Needing advice on CC for 5th grader

[jens2sons]

I need to rant a bit here.  Maybe you can help me process??  We jumped back in to Classical Conversations almost a year ago (week 12 of cycle 2) and joined a new group that started in my home town this school year for cycle 3.  The Foundations program that I loved so much last year seems to me to be lacking in depth of information this year.  I feel as if I need to add more depth to the memory work for my 5th grader but with the load that we are taking on with Essentials, where does one find the time?  Also, my husband was looking through the EEL work we have been doing and thinks that the workload is absolutely ridiculous, especially for a 5th grade boy.  IEW seems to be a good program for writing and the math drill seems that it is good but I just don't know how much more of this speeding through like a freight train I can take!  It's only week 5!  I am not sure we will continue with CC next year but we may have no other choice due to a lack of co-op options/homeschool support groups that are academically rich for my son's age.  Has anyone else had this problem?  How did you solve it?  I know that the program is to prepare for the Challenge program but to be honest I'm not sure I agree or am sold on their philosophy.  CC states that their Challenge students graduate with higher scores (insinuating that others don't) however my oldest son is now a junior in college and did not have a CC/Classical education and is doing well at his private college.  I feel as if I'm in between a rock and a hard place.  What does one do when feeling this way???

[YodaGirl]

This board is pretty anti-CC, so keep that in mind.

 

I'm an Essentials tutor. The first year of Essentials can be rough. There are a couple of analogies that we use - like drinking from a fire hose or throwing a pot of spaghetti at the wall - to explain how we throw everything at you but know you won't get it all. That's okay. If you stick with it, you'll get more next year.

 

This is what I suggest for 1st years:

 

Charts - Spend a max of 15 minutes a day on charts. Chart work doesn't have to be actually copying charts. Cut them up and use them as puzzles. Get creative. The idea is to just get him familiar with them.

 

Task Sheet - He should only be doing the standard sentences and only up to the diagramming part (step 4). Skip the advanced ones. If you're doing the Quid et Quo, don't. It shouldn't have been introduced yet. That comes at the end of the year. When my daughter was a first tour student, we did them together on the board.

 

Editing Excercises - They are totally optional. We've never done them.

 

IEW - Scribe for him, and don't forget that you can't help him too much.

 

Math - We don't add in any of it. If she has extra time, she'll play boardwalk. If not, she just doesn't. We don't work on additional fact memorization, either.

 

Foundations - We use another Social Studies program in addition to memory work. It's pretty nice that most 5th grade social studies curricula is focused on US History. Works great for cycle 3. You can go that route, or you can check out books at the library each week to coincide to the new grammar work.

 

Test Scores - There's a pretty long thread where I posted about them. Long story short, they're not insinuating that CC students have the best scores, although I'm sure there are some CC parents who believe that. However, the only things that they claim is that CC students score well on standardized tests, and that they score higher than average students. Those statistics could be written to show a variety of things. The main takeaway is that the graduates are successful. It's certainly not the only way, though.

 

As for not sticking with it, I get it. Challenge A & B look amazing, but I'm not sure we'll stick with it, either. CC is great, but it's not the only option out there. Do whatever is right for you.

[jens2sons]

This board is pretty anti-CC, so keep that in mind.

 

I'm an Essentials tutor. The first year of Essentials can be rough. There are a couple of analogies that we use - like drinking from a fire hose or throwing a pot of spaghetti at the wall - to explain how we throw everything at you but know you won't get it all. That's okay. If you stick with it, you'll get more next year.

 

This is what I suggest for 1st years:

 

Charts - Spend a max of 15 minutes a day on charts. Chart work doesn't have to be actually copying charts. Cut them up and use them as puzzles. Get creative. The idea is to just get him familiar with them.

 

Task Sheet - He should only be doing the standard sentences and only up to the diagramming part (step 4). Skip the advanced ones. If you're doing the Quid et Quo, don't. It shouldn't have been introduced yet. That comes at the end of the year. When my daughter was a first tour student, we did them together on the board.

 

Editing Excercises - They are totally optional. We've never done them.

 

IEW - Scribe for him, and don't forget that you can't help him too much.

 

Math - We don't add in any of it. If she has extra time, she'll play boardwalk. If not, she just doesn't. We don't work on additional fact memorization, either.

 

Foundations - We use another Social Studies program in addition to memory work. It's pretty nice that most 5th grade social studies curricula is focused on US History. Works great for cycle 3. You can go that route, or you can check out books at the library each week to coincide to the new grammar work.

 

Test Scores - There's a pretty long thread where I posted about them. Long story short, they're not insinuating that CC students have the best scores, although I'm sure there are some CC parents who believe that. However, the only things that they claim is that CC students score well on standardized tests, and that they score higher than average students. Those statistics could be written to show a variety of things. The main takeaway is that the graduates are successful. It's certainly not the only way, though.

 

As for not sticking with it, I get it. Challenge A & B look amazing, but I'm not sure we'll stick with it, either. CC is great, but it's not the only option out there. Do whatever is right for you.

[jens2sons]

I understand that the first year is a lot and we are supposed to go through 2 more cycles. However, my husband and I feel that the EEL is over the top. I am tempted to audit the EEL portion and work through Easy Grammar or Rod & Staff for English grammar study. I actually went through Essentials tutor training this last summer because I offered to be the sub but I ended up backing out after training because this system overwhelms me. I have used IEW before but we used the SWI-A and it went at a much slower pace and was enjoyable. I don't feel that I should have to scribe for him so much. It only puts more on me as the parent. I'd rather he do the easier IEW until he is ready for the other level. Why is it that we have to be fire hosed? Why can't CC structure the program so it's doable for first year families? All these are my thoughts right now. I know that so many reviews of CC on here can be negative but I am also looking for real life experience without the CC filters that happen elsewhere IYKWIM.

[YodaGirl]

I understand that the first year is a lot and we are supposed to go through 2 more cycles. However, my husband and I feel that the EEL is over the top. I am tempted to audit the EEL portion and work through Easy Grammar or Rod & Staff for English grammar study. I actually went through Essentials tutor training this last summer because I offered to be the sub but I ended up backing out after training because this system overwhelms me. I have used IEW before but we used the SWI-A and it went at a much slower pace and was enjoyable. I don't feel that I should have to scribe for him so much. It only puts more on me as the parent. I'd rather he do the easier IEW until he is ready for the other level. Why is it that we have to be fire hosed? Why can't CC structure the program so it's doable for first year families? All these are my thoughts right now. I know that so many reviews of CC on here can be negative but I am also looking for real life experience without the CC filters that happen elsewhere IYKWIM.

It's a group setting. You can have first, second, & third year students in one room. That's why everything is presented with the understanding that the parent is the teacher. The parent scales the material for the student. May I ask what he's having issues with or that feels inappropriate for his age? I would also encourage you to talk to his tutor to ask for suggestions on ways to scale the program to fit his needs as a first year student.

 

We've also had families audit. In fact, one of the most skeptical moms approached me this year and commented on how her daughter "gets it" this year.

 

As for the scribing part, that's not a CC thing. Thats 100% IEW/Andrew Pudewa. I was pretty skeptical of it last year, and you're right - it took a lot of parent involvement. However, that's paid off for us this year. My daughter doesn't need my help for anything except typing the final draft. I know that the book this time around is technically geared toward 6-8, but it's really not *that* much more difficult than some of the 3-5 level books I have. (We did IEW prior to CC.) Next year's book will be 3-5th grade level, fwiw.

 

Again, though, it's completely your call. CC isn't for everyone. You've got to do what works for your family.

[Jazzy]

I have two kids in Challenge, and it’s been great for them. That being said, if you’re not sold on the program or it’s philosophy, do something else.

 

CC published the info on test scores to show that the program can be good for kids. That does not mean it is the only way to get good test scores as there are obviously plenty of kids who aren’t in CC who get great scores. That also doesn’t mean every CC student gets good scores.

 

If you like Foundations, but not essentials, you can drop Essentials. Or if there are portions of Essentials you like and others you don’t, you can adjust the stuff you don’t like.

 

I guess I don’t see where you’re caught between a rock and a hard place. I did 3 years of Foundations with my kids, then decided we’d do other things. My 5 younger kids aren’t in the program.

 

My Challenge kids haven’t done and likely won’t do all Challenge levels. It’s perfectly okay to do only portions of the program or even drop it all together if it’s not meeting your needs.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Jazzy

[Jazzy]

You might try online classes for if you can’t find any classes you like irl. You could also look for group activities like speech and debate, mock trial, sports, etc. to replace the social aspect of CC.

[Omma]

Learning those charts in Essentials really helps you to understand there is a grammatical pattern to language, which can then, in principle, be applied to any foreign language your dc may happen to study. 

 

My dd's friend just switched to public school as a freshman and is in the extreme minority that she understands grammar so well (having taken Essentials).  In fact, in her new Latin 2 class, they can only study two Latin cases (Nom. and Acc.) as students are too limited in grammar to take on all 5 noun declensions yet!  They really do not seem to be teaching much grammar in public schools these days, so the charts in Essentials might appear to be over the top to some.  As a student of linguistics and a TA for grammatical analysis in college; however, I LOVE them!  :lol: 

[jens2sons]

I have two kids in Challenge, and it’s been great for them. That being said, if you’re not sold on the program or it’s philosophy, do something else.

 

CC published the info on test scores to show that the program can be good for kids. That does not mean it is the only way to get good test scores as there are obviously plenty of kids who aren’t in CC who get great scores. That also doesn’t mean every CC student gets good scores.

 

If you like Foundations, but not essentials, you can drop Essentials. Or if there are portions of Essentials you like and others you don’t, you can adjust the stuff you don’t like.

 

I guess I don’t see where you’re caught between a rock and a hard place. I did 3 years of Foundations with my kids, then decided we’d do other things. My 5 younger kids aren’t in the program.

 

My Challenge kids haven’t done and likely won’t do all Challenge levels. It’s perfectly okay to do only portions of the program or even drop it all together if it’s not meeting your needs.

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The rock and hard place I'm referring to is the lack of co-op options.

[Another Lynn]

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The rock and hard place I'm referring to is the lack of co-op options.

 

Do you need a co-op?  Or said differently, what do you need a co-op to do for you - social interaction? Mom support? academic goals?  We have been a CC family, and I have felt some of your same frustrations at times.  We're finally at a point where we are busy enough and have enough established friendships (many formed through CC!), that we don't need Foundations and Essentials anymore.  (As far as Challenge goes, in our experience, it has been a good fit for some kids and not for others, so we decide on an individual basis whether to use it or not and for how long.)

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Do you need a co-op?  Or said differently, what do you need a co-op to do for you - social interaction? Mom support? academic goals?  We have been a CC family, and I have felt some of your same frustrations at times.  We're finally at a point where we are busy enough and have enough established friendships (many formed through CC!), that we don't need Foundations and Essentials anymore.  (As far as Challenge goes, in our experience, it has been a good fit for some kids and not for others, so we decide on an individual basis whether to use it or not and for how long.)

 

I would ask the same thing.  I have not done CC because every time I want to like it, I just find it too rigid.  The philosophy doesn't completely align with mine, not to mention the cost.  I've officially given up on considering it to be a good fit for us.  I can purchase the memory cd's if I want them.  But I am looking for some co-op classes to participate in next year.  We are blessed to have several choices.  I need it to outsource science and a few electives in jr. high.  The social benefits are secondary to me.

 

What is your goal with a co-op?  If it's social interaction, is there a park day or local homeschool group you could join for fun things like field trips?  If it's academic content, check out some online courses that may be a good fit.

[Momto4inSoCal]

Not to discourage you even more but essentials is very light compared to challenge. We are with CC mostly due to all of my kids best friends being a part of the group. We supplement the foundations/essentials program quite a bit. My oldest just started challenge A and is doing fine but I know a lot of moms are struggling. I don't think the work load is heavy enough in the younger years and moms are used to being very relaxed and it's shocking when they get to challenge. Anyway... if our friends weren't all with this program I would drop it and I'm fairly confident our schooling would be better off without it. The money could easily be spent on online classes with actual teachers who know the material. Co-ops aren't necessary, if I were you I would look for park days for homeschoolers rather than cc. Don't feel stuck. As far as the grammar, in my experience the kids all get it by the end of essentials. A lot of times they understand even more than the moms. We've never done the editing exercises, Spelling or homophone/punctuation in the eel. Are you doing those? Maybe try skipping some parts?

Edited October 31, 2017 by Momto4inSoCal

[2_girls_mommy]

We get our social time, electives, and some core classes through a different, cheaper co-op that we have some say in planning. I help run it, and could honestly ditch the co-op and just do the science and latin with 1-2 families at this point for the educational aspects, and then just keep up the homeschool support group side (not the co-op side of our group,) which would give us social opportunities and field trips. But my kids would revolt if we dropped our co-op at this point. 

 

I would start a group with other families, even if it was just getting together one morning a week for the things you want to do together, on a different day of the week. It could be something you want to keep from the CC or something different like art or a modern foreign language or a park day or field trip day in your case if there truly isn't another co-op available. A close relationship with another family or two, plus other outside activities like sports or 4H or community things they are into. 

 

[jens2sons]

We get our social time, electives, and some core classes through a different, cheaper co-op that we have some say in planning. I help run it, and could honestly ditch the co-op and just do the science and latin with 1-2 families at this point for the educational aspects, and then just keep up the homeschool support group side (not the co-op side of our group,) which would give us social opportunities and field trips. But my kids would revolt if we dropped our co-op at this point. 

 

I would start a group with other families, even if it was just getting together one morning a week for the things you want to do together, on a different day of the week. It could be something you want to keep from the CC or something different like art or a modern foreign language or a park day or field trip day in your case if there truly isn't another co-op available. A close relationship with another family or two, plus other outside activities like sports or 4H or community things they are into.

 

  

I would ask the same thing.  I have not done CC because every time I want to like it, I just find it too rigid.  The philosophy doesn't completely align with mine, not to mention the cost.  I've officially given up on considering it to be a good fit for us.  I can purchase the memory cd's if I want them.  But I am looking for some co-op classes to participate in next year.  We are blessed to have several choices.  I need it to outsource science and a few electives in jr. high.  The social benefits are secondary to me.

 

What is your goal with a co-op?  If it's social interaction, is there a park day or local homeschool group you could join for fun things like field trips?  If it's academic content, check out some online courses that may be a good fit.

  

Do you need a co-op?  Or said differently, what do you need a co-op to do for you - social interaction? Mom support? academic goals?  We have been a CC family, and I have felt some of your same frustrations at times.  We're finally at a point where we are busy enough and have enough established friendships (many formed through CC!), that we don't need Foundations and Essentials anymore.  (As far as Challenge goes, in our experience, it has been a good fit for some kids and not for others, so we decide on an individual basis whether to use it or not and for how long.)

I only have 1 other option for a co-op in my area. In the past, we were members of it. However it got to the point that the classes that were being offered amounted to under-water basket weaving and I just couldn't devote an entire school day to such classes. I wanted more academic support. I wonder if CC could work as a co-op scenario with us doing our own thing during the rest of the week???

[MerryAtHope]

I feel as if I need to add more depth to the memory work for my 5th grader but with the load that we are taking on with Essentials, where does one find the time?  

 

I looked at CC several times over the years but always opted not to do it. One of the reasons was just what you are noticing--that the pace wouldn't work well for us to be able to pursue the academic depth I wanted. (Speeding like a freight train is a good analogy--I've looked closely at Challenge and it seems even more so) I think the pace works for some, but it wasn't a good fit for my teaching style or my children's learning needs.

 

 

I am not sure we will continue with CC next year but we may have no other choice due to a lack of co-op options/homeschool support groups that are academically rich for my son's age.  Has anyone else had this problem?  How did you solve it?  I know that the program is to prepare for the Challenge program but to be honest I'm not sure I agree or am sold on their philosophy.  CC states that their Challenge students graduate with higher scores (insinuating that others don't) however my oldest son is now a junior in college and did not have a CC/Classical education and is doing well at his private college.  I feel as if I'm in between a rock and a hard place.  What does one do when feeling this way???

 

What I did was opt not to do it. We met social needs in other ways (sometimes elective classes like art or PE, sometimes casual ways--getting together with families, various field trips and outings, youth group & church etc...), and we met academic needs in other ways--in fact, the only year we belonged to a co-op was the year I wanted to do speech with my kids. I'd encourage you to think outside the co-op box for your academic support. I think it's really hard to find that in a co-op setting for one, and without a strong option available to you, try to identify and then meet your need in other ways. I found that a few good friends who also wanted academic excellence and a local support group for general homeschooling support, and also online support helped me a lot. Classes that are more than you want to teach can be outsourced locally at times, or done through video, audio, computer, online or even just a really good program as options. We used a variety of styles of curriculum depending on where I needed more support. 

 

I think sometimes what people need most is confidence.

[YodaGirl]

 

I only have 1 other option for a co-op in my area. In the past, we were members of it. However it got to the point that the classes that were being offered amounted to under-water basket weaving and I just couldn't devote an entire school day to such classes. I wanted more academic support. I wonder if CC could work as a co-op scenario with us doing our own thing during the rest of the week???

Honestly, that's what we do. I've downloaded some things from CC Connected like Trivial Pursuit cards and Fridge Facts, but we really don't use them so much.

 

I think CC is good stuff, but I just haven't bought into like some. Therefore, with the exception of Essentials, it's more of a supplementary co-op. They benefit from public speaking, art, hands-on science, and some team-building activities via review games. We haven't decided if it's going to be worth the money to continue, especially since we attend another co-op later in the week. My youngest is really wanting to continue, though.

[yvonne]

... if our friends weren't all with this program I would drop it and I'm fairly confident our schooling would be better off without it. The money could easily be spent on online classes with actual teachers who know the material.

 

This is another of the difficulties/unintended consequences of CC. CC _does_ provide a ready-made social group and this works out really well in K-6.  You can easily do it as a side thing one day a week and still have time to get some solid academics in on the other days.

 

However, once you hit junior high and high, you no longer have the time to do both--your own solid academics and CC as a supplementary, one-day-a-week, primarily social group.

 

But, if you've started out with CC in the elementary years, you've heavily invested in that social group. What do you do when your kids hit junior high and you want real teachers who know & love their subject?  It's hard to start over from scratch, making new friends with similar academic goals, establishing and nurturing a new social group. If CC's 7th + up programs don't fit your academic goals, you may find yourself in a difficult spot.... drop CC (and lose that social group) to pursue the academics you want or compromise on your academic goals in order to maintain the social network you and your kids have built up over the years.

 

It's a hard spot to be in, but maybe it's worth it. There's a lot to be said for the peer group interaction and friendships kids form in Foundations & Essentials.