Religion and LGBTQ

[Scarlett]

I really am sorry you experienced that.

 

Your response does assume privilege. That the spouse is not financially dependent on the abuser. That the spouse will seek redress somehow, either legally or by other means. Or perhaps even that the abuse is not severe. And people get away with severe abuse. I don't know how often that happens but it happens.

 

The severely abused women I've known have been victims in more ways than one...financially, emotionally, physically, mentally.

Ok, well you are now off on another part of abuse. I do know women are trapped by abuse....but I was talking about religiously she doesn't have to stay.

[quark]

Ok, well you are now off on another part of abuse. I do know women are trapped by abuse....but I was talking about religiously she doesn't have to stay.

 

Thankfully, there are a number of women who can avoid becoming completely trapped.

 

Just curious, are you only considering Christians of a certain socio-economic background in your responses?

[Scarlett]

Thankfully, there are a number of women who can avoid becoming completely trapped.

 

Just curious, are you only considering Christians of a certain socio-economic background in your responses?

Well, I am actually just referring to the women of my own faith because that is where my experience is. And I don't view any of my faith through a socio-economic lens. If a woman was being abused she would have assistance from her spiritual family regardless of her socio-economic background.

[TranquilMind]

No, but her entire life is on hold and her future is dependent on HIS behavior, even though she is the victim. 

 

Is she supposed to hire a PI to follow him around and try to catch him in the act of screwing someone else so she will have proof of her right to move on with her life? What if he moves to another state and she doesn't know where he is? Then she's just stuck spending her life alone and never having kids because she was a victim of abuse? How could that ever be considered fair or just or kind?

Does she have to marry immediately upon separation? 

 

It's pretty obvious that it is easy to find people today and public records are public.   He will marry someone else.  Or shack up with someone else.  Situation resolved. 

[Charlie]

Well, I am actually just referring to the women of my own faith because that is where my experience is. And I don't view any of my faith through a socio-economic lens. If a woman was being abused she would have assistance from her spiritual family regardless of her socio-economic background.

 

What wold this assistance look like? Let's say I'm a JW woman and tell the elders of my community that my husband hits me and hurts me when he's angry sometimes. Would I be required to produce two witnesses if my husband denies this accusation? Could I face consequences for falsely accusing him if there were no witnesses? If abuse was established, would I be encouraged to pursue secular (police) assistance? If I said he abused me through psychological tactics like gaslighting and praying on the  anxieties he creates, but he didn't ever hurt me physically, would that be considered by the elders as abuse?

 

 

I'm wondering because the various news agencies have lately exposed JW's approach to widespread child sexual abuse to be that of systematically assisting the abusers, similarly to how the Catholic church was found to operate in Boston and many other cities. I wonder how women fair differently in your church.

[Scarlett]

What wold this assistance look like? Let's say I'm a JW woman and tell the elders of my community that my husband hits me and hurts me when he's angry sometimes. Would I be required to produce two witnesses if my husband denies this accusation? Could I face consequences for falsely accusing him if there were no witnesses? If abuse was established, would I be encouraged to pursue secular (police) assistance? If I said he abused me through psychological tactics like gaslighting and praying on the anxieties he creates, but he didn't ever hurt me physically, would that be considered by the elders as abuse?

 

 

I'm wondering because the various news agencies have lately exposed JW's approach to widespread child sexual abuse to be that of systematically assisting the abusers, similarly to how the Catholic church was found to operate in Boston and many other cities. I wonder how women fair differently in your church.

Elders don't control people. She doesn't have to even discuss it with the elders. If she is being abused she can leave. No one will tell her to sta or to leave, but if my sister needs help I will give it to her.

 

Your other question is about congregational discipline which is a different matter. People sometimes commit wrongs/sins and cover up said sin. Adultery, abusing ones mate, abusing children. It is not always easy to prove these things.

 

And it is not true that there is widespread child sexual abuse or that abusers are assisted. That is an inflammatory statement. I am sure there have been cases mishandled. But I can tell you that if my child reported abuse to me by anyone my first phone call would be to the police.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Scarlett

[Corraleno]

Does she have to marry immediately upon separation? 

 

It's pretty obvious that it is easy to find people today and public records are public.   He will marry someone else.  Or shack up with someone else.  Situation resolved. 

 

So it's the victim's responsibility to track him down, wherever he lives, and somehow provide proof to her church that he had sex with someone else, in order to be permitted to ever marry again. And if she doesn't know where he lives, she can just search all the databases of every state over and over hoping his name eventually turns up in the marriage records. Or hope he has a FB page, with his real name, where he explicitly brags about sleeping with other women. And she'd better pray hard that he doesn't end up in jail, because she will basically serve the same sentence he does, since she'd have no way to prove he had sex in prison.

 

It truly boggles my mind that people would consider punishing the victim of domestic abuse all over again, possibly for life, because God doesn't consider being beaten, even to the point of serious or life-threatening injuries, as legitimate grounds for divorce. If your husband sleeps with someone else, even once, you're free to move on with your life. But if he nearly kills you and ends up in jail? Sucks to be you.

[TranquilMind]

So it's the victim's responsibility to track him down, wherever he lives, and somehow provide proof to her church that he had sex with someone else, in order to be permitted to ever marry again. And if she doesn't know where he lives, she can just search all the databases of every state over and over hoping his name eventually turns up in the marriage records. Or hope he has a FB page, with his real name, where he explicitly brags about sleeping with other women. And she'd better pray hard that he doesn't end up in jail, because she will basically serve the same sentence he does, since she'd have no way to prove he had sex in prison.

 

It truly boggles my mind that people would consider punishing the victim of domestic abuse all over again, possibly for life, because God doesn't consider being beaten, even to the point of serious or life-threatening injuries, as legitimate grounds for divorce. If your husband sleeps with someone else, even once, you're free to move on with your life. But if he nearly kills you and ends up in jail? Sucks to be you.

You are free to move on with your life. 

 

If he nearly kills you and is imprisoned, he has violated his vows and he should be avoided.   

 

2 Timothy 3:1-5 – The essence of this passage says that there will be people who profess Christ but are all smoke and mirrors. Paul tells us to avoid such people. 

 

Ephesians 5:11 – Paul says that we are “not to participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead expose them.â€

 

Proverbs 22:10 – “Drive out a scoffer and strife will go out and quarreling and abuse will cease.â€

 

Proverbs 22:24-25 – “Make no friendship with a man given to anger, nor go with a wrathful man, lest you learn his ways and entangle yourself in a snare.â€

 

Proverbs 14:7 – “Leave the presence of a fool, for there you do not meet word of knowledge.â€

 

 2 Thessalonians 3:6  “Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.†

 

Titus 3:10 states, “As for the person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warmed and sinful; he is self-condemned.â€

 

1 Corinthians 5:11 “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler – not even to eat with such a one.†

And even when sticking directly to Jesus' reason - fornication- it's pretty easy to verify especially today. 

 

 

[Scarlett]

So it's the victim's responsibility to track him down, wherever he lives, and somehow provide proof to her church that he had sex with someone else, in order to be permitted to ever marry again. And if she doesn't know where he lives, she can just search all the databases of every state over and over hoping his name eventually turns up in the marriage records. Or hope he has a FB page, with his real name, where he explicitly brags about sleeping with other women. And she'd better pray hard that he doesn't end up in jail, because she will basically serve the same sentence he does, since she'd have no way to prove he had sex in prison.

 

It truly boggles my mind that people would consider punishing the victim of domestic abuse all over again, possibly for life, because God doesn't consider being beaten, even to the point of serious or life-threatening injuries, as legitimate grounds for divorce. If your husband sleeps with someone else, even once, you're free to move on with your life. But if he nearly kills you and ends up in jail? Sucks to be you.

Here is the thing. A person who belongs to a religion who believes that only adultery is grounds for divorce/remarriage does not feel like a victim when she honors the vows she willingly took. Both the vow to her ( using her but it applies to both genders) husband and to her God. . If her husband beats her sure she is a victim and hopefully she gets out of that situation. But staying true to her own vow doesn't make her a victim. It makes her a person of integrity,

 

You painted a worse case scenario....but that isnt how it usually plays out.

[Charlie]

Elders don't control people. She doesn't have to even discuss it with the elders. If she is being abused she can leave. No one will tell her to sta or to leave, but if my sister needs help I will give it to her.

 

Your other question is about congregational discipline which is a different matter. People sometimes commit wrongs/sins and cover up said sin. Adultery, abusing ones mate, abusing children. It is not always easy to prove these things.

 

And it is not true that there is widespread child sexual abuse or that abusers are assisted. That is an inflammatory statement. I am sure there have been cases mishandled. But I can you that if my child reported abused to me by anyone my first phone call would be to the police.

 

I didn't suggest elders control people. You said an abused wife would have assistance from her spiritual family. I'm asking what that assistance might look like. You say no one will tell her to stay, but when I was curious poked around on google I found a Watchtower magazine article about abuse that implies staying should be advised."Jehovah’s Witnesses, the publishers of this magazine, believe that the Bible’s practical advice can help violent spouses change their behavior."

 

You said an abused wife would have assistance from her spiritual family. Do JW churches offer resources and aide to women to get on their feet and be able to live independently from abusive husbands? Do they offer resources to help them keep children safe by helping them with various practical things needed for a newly single mothers? Do they offer any other practical assistance so she isn't functionally trapped? I'm trying to understand what this assistance might look like because you say a woman isn't trapped in an abusive relationship, but you say it almost like saying a woman isn't trapped in staying on a ship in the middle of an ocean, either. She can jump anytime.

 

The widespread child sexual abuse is true, and has been recorded in courts across the globe, regardless of how you might personally address such an issue.

[Scarlett]

I didn't suggest elders control people. You said an abused wife would have assistance from her spiritual family. I'm asking what that assistance might look like. You say no one will tell her to stay, but when I was curious poked around on google I found a Watchtower magazine article about abuse that implies staying should be advised."Jehovah’s Witnesses, the publishers of this magazine, believe that the Bible’s practical advice can help violent spouses change their behavior."

 

You said an abused wife would have assistance from her spiritual family. Do JW churches offer resources and aide to women to get on their feet and be able to live independently from abusive husbands? Do they offer resources to help them keep children safe by helping them with various practical things needed for a newly single mothers? Do they offer any other practical assistance so she isn't functionally trapped? I'm trying to understand what this assistance might look like because you say a woman isn't trapped in an abusive relationship, but you say it almost like saying a woman isn't trapped in staying on a ship in the middle of an ocean, either. She can jump anytime.

 

The widespread child sexual abuse is true, and has been recorded in courts across the globe, regardless of how you might personally address such an issue.

Yes we help our people. In many many practical ways. All of the ways you mentioned.

 

The article you linked was addressing domestic violence and that people can change. It was not primarily about whether an abuse victim should go, but it did state if she needs to go she of course should go.

[Charlie]

Yes we help our people. In many many practical ways. All of the ways you mentioned.

 

The article you linked was addressing domestic violence and that people can change. It was not primarily about whether an abuse victim should go, but it did state if she needs to go she of course should go.

 

I'm having trouble finding any such resources online. Can you share one?

 

[Scarlett]

I'm having trouble finding any such resources online. Can you share one?

 

I don't know what you mean. We help through our local congregation. Why would that be on line?

[Charlie]

I don't know what you mean. We help through our local congregation. Why would that be on line?

 

Same reason the Watchtower magazine or any church advice is online - it's meant to help any who seek the truth. I can't find any reference to such a thing as you say, only references to the opposite. You're being so vague that I'm looking for answers to my questions elsewhere.

[Scarlett]

Same reason the Watchtower magazine or any church advice is online - it's meant to help any who seek the truth. I can't find any reference to such a thing as you say, only references to the opposite. You're being so vague that I'm looking for answers to my questions elsewhere.

LOL.....do as you please. I don't know what is vague about telling you we help each other through the local congregation. As needed.

[Greta]

I don't know what happened. All I know is if he wasn't scripturally free he was free to remarry. So if that was allowed then it was wrong. And if no one called him to task for that they have to answer for that. Congregations are made up of humans who make mistakes. Btw, we don't belive God's organization can do no wrong.

 

As for your comment about disfellowshipping being the usual course of action against adulterers that is just not true. It really depends on so many factors and of course repentance is required. I have known of situations up close and personal with all sorts of outcomes. My Dhs now xw committed adultery and wasn't df'd. My experience, especially in recent years is there is error on the side of mercy more so than the other way around.

 

And yes sometimes it seems someone 'gets away with somethng'. Of course they don't really because God knows.

 

I sure can't explain your cousin not being allowed to remarry. Are you saying even after he remarried she wasn't allowed to? Are you sure he was baptized?

 

I'm sorry if I was unclear about the remarriage part.  What I mean is that, upon her divorce, she was told that she was NOT free to remarry, because technically adultery had not been committed (it had, she had suspected it for some time, then came home early one day and caught him in bed with another woman, he said "the underwear never came off", they believed him not her).  Later, the ex-husband got remarried, and only then was she free to remarry.  He was not publicly disciplined in any way, neither for the adultery, nor for getting remarried when he wasn't scripturally free from the first marriage.  That's why I'm saying it makes no sense:  they ruled that adultery didn't happen, so allegedly the marriage was still valid.  But then they allowed him to remarry.  (And yes, he was baptized.)

 

Anyway, once he remarried, she was then free, and thankfully she is now happily remarried to a wonderful man and they have two beautiful children.  It took some time, but she got her happily ever after, and I am so grateful for that, because she is a loving, gentle, honest, hard-working woman who deserved a lot better than what she initially got.

 

My comment about disfellowshipping being the usual course of action against adulterers most certainly was true.  But most (not all, but the vast majority) of my experiences regarding this were back in the 80's.  I am certainly willing to concede that things may well have changed since then.

 

I know that "God's organization can do no wrong" is not the official doctrine.  But I also know that anyone who points out anything wrong that God's organization has done gets slapped with a scarlet letter A:  APOSTATE!  When people are not free to criticize, it's the same thing as saying "we're always right".

 

 

Edited for a typo.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Greta

[Charlie]

LOL.....do as you please. I don't know what is vague about telling you we help each other through the local congregation. As needed.

 

Because you're not saying what that help looks like, despite my asking. You say you'd help your sister, but what would a person who doesn't have family expect? Would a church ignore the WM articles that advise couples to study the bible better? Would a church encourage an abused wife to go to the police? Does the church expect two witnesses for such an accusation to be accepted? These are the questions I'm asking. Do you even know women who have come forward in your church to ask for help with abuse in the home? Do you know what they experienced?

[Scarlett]

By sister I meant spiritual sister. I know of a few . Myself being one.

 

The most recent one I can think of is a woman who left her abusive husband.... she had a teen daughter. The congregation helped her find a place to live and threw her a housewarming to supply her with basics .

[Rosie_0801]

It is highly doubtful that a man who beats his wife is also going to remain faithful to her if she leaves him. But either way she has the responsibility to stay true to the vows she made. That is called integrity. It isn't being a victim.

 

There are some very high prices to be paid for integrity. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am always amused at how much importance some Christians place on marriage, but when the discussion involves those who they say can't marry due to their interpretation of scripture, suddenly they want to dismiss marriage as not being important at all.

[Slartibartfast]

I often feel like the people who tend to participate in these sort of discussions are the last people that are going to be helpful to the OP...or any woman.

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I often feel like the people who tend to participate in these sort of discussions are the last people that are going to be helpful to the OP...or any woman.

I think they often tend to attract the more extreme, more vocal types commenting over and over. We more moderate Christians maybe need to learn to speak up more.

[Laura Corin]

Fornication and homosexuality are both sins.    Both are told to just stop doing that stuff. 

 

I'm not sure what you are asking. 

 

 

I'll try to be clearer.  Please note that I am referring to Tranquil Mind throughout not as an attack but in order to define the discussion more clearly, as she asked.  Two couples:

 

Married Couple A - Straight

• Previously divorced, on grounds that are unclear to us; the people concerned may or may not be committing fornication in TM's scriptural terms
• Legally married
• TM says: How do I feel?  I feel that it is between the person and God.   He knows if he is in sin or not for his actions. The conscience combined with biblical truth is a powerful force.  If so, he needs to make it right insofar as possible. Obviously, if people have remarried others, it's not going to be restored. 
• So they could be in sin, but TM thinks it's their business alone - between them and their beliefs 
• TM believes that the government should allow their divorces and marriage even if they are unscriptural, although she hopes for different leaders in the future who might realign the laws (I'm ready to be corrected on this)

Married Couple B - Gay

• Not previously married; the people concerned may or may not be committing fornication in TM's scriptural terms
• Legally married
• So they could be in sin, but TM seems not to think it's their business alone - between them and their beliefs (I'm ready to be corrected on this) 
• TM believes that the government should not allow their marriage as it is unscriptural, and is unprepared to wait for different leaders in the future who might realign the laws (I'm ready to be corrected on this)

[TranquilMind]

 

I'll try to be clearer.  Please note that I am referring to Tranquil Mind throughout not as an attack but in order to define the discussion more clearly, as she asked.  Two couples:

 

Married Couple A - Straight

• Previously divorced, on grounds that are unclear to us; the people concerned may or may not be committing fornication in TM's scriptural terms
• Legally married
• TM says: How do I feel?  I feel that it is between the person and God.   He knows if he is in sin or not for his actions. The conscience combined with biblical truth is a powerful force.  If so, he needs to make it right insofar as possible. Obviously, if people have remarried others, it's not going to be restored. 
• So they could be in sin, but TM thinks it's their business alone - between them and their beliefs 
• TM believes that the government should allow their divorces and marriage even if they are unscriptural, although she hopes for different leaders in the future who might realign the laws (I'm ready to be corrected on this)

Married Couple B - Gay

• Not previously married; the people concerned may or may not be committing fornication in TM's scriptural terms
• Legally married
• So they could be in sin, but TM seems not to think it's their business alone - between them and their beliefs (I'm ready to be corrected on this) 
• TM believes that the government should not allow their marriage as it is unscriptural, and is unprepared to wait for different leaders in the future who might realign the laws (I'm ready to be corrected on this)

 

Thank you for your rational discussion.  That is much appreciated.

 

Perhaps I was unclear. 

 

Couple B is a nonstarter, scripturally.    It does not exist in scripture.  We can't get to the question you are asking because it is invalid, scripturally.  People always say, "Well, Jesus didn't address it."  He didn't have to.  That reality of the Mosaic law was well-established.  Jesus only reiterated the Law, that from the beginning God made them male and female and that they were to become one flesh.  

 

Couple A's relationship does exist in scripture.   Whether they are sinning or not is only known between them and God (unless they just tell people). 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you - I was a bit distracted this weekend.

 

Sexual sin

 

Couple A may be in sexual sin - we don't know

 

Couple B may also be in sexual sin - we don't know.  The article I linked described a gay couple who had decided to live together in a loving relationship but celibate.  This was their decision in conscience as Christians.  Is it sinful for two men to live together companionably?

 

Marriage

 

A separate issue, really:

 

The marriage laws of society are no longer scriptural.  People can't have plural marriages or forced marriages, so some biblical forms of marriage are no longer practised.  They can remarry despite their divorces being unscriptural, so some non-biblical forms of marriage are practised.  That being the case, why is gay marriage any different from any other nonscriptural marriage?

 

 

Thank you for your rational discussion.  That is much appreciated.

 

Perhaps I was unclear. 

Couple B is a nonstarter, scripturally.    It does not exist in scripture.  We can't get to the question you are asking because it is invalid, scripturally.  People always say, "Well, Jesus didn't address it."  He didn't have to.  That reality of the Mosaic law was well-established.  Jesus only reiterated the Law, that from the beginning God made them male and female and that they were to become one flesh.  

 

Couple A's relationship does exist in scripture.   Whether they are sinning or not is only known between them and God (unless they just tell people). 

 

[TranquilMind]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you - I was a bit distracted this weekend.

 

Sexual sin

 

Couple A may be in sexual sin - we don't know

 

Couple B may also be in sexual sin - we don't know.  The article I linked described a gay couple who had decided to live together in a loving relationship but celibate.  This was their decision in conscience as Christians.  Is it sinful for two men to live together companionably?

 

Marriage

 

A separate issue, really:

 

The marriage laws of society are no longer scriptural.  People can't have plural marriages or forced marriages, so some biblical forms of marriage are no longer practised.  They can remarry despite their divorces being unscriptural, so some non-biblical forms of marriage are practised.  That being the case, why is gay marriage any different from any other nonscriptural marriage?

People not engaging in sexual sin but living in the same place are called roommates.   Why would that be objectionable, unless for some reason the "even the appearance of impropriety" comes in.  But on its face, of course it isn't a scriptural proscription. 

 

The marriage laws in this country are based on scriptural principles.   We even read scripture at weddings, how Jesus said a man should leave his mother and father, cling to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.    People have successfully altered that now, at least in a secular sense, but it doesn't change the historical basis or the scriptural analysis of it.    Those are just secular contracts.