DD is looking at will allow you to get out of their freshman english requirement. They will allow you to take a (harder? more interesting?) higher level English class if you have a high AP score, but they will also allow that for a high English/Reading ACT score in some cases as well. So, definitely check some of the colleges your kid is looking at. 

 Very true.  My son took several college classes as a high schooler here in NY, but his current college in PA did not accept all of them.  They told us that their approach in certain subjects was unique and he had to take the courses his college offers.  

[RootAnn]

I guess I don't see why it has to be either extreme. There are a huge number of English courses out there that come out in the middle between the once/month format and the intensity of AP Lit. For example, Excelsior, Big River, and several other providers have a lot of English classes where you read & do some writing. CLRC has smaller class sizes where you read & the writing feedback is supposed to be detailed and excellent. Integritas has a really gifted teacher who draws students out and takes their writing to the next level.

Alternatively,  Wilson Hill has "Great Conversation" classes that could theoretically double as both English and History classes as they recommend their GC 4 - 6 classes be 2 1/2 credits each. (1 English, 1 History, 1/2 Theology?)

[kirag714]

51 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I guess I don't see why it has to be either extreme.

It probably doesn't :). I'm pretty new to this and not aware of all of the options, so I will definitely check some of those out! BTW, we are also looking for classes that are basically secular - i.e. it's perfectly OK if God gets mentioned, but not going to work for us if faith is really a central focus of the mission of the teachers or the class. So any suggestions that fit all of those criteria will be welcomed. 

In addition, as GoodGrief1 mentioned above, one of my main concerns is balancing thing for my daughter's mental health. She's in the process of recovering from a pretty severe depression, and while she's doing better month to month, it's all still pretty fragile. This is super hard for her because she's very smart and ambitious - but she also gets easily overwhelmed, and is REALLY hard on herself when she thinks she's not measuring up. Unfortunately when she gets overwhelmed or thinks she's failing she just freezes up (and yes she is working on all of this in therapy and also in a DBT group!). So I have the challenge of finding classes that thread the needle between stimulating and demanding! I think for English (given her strengths, but also taking into account her anxieties) that weekly classes & assignments might be too much. If there's a good class that has classes every other week that would probably be perfect, but so far I haven't found one.

My gut is telling me that Center for Lit with the writing option will be the best combination of structure and accountability for HER that I've found so far. It might be a bit less stimulating than other options, but she's strong enough in the subject that I think this approach will carry her through - she finds reading inherently satisfying. And her real love is history (particularly ancient history) so I'm also on the hunt for a really good history class - thinking maybe Lukeion Classical History? other ideas in that area would be great as well. 

Thanks again. This thread has really made me think.

[Julie of KY]

Some other classes that sound like they might fit what you are looking for:

Online G3 literature classes  https://www.onlineg3.com/

Roy Speed Shakespeare classes   http://hscollegebound.com/courses.htm

By the way, I think it is perfectly fine to do a once a month class for literature while you are concentrating on healing her mental health. The last thing you want to do is overwhelm her and it doesn't sound like you'd be slackers about everything else. You can always add to any class at home if you need more for a full credit.

 

[RootAnn]

Julie's list, above, are definitely ones to look into if you don't want a lot of output. Roy Speed's class is very discussion based with pretty much only reading to do as homework. OnlineG3 lit classes have some 'busy work' in terms of discussion posts - but none of their classes are graded, so you as the Mom would have to provide a grade.

Open Tent Academy used to have some classes that did run on the every-other-week option. (Eva Goldstein's classes still do - an A and a B week. But, one is full & the other is a Research Paper class - which I'm not sure is what you want.)

CLRC tries to be secular, but the kids are often Christian & interject their own world-views in the discussion.(We have not had any problems in their foreign language classes, but I know of someone whose kid did not feel comfortable in their Great Books class. I did laugh at hearing that some of the kids believed the Ancient Greeks were Christian.)  You definitely don't want WHA's Great Conversation classes if you are going for secular. I'm not sure how religious Big River & Excelsior are for English - but they would probably have a prayer at the beginning of class, at the least.

[SanDiegoMom]

Athena's Advanced Academy is offering AP Lit this year. We really like the teacher, she definitely knows her stuff and leads socratic discussion very well, even with shy kids. No grades, and the teacher is always available for office hours and has no problems accommodating kids that need extra supports. They are used to 2e kids and are VERY flexible. Downsides are that it is new (though the teacher is a credentialed Gifted teacher who taught gifted classes for 10 years previously, but the AP Lit is new) and the age range will be broad. As in, right now my 12 year olds are in a class with a 10, 11, 14, and 16 year old. 

[mirabillis]

On 5/12/2018 at 7:55 AM, Julie of KY said:

Roy Speed Shakespeare classes   http://hscollegebound.com/courses.htm

 

 

we loved Roy Speed's classes! will do those with multiple dc in future for sure.

do look into waskolit. their customer service is top-notch as we've taken their writing/writeathome classes last 2 years. great refund policy. while we haven't tried their lit - i've seen some sound kudos for them on these boards. we will opt for those next go-around. similar in scope but weekly meetings, much like roy speed shakespeare. i think 4x discussion on a book better than a single 2 hour centerforlit discussion. http://www.waskolit.com/

[royspeed]

Hi, everyone -- Roy Speed here.

Saw this thread, and wanted to let everyone know that next year, in addition to my Shakespeare courses, I'm offering two additional courses in a quite different format.

Both are year-long, two-semester courses:

• Novels by Women. The main event here is close reading, annotation, and discussion of great novels. There are only two major writing assignments — essays of literary analysis, with discussion and feedback. The course is expensive, mainly because it's live — over the course of the year, about 75 hours of instruction/live discussion. We read quite a range of novels, from Sofia Petrovna, written by Lydia Chukovskaya during the height of Stalin's Great Purge in the 1930s, to Jane Austen and Edith Wharton.
• Logical Communication. This is a writing course, but quite unlike other courses I'm aware of. The focus is essays, but two things distinguish this course: 1) The emphasis of the writing instruction is logical progression of ideas — in other words, I'm trying to equip students to organize and control their own train of thought. 2) As part of their writing instruction, students read closely and discuss dozens of fine essays and excerpts from works of non-fiction. This course, too, is 75 hours of instruction, and I'm teaching professional-grade writing tools (in my business practice, I create writing instruction for corporate professionals).

Good luck with your 2018-19 school year!

[MamaSprout]

23 minutes ago, royspeed said:

• Logical Communication. This is a writing course, but quite unlike other courses I'm aware of. The focus is essays, but two things distinguish this course: 1) The emphasis of the writing instruction is logical progression of ideas — in other words, I'm trying to equip students to organize and control their own train of thought. 2) As part of their writing instruction, students read closely and discuss dozens of fine essays and excerpts from works of non-fiction. This course, too, is 75 hours of instruction, and I'm teaching professional-grade writing tools (in my business practice, I create writing instruction for corporate professionals).

Good luck with your 2018-19 school year!

Is this an early high school course? Would it be a full English credit, or would there be room to squeeze in some ancient literature at home? ETA: Are the Ancient and Middle Age courses offered during alternate years?

Also, what is your policy for missed classes? We are traveling for 10 days in September. Thanks!

[royspeed]

MamaSprout:

Thanks for writing!

Logical Communication is appropriate for high-school-age students with a pretty strong command of English fundamentals (grammar, usage, punctuation) and with decent reading skills. I'm accustomed to accommodating a range of ages in my courses: the content, in my view, is sophisticated enough to engage college students; my challenge is to make it all accessible/understandable to youngsters.

As for course credit, yes, you can definitely award a full English credit, and as for other literature reading/study concurrent with this course: The weekly homework-workload you should estimate at around 3 - 4 hrs per week — more when the student is drafting a new essay — plus 2.5 hours of actual class-time per week. So it's your call, but I would think that your student could definitely squeeze in some ancient literature at home. (The beauty of homeschooling, right?)

Missed classes: All classes are recorded and usually posted within a few hours. So students who can't attend a particular session simply view the recording. — Your traveling in September should pose no problem.

As for my two other courses, History & Literature of the Middle Ages and History & Literature of the Ancient World: Middle Ages will likely be offered in 2019-20, and unfortunately, the Ancient World is not yet an online course.

Again, thanks for writing, and if you have additional questions, just let me know.