Anyone using TT in the younger grades? If so, when did you start using it?

[StaceyinLA]

I think dd's biggest fear with home schooling is teaching math (at a certain point obviously). I had suggested to her to just go ahead and put dgs in TT as soon as he was ready, and just let him use it throughout. I know it isn't the most strenuous or necessarily best program out there, but I think if he uses it a grade ahead, he'll be able to get through plenty enough to be prepared for college one day. (Thinking ahead - ;-p )

 

Right now, he is doing R&S 1st grade. He started it in K, so they could just work through it at a slower pace and take longer if needed, but he will finish it by mid-year. Do you think he'd be ready for TT 3 at that point, or would you do R&S 2 then maybe go into TT?

 

Has anyone done something else then transitioned to TT at a lower level like this? Just wondering if anyone had started with it that young.

Edited September 2, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[HomeAgain]

Is there something more to this that you're not saying?  It seems an awful big leap to jump to a video program in 2nd because she's worried about teaching higher math.  Why the start so soon?  Why not encourage a program that reinforces her math skills along with his so she can help as much as possible instead of pushing her out of the picture?

[mathmarm]

Sorry but this does seem premature and damaging.

 

In my opinion, elementary arithmetic and algebra should be taught TO children BY informed and capable human teachers.

 

Would his parents consider instead to use some thing like Math U See?

The integer manipulative and DVD instruction for the parents seems like it would be helpful for your daughter and/or son-in-law to get and utilize.

 

It'll help to develop their skills and the parents will be able to assist the students in the arithmetic exercises. The parents will be able to determine that a problem has started, when it occurred and with what topic.

 

A human tutor can usually be found via libraries, community orgs, ps administrations, etc for certain topics that your daughter and son in law KNOW that they can't help with.

 

Parents detaching themselves from a Childs K-3 education in the 3-R skills seems overwhelming like a bad thing, destined to lead nowhere good.

Edited September 3, 2017 by mathmarm

[hollyhock]

I've used it in younger grades but I only use the book, not the CD's. I don't really like the idea of having my 3rd grader do math on the computer without me. We started last year with my 9yo in the 3rd grade book and he did great! He had previously done Math Mammoth 2, but I was going to have him repeat 2B, because he didn't get a lot of it and it would've been good for him to repeat. But instead I switched to TT for 3rd grade, and it was right at his level. He did awesome. The spiral was perfect. Occasionally, he needed extra practice with new concepts, but then I just made up extra problems off the top of my head.

 

I think doing R&S 2 would be better than skipping from R&S 1 to TT3, but that's just me. There are placements tests, so maybe try doing that and see how he does.

[ebrindam]

I think that if a parent isn't confident and/or doesn't want feel comfortable doing the intensive hands-on teaching in the early years, that the child truly might be better off in a b&m school or hiring a tutor. I wouldn't skip from Grade 1 to Grade 3 in any math program unless the child is excelling at math and has done a placement test. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by ebrindam

[StaceyinLA]

Well, this is not something she has decided for sure, and she could certainly use the workbooks at that age. I think the main reason we've talked about this is because if she knows she wants to do something like this down the road, she'd like to get in the program of choice and stick with it. My kids used TT during part of high school and really liked it.

 

This is not an issue of the parent not wanting to home school. My girls both very much want to home school. I think this particular dd is just more concerned about her ability to teach higher maths down the road. It seems like when you switch programs often, there is always something that's been presented differently, or not covered in certain levels in some programs as much as others. I think she figures that starting this as early as she can and using it throughout makes the most sense as far as consistency.

 

Now, I was merely asking about the R&S 1 into TT 3 because I know a lot of people use TT a grade ahead. Most likely he will do the rest of his R&S 1 this semester then start R&S 2 and will maybe move into the TT 3 whenever he has covered everything on the placement test. I was asking about it because I didn't know what others had done, and how "on level" it was in the lower grades.

[StaceyinLA]

I think that if a parent isn't confident and/or doesn't want feel comfortable doing the intensive hands-on teaching in the early years, that the child truly might be better off in a b&m school or hiring a tutor. I wouldn't skip from Grade 1 to Grade 3 in any math program unless the child is excelling at math and has done a placement test.

This is not becasue she isn't confident teaching. It's more because she knows she may not feel confident with the higher levels and would like to just put him in a single program and use it throughout. TT is the program she'd like to use. Why not start it in a younger grade rather than switch to it later?

[StaceyinLA]

Is there something more to this that you're not saying? It seems an awful big leap to jump to a video program in 2nd because she's worried about teaching higher math. Why the start so soon? Why not encourage a program that reinforces her math skills along with his so she can help as much as possible instead of pushing her out of the picture?

Again, it's more about wanting one program she can stick with for the long haul, and when the best time to make that switch would be. She isn't necessarily interested in the computer aspect of the program at this point.

 

And why, down the road, wouldn't this program help reinforce her math skills if she watches lessons along with him? Wouldn't the teaching be a plus?

[HomeAgain]

Again, it's more about wanting one program she can stick with for the long haul, and when the best time to make that switch would be. She isn't necessarily interested in the computer aspect of the program at this point.

 

And why, down the road, wouldn't this program help reinforce her math skills if she watches lessons along with him? Wouldn't the teaching be a plus?

 

It could, but it is doubtful.  There is a tendency to *not* sit and watch the lessons when they are presented at a 2nd grade level (like TT3 is), but let the child do it and then help if they get stuck.  This builds a habit of being passive and absent, instead of engaged with the process.  That absence can snowball quickly and that's when the child learns to game the program.  Nobody learns.  Not only that, but TT takes out the physical manipulatives, which an elementary child should have steady access to.

 

If she is switching from Rod & Staff, I'd encourage her to find a program to stick with through elementary that requires her presence, and then look for a solid pre-algebra to calculus program.  There is almost nothing that would be missed that way, and there are better programs available that hold online classes with a live teacher that a child can ask questions of.

 

But I think she'd get more out of asking these questions herself on here and learning how to research various methods and schools of thought.  She should be the one researching, not a parent who isn't involved in the day to day.

 

[wendyroo]

And why, down the road, wouldn't this program help reinforce her math skills if she watches lessons along with him? Wouldn't the teaching be a plus?

 

IMO, because TT is known for not being very rigorous or conceptual.  It would be like a parent who is not a strong reader watching sight word videos along with her child.  That won't teach the parent (or the child) the foundational phonics concepts that would strengthen her reading ability.  What the parent needs to do, even though it is scary, is step out of her comfort zone and start relearning reading (or math) conceptually in order to build a stronger foundation than the one she currently struggles with.

 

Instead of TT, what about Math Mammoth?  It is a strong, conceptual, easy to implement curriculum.  It is written to the student, so in the later grades a student can work through it largely independently.  It will take a student from first grade through prealgebra.  Plus it is very inexpensive and offers generous samples to try before you buy.

 

Wendy

[StaceyinLA]

It could, but it is doubtful. There is a tendency to *not* sit and watch the lessons when they are presented at a 2nd grade level (like TT3 is), but let the child do it and then help if they get stuck. This builds a habit of being passive and absent, instead of engaged with the process. That absence can snowball quickly and that's when the child learns to game the program. Nobody learns. Not only that, but TT takes out the physical manipulatives, which an elementary child should have steady access to.

 

If she is switching from Rod & Staff, I'd encourage her to find a program to stick with through elementary that requires her presence, and then look for a solid pre-algebra to calculus program. There is almost nothing that would be missed that way, and there are better programs available that hold online classes with a live teacher that a child can ask questions of.

 

But I think she'd get more out of asking these questions herself on here and learning how to research various methods and schools of thought. She should be the one researching, not a parent who isn't involved in the day to day.

 

I appreciate the input, although, like I said, her intention wasn't to just stick him in front of the videos at this level.

 

As far as my asking the questions, I am actually very involved, and help teach him some days every week. My daughter asks me to help her with programs and scheduling and things like that, as she is really just getting started with 3 young children, and is pretty much a single parent since her husband is away 6 days/week. She doesn't always have time to do research like I do.

 

I also home schooled my kids until college, so I suppose she values my opinion.

[StaceyinLA]

IMO, because TT is known for not being very rigorous or conceptual. It would be like a parent who is not a strong reader watching sight word videos along with her child. That won't teach the parent (or the child) the foundational phonics concepts that would strengthen her reading ability. What the parent needs to do, even though it is scary, is step out of her comfort zone and start relearning reading (or math) conceptually in order to build a stronger foundation than the one she currently struggles with.

 

Instead of TT, what about Math Mammoth? It is a strong, conceptual, easy to implement curriculum. It is written to the student, so in the later grades a student can work through it largely independently. It will take a student from first grade through prealgebra. Plus it is very inexpensive and offers generous samples to try before you buy.

 

Wendy

I have heard this a lot over the years, but I know many families that have used TT with great success. I used it with a couple of mine in high school (they didn't have as many levels then), and really liked it.

 

I think one thing that is helpful is having a program and being able to stick with it instead of jumping around from program to program. Dd knows this is something she can use from now until (early on with no videos, but adding videos later as needed). I think that is part of the appeal.

 

I'll have her look at MM though. It's not one that was around when mine were home schooling, or at least not that I recall.

Edited September 3, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[YodaGirl]

Your daughter's concern was one of my own. I was a decent math student. I made it through high school pre-cal and college algebra, but teaching math? Nope. That was something incredibly different.

 

I pulled my youngest out of public school at the end of K, and I started her on Math in Focus 1A/1B in first grade. Using the teacher editions as a crutch, I was able to teach it effectively. That sounds lame, I know. A TE for 1st grade math? But, I wanted her to know how to do it correctly. Plus, it helped me grow with her. As problems became more complicated, I understood them and the methods to teaching them. That comes in pretty handy now that she's in 5th grade. Some days I wonder if I really am smarter than a 5th grader. ;)

 

After tons of research (and with 2 kiddos and commitments to multiple organizations, I understand limited time), I had decided to go with Saxon with Saxon Teacher when she hit 4th. I tried it last year, and ya know what? I preferred teaching it, and she preferred me to the CD-ROM. Now, the plan is for me to continue teaching all the way through. We're back to Math in Focus with the plan to move to AoPS.

 

My point is that I think she'll surprise herself with what she can do. If she doesn't, there are SO many good options out there. I honestly wouldn't switch until I had to.

[lmrich]

Probably not what she wants to hear... do not borrow trouble. If possible, try to encourage her to NOT worry about the future so much. I get that she wants to find a program she loves and stick with it, but, honestly, new curriculum and new technology emerges as well as she will want to figure out what kind of learner her kids are. I vote for her to use the next level of R&S and learn along with her child and then select what is best for the next year. I bet she is smarter than she thinks is. 

[KathyBC]

While we did various things, TT5 seemed like the best spot to switch. (Inserting the TT disclaimer: I sat through the lesson and the first couple questions to ensure understanding, was available for help, then checked over the results when complete. Tests were done in the book.)

 

I agree that K-3 or even K-4 are best with lots of hands-on, one-on-one. If things are going well with R&S and it were me, I would keep going with what is working. Having a rough idea of where we're going in the background, subject to change as needs arise, sounds like a good plan to me.

Edited September 4, 2017 by KathyBC

[Farrar]

This reminds me a little of a family I know where the kid was like, I don't want college to be the first time I go to school. Okay. So they ended up sending the kids to elementary school. (I still think there was probably more to this, and obviously, their prerogative, but this was seriously their explanation.)

 

I think the whole idea of using a single math program all the way through is massively overrated. I'm not sure why some people are so fixated on it. Even in a strongly mastery based program, there are topics that will come up every year and be reviewed to some extent. Sure, if you program hop to half a dozen programs in as many years, you might have more gaps. But if you change a couple of times to meet your needs? Seriously, it's fine.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using TT in the right situation. But I think it's always better to make a choice for positive reasons of something being the right thing than for the negative reason of being afraid. There's no reason here to use TT other than fear. And it's an irrational fear. Unless the mom has a really serious learning difference or processing issue, she can almost certainly teach for at least another couple of years of math. And she'll have to support her kids for longer so tackling her own math phobia would be a positive thing for everyone.

[StaceyinLA]

Thanks again for the input. After talking with her and sharing all the information, the plan is definitely to stick with R&S for a while. I think when he does move, she will likely move him to TT, but he will have at least a couple more years of R&S under his belt, and can take the placement tests and go in the appropriate level at that time.

 

Dd is doing fine with it all - I think she is just letting her worries about the future kind of take over. There is definitely no sense in that at this point; dgs is doing well, and is actually already ahead of the game in his math. I think they'll both be fine! ;-p

 

 

[Guest]

Switch to BJU now for 2nd. Use the dvd/online teaching. Call math a win. I am also NOT a fan of computer teaching math. BJU is a person. My dd is finishing up BJU 2 with Mrs. Walker. She has learned so much more than she would have with R&S 2. I'm sorry, but R&S is behind other grade level "mainstream" programs (as is TT, from my experience) and that is ok (I am not slamming or shaming anyone who chooses to use these. Just my opinion and experience. YMMV.) It is great for arithmatic but from my experience, the child is going to have a hard time switching to a more "mainstream" program later or be behind. I would also agree that R&S is not easy for a non-mathy person to teach the higher up you go. The lack of a full solutions manual and answers to board problems are hinderances for sure! 

 

I agree it is better to find a program you like and stick with it. OTOH, no need to stress about upper maths now. So much can change over the years.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Paradox5

[Spryte]

I might have a slightly different take on this.  Maybe.

 

We used MUS and Right Start in K - 2.  So DS had that foundation, and then when I needed a less fussy (read: less manipulative) approach, and I think DS did, too - we switched to TT3.  But - and this is a big but - we didn't only do TT3.  First, my kiddo was never the type to sit and do anything alone, so we did each TT lesson together.  We also read Life of Fred, and did Beast Academy together.  He watched Mathtacular DVDs, and we read math readers a la the Living Math website plans.  We did coordinating math sticker books, made math projects, and went to math circles, later her read the Murderous Maths books.  So, yeh, we did TT, but we did a lot of other math activities.  

 

My DS is in 8th, and still does a ton of math activities outside of TT, but we still use TT.  I don't do every lesson with him anymore, but every 4th or 5th lesson we do as buddy math, and I am in the room with him while he does it.  I know he's engaged.  It's not a perfect program, and I'm aware of it's drawbacks, but I've also read some success stories.   And - my DS likes it.  It works for him.  So, we supplement a lot, as he wants it, for fun.  

 

So, I have a first grader now, and she adores math.  She does not do TT, because - first grade.  But she is dying to start TT.  She is flying through her current math (we are using Mathematical Reasoning, Level B for first grade, specifically because the folks at TT recommended it to get ready for TT.  I do plan to start her on TT3 in 2nd grade.  She is a mathy girl, anyway, but I think even if she were not - a second grade start on TT3 would be fine for an average student.  I wouldn't set them loose on it alone, I'd plan on actively participating in lessons, like I did with DS.  I also plan to read Life of Fred, do BA, math readers, etc - because that's just what we do around here, apparently.  :)

 

Then again, I don't feel married to the idea of TT, and if it looks like she'll benefit from another approach, or splitting off later - that's okay, too.  We're not very rigid here, and I reassess needs every year.  

 

 

[StaceyinLA]

I really appreciate that post. Dd actually has Life of Fred also.

 

I've never really heard of R&S being behind, but dgs did start the 1st grade in K; mainly because the approach is gentle. I've always heard it was a pretty good program.

 

I'm going to look at the Mathematical Reasoning if for no other reason than because they recommend it as a precursor to TT. Even if dd starts it next year in second grade, she will likely just get the text.

 

Dgs is still using his R&S, and may keep that up along with some extras until he is ready for TT, just because dd may not want to jump around - maybe we can just add the Mathematical Reasoning or some other supplemental stuff.

[Spryte]

You know, there was some other option that was recommended specifically as a precursor to TT.  Something other than Mathematical Reasoning - I just cannot for the life of me remember what it was, or find it on their site again in a quick search (I just skimmed, and can't figure out where I found it - I might actually have emailed them and asked).  I do think if you check out the Timberdoodle website, they might address that question because they use TT starting in grade 2 or 3, so they have to make recommendations re: what to use before that.  

 

The MR is very easy to implement and DD loves it - it's very colorful and she finds it engaging.  I chose it because it was a good fit for DD, but I think almost anything would be fine.  I didn't want to do MUS and/or Right Start again, but I was open to everything else.   I have read some good reviews about MR, but then I've also read that some people don't like the way it changes topics frequently.  The manufacturer says that if you choose, you can keep going with a topic, rather than going in order, but we've just done the pages in order. I aim for 2 pages a day, but DD begs and begs for more, so we generally do 6 - 8 pages per day, and she'd honestly keep going but we have other things to do, so we stop.   :)  It's probably not a perfect program, but we've been happy with it so far, and since we aim for a math rich environment I feel like she's in good shape.

 

She does like to make connections between MR and what we've been reading.  We use the book lists over at Living Math, and have a lot of those readers, so often if we do something in MR, she'll remind me that she's already learned about it from X book... That's kind of fun.   :)

Edited September 7, 2017 by Spryte

[StaceyinLA]

I think I'll check the Timberdoodle site for sure. I know they highly recommend TT, so you're probably right that they'll make a good suggestion for something to use beforehand.