Struggling with Foerster's Alg 2 - will switch to Derek Owens help?

[happy7]

We are using Foerster's Algebra 2, and my son is having a hard time. We are in chapter 4, systems of linear equations with three or more variables. We use the Math without Borders lectures. It's hard for me to tell if the problem is with the curriculum or if we just need to keep plugging away. We used Foerster for algebra 1, and it took us 1 1/2 years. He hit a wall about halfway through that book and we had to slow down. He was in 7th grade at the time, so I thought it could just be a maturity issue. We decided to just slow down instead of changing the curriculum. Then we started geometry in January of 8th grade and finished it over the summer before 9th with no problems. Now we are in Algebra 2 with Foerster and again hitting a wall, only earlier than last time. He is a math/science kid who wants to major in engineering or computer programming. He is doing well in his outsourced Biology class and is a good student.

 

I am tempted to switch to Derek Owens, but the price tag is the reason we went with Math without Borders in the first place. How can I know whether changing to DO would help my son? What if we spend the money and it ends up being the same? Has anyone had experience with both who can give me some insight on this?

 

Thank you in advance! 

[EKS]

I suspect it will help.  My older son used MWB for the first few chapters of Algebra II and we ended up switching to Lial (mistake, though he did well with it).  He then used DO for precalculus and got an A.  Having used DO Algebra II with my younger son, I see now that I should have switched to DO Algebra II with the older one instead of moving to Lial.  

[Janeway]

Yes. We switched. It made a big difference.

[Janeway]

Also, I went with the half price option.

[Kendall]

That's a hard chapter. Is he having trouble with other sections, too? I asked about some sections here a week or so ago and have made some changes in what I cover from that chapter and how I cover it.

 

With my two the biggest problem was not being careful. I had them do problems with integer answers until they could work through one carefully enough to get it right. 

 

We did not do section 4-5. We did not do section 4-7, 4-8, or 4-9.  I did show them how to do a problem from section 4-7 and we worked through one problem together in section 4-9.  We only did 3 or 4 problems in 4-10 (though it took several days!). 

 

Kendall 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by matermultorum

[Penguin]

We used Foerster for Algebra II and are now using DO for Precalc (half price option). My son does not like math and finds it difficult. He is liking DO better than having the textbook teach him, but we did not use Math Without Borders so you would be swapping one video based instruction for another, right? That's not exactly what we did so I am not sure how helpful my experience is. I do like the way DO videos distill down the textbook, but I think there was value in learning how to read a math textbook, too.

 

And no matter what we use, it takes longer than it is supposed to. I haven't figured out how to fix that yet!

Edited October 4, 2017 by Penguin

[happy7]

That's a hard chapter. Is he having trouble with other sections, too? I asked about some sections here a week or so ago and have made some changes in what I cover from that chapter and how I cover it.

 

With my two the biggest problem was not being careful. I had them do problems with integer answers until they could work through one carefully enough to get it right. 

 

We did not do section 4-5. We did not do section 4-7, 4-8, or 4-9.  I did show them how to do a problem from section 4-7 and we worked through one problem together in section 4-9.  We only did 3 or 4 problems in 4-10 (though it took several days!). 

 

Kendall 

That's really helpful! How do you know which sections are ok to skip? I am not a math person. I also wouldn't know what a high school student needs to know and what is ok to skip. Would you mind linking to the conversation you had about other sections? That might be helpful to me, too. 

 

He has been having some trouble with earlier sections. Not right at first, but it has definitely gotten harder recently. I can tell that some of his frustration does come from making mistakes that he has to fix (he expressed his frustration that dropping a negative sign or making a slight error in calculation throws the whole thing off). I know that this comes with the territory in upper level math and changing curricula won't necessarily fix this. But what I can't tell for sure is whether the mistakes are a result of this book being a poor fit because there is a disconnect between the instruction and the expectations in the exercises or if he is being careless or some combination of both. 

[happy7]

Yes. We switched. It made a big difference.

 

What do you think made the difference, if you don't mind me asking?

[Janeway]

What do you think made the difference, if you don't mind me asking?

Hi!

 

I am unsure what made the difference. Sorry I did not expand on my answer earlier as I was posting from my phone. I find posting from my phone to be difficult. 

 

He did the first 12 chapters. Then we had a final before moving on to Trig. But he bombed the final. I have no clue what went wrong. I went through and reviewed his past assignments because I had had him save everything. He did everything correctly, but then, it was as if he did not fully grasp it as he could not pass the final. I mean, he was no where near passing the final. He missed almost everything. We then spent the next few months trying to go back and review. Finally, for fall, I threw in the towel and said we would repeat algebra 2, this time, with DO. It went great! I was very thorough. I will definitely use it again with the rest of the children.

 

 He is now enrolled in a brick and mortar school. He is earning high A's, including in math. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Janeway

[Kendall]

Here is the link.http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/658850-should-i-teach-augmented-matrices-in-algebra-2/

 

 

 

[MamaSprout]

What about Larson Intermediate Algebra for Algebra 2? I was able to pick up the text and solutions (which are also free online) for around $40 total, and the Mosely videos are free online: http://www.algebrawithinreach.com/ia6e/

 

I got it is as a back up for Foerster for later this year, but I keep seeing threads like this and think maybe I won't spend the money for the solutions and MWB videos and just go with the Larson. We'll add in statistics from somewhere.

 

All the threads I see on Chalkdust say it's challenging, but the book I have looks very straight-forward? I don't want to short-change dd, who will probably go into a math or science field.

 

We plan to use Derek Owens for Precalculus, but dd learns best from a book with video back up, and DO doesn't use a book for Algebra 2. I need the videos. :o

Edited October 5, 2017 by MamaSprout

[redquilthorse]

I just wanted to post a follow up for people who might find this thread in a google search. We ended up switching to Chalkdust for the remainder of Algebra 2. It made a HUGE difference. He regained his confidence and made it through the rest of the class. He still hit a couple of speed bumps, but nothing major. And once he got past them he was fine. So I would definitely recommend a change for anyone struggling with Foerster's. 

[Free Indeed]

Thanks for updating- so many times we never know if it worked out or not -so it doesn’t always help with our search. ? 

[MarkT]

On 10/5/2017 at 4:12 AM, MamaSprout said:

What about Larson Intermediate Algebra for Algebra 2? I was able to pick up the text and solutions (which are also free online) for around $40 total, and the Mosely videos are free online: http://www.algebrawithinreach.com/ia6e/

 

I got it is as a back up for Foerster for later this year, but I keep seeing threads like this and think maybe I won't spend the money for the solutions and MWB videos and just go with the Larson. We'll add in statistics from somewhere.

I would try some of the MWB stuff later on after doing Larson if student is interested in STEM. IMHO MWB selects some of the harder problems in the text,

[MamaSprout]

On 7/11/2018 at 11:06 AM, MarkT said:

I would try some of the MWB stuff later on after doing Larson if student is interested in STEM. IMHO MWB selects some of the harder problems in the text,

 

We ended up going with the Smith Classics Algebra 2. We're also doing EMF, so we'll see how that goes. Right now, I think she's headed for some sort of engineering or design. She's capable of STEM, but quite visually/ design oriented. As a young teen girl, I just want math to go smoothly so she continues to like it.

Smith is set up in a way she can be more independent, and that motivates her. It's kind of a cross between the set up of Foerster (read and do these examples), and the mathematical approach of Dolciani (some set theory, etc), with better problem sets than Burger. It's not as challenging overall as either Foerster or Dolciani, but does have some challenge problems. I feel like we can supplement more challenge, if needed. Memoria Press sells lesson plans, tests and quizzes, so she doesn't question the assignments. I'm an innocent third party.

I've written before about our lack of math opportunities. She attended an open session prepping for a math contest with a Russian-born professor last winter, and she still talks about it.

We're using the EMF as a "logic" course, so if we need a break from it, I'll definitely look to Foerster. She liked the word problems in the first book.

[MarkT]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 3:45 AM, MamaSprout said:

 

We ended up going with the Smith Classics Algebra 2. We're also doing EMF, so we'll see how that goes. Right now, I think she's headed for some sort of engineering or design. She's capable of STEM, but quite visually/ design oriented. As a young teen girl, I just want math to go smoothly so she continues to like it.

Smith is set up in a way she can be more independent, and that motivates her. It's kind of a cross between the set up of Foerster (read and do these examples), and the mathematical approach of Dolciani (some set theory, etc), with better problem sets than Burger. It's not as challenging overall as either Foerster or Dolciani, but does have some challenge problems. I feel like we can supplement more challenge, if needed. Memoria Press sells lesson plans, tests and quizzes, so she doesn't question the assignments. I'm an innocent third party.

I've written before about our lack of math opportunities. She attended an open session prepping for a math contest with a Russian-born professor last winter, and she still talks about it.

We're using the EMF as a "logic" course, so if we need a break from it, I'll definitely look to Foerster. She liked the word problems in the first book.

MamaSprout - Do you also have Smith Classics Algebra 1?  and/or Foerster Algebra 1? I am doing some volunteer stuff for a middle school. send MarkT a PM thanks

[prairiewindmomma]

We are using Chalkdust—finished up Algebra 2 and we are moving on to Pre-Calc. DO is our back up plan, simply because he *is* responsive to questions, and can pinpoint where breakdowns in understanding are occurring.

[BVincent]

One idea for Algebra, which has worked very well for us (in trying to keep with the Foerster's books) has been the Math Without Borders flashdrives.  I particularly liked the section where the author explains how to evaluate a child's understanding of mathematics as a homeschooling parent. Following this guidance, I began asking my sons general questions about the material, and asking them to explain to me in general terms what they were studying and learning (we still have to do many lessons together, and I do have to check that they have actually reworked each problem which they get wrong)  This approach has been very helpful. I would recommend the videos/pdf files in the flash drive. I am not sure that I would have wanted to tackle math at home without this additional help.  

All the best to you